The new QB 648 Diablo from Horticulture Lighting Group

SSGrower said:

Im saying a distributed led array is more effective at driving photosynthesis than a hps lamp or other focused source. Take the footprint of the de, make an array that size, the intensity needed to exceed the canopys photosynthetic capacity will be lower for the array.

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This is true at the top of the canopy but in a deeper canopy the lower growth will not see as much light as a more concentrated light source. Let us also not forget the plant can and will redistribute energy. Follow Loki on Instagram he can fill you in. He was also 100% sold on even light distribution but his real world experience has changed his outlook. We are launching the HLG Scorpion in 3-4 weeks . It has a very similar light distribution to these bar style fixtures. It will be the highest efficiency rack style light available. Personally I still prefer the 650R.


Here is a nice little comparison. Note these par charts are in an open area and measured out the the 5X5. Look at the 650R at 30" vs the other fixtures at 24". Also note the spectrum of the other lights. The 650R is really quite a bit warmer white than most of the other lights.

Stephenj37826 said:

You are welcome to create your own lighting company and show us amateurs how it's done.

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Well you are good at marketing. I'll give you that.

Stephenj37826 said:

Do look into angle of incidence and your favorite par meter sensor...... 40% loss from a directional light source is honestly laughable.......

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Plants have the same. If the angle is not correct the photon will just heat up the leave instead of be used for photosynthesis.

Either way, the Zeus Pro 600W was measured in exactly the same way with only 15% loss in a 4x4. Versus 25% loss for the qb.

And yes in a small tent the wall losses are staggering. They just are. The point is more that it's twice as high with a qb than with a properly spread out strip light, but still relatively high.

SSGrower said:

Im saying a distributed led array is more effective at driving photosynthesis than a hps lamp or other focused source. Take the footprint of the de, make an array that size, the intensity needed to exceed the canopys photosynthetic capacity will be lower for the array.

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If you make the light fixture smaller you will need to hang it higher to allow it to spread over the same surface area again.

You won't see any difference in light angles from that high up and that concentrated a light source though. It's essentially focused source again.

That's the problem with QB's, they are basically just enlarged COBs. It's better to cut them in half and create two strips from them. That spreads the light a lot better.

Stephenj37826 said:

Note these par charts are in an open area and measured out the the 5X5.

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Yes and in that case the average PPFD for the 650r is 415.99 (with ridiculous accuracy an symmetry). Which should have been 934 according to the sphere test. So 46% of the light is not measured. What's the point of these matrices.

Those wall-less matrices were what Burple manufacturers came up with to show how "great" their lights were compared to HPS.

And in this case it's the exact same reason that HLG performs "well", the poorly designed light that focuses the light mostly to the center under the light gets the better meaningless score. The light that performs best in these open room tests is almost without exception the worst choice in a real world environment.

For instance the Gavita is 44"x44" that's about 4 times as big as the HLG option. So yes the Gavita light spreads much much better, but when there are no walls, it will lose more light than a center spotlight. While the HLG option has horrible light spread and is therefore penalized much less for there not being any walls.

Besides Gavita should be at 8" or max 10" over the canopy (actually even less would be fine) if it's tested as a solo light in a tent. In large greenhouses it would be fine at 24". The HLG needs to be up high always because it's light is not spread out enough physically by the fixture, it needs to spread out by height.

So poor design gets rewarded by these test that were specifically set up to promote poor design of Burples over HPS and it still does promote poor design.

Put them in something with reflective walls and compare them properly.

Migro does and then we get some numbers we can really use.

wietefras said:

Plants have the same. If the angle is not correct the photon will just heat up the leave instead of be used for photosynthesis.

Either way, the Zeus Pro 600W was measured in exactly the same way with only 15% loss in a 4x4. Versus 25% loss for the qb.

And yes in a small tent the wall losses are staggering. They just are. The point is more that it's twice as high with a qb than with a properly spread out strip light, but still relatively high.

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Leaves are not a static plane.... They can and do move on an hourly basis.....

None of these numbers take into account the direction the photon is traveling in. As @wietefras eludes to the photons will bounce around until something happens. Heating up the leaf a little is not a bad thing at all in my situation I am heat deprived. Photosyntheses requires 4 photons to split the O off water this also requires timing virtually simultaneous interaction, if the photons are lined up one behind another there would be distinct gaps between photon excitements and therefore less effecient at photosynthesis. I can offer no proof of this as it is only my theory.

Stephenj37826 said:

This is true at the top of the canopy but in a deeper canopy the lower growth will not see as much light as a more concentrated light source. Let us also not forget the plant can and will redistribute energy. Follow Loki on Instagram he can fill you in. He was also 100% sold on even light distribution but his real world experience has changed his outlook. We are launching the HLG Scorpion in 3-4 weeks . It has a very similar light distribution to these bar style fixtures. It will be the highest efficiency rack style light available. Personally I still prefer the 650R.

Best LED Grow Lights of 2021 Comparison & Review Test Using Laboratory Data

We're doing something no one has ever done before -- well, sort of. Each LED company that takes its craft seriously focuses on buying high-quality components that will last a long time (read: not fail within 2 years) and have high efficiency/output ratings

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Here is a nice little comparison. Note these par charts are in an open area and measured out the the 5X5. Look at the 650R at 30" vs the other fixtures at 24". Also note the spectrum of the other lights. The 650R is really quite a bit warmer white than most of the other lights.

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So turn the intensity up then, but you cant because you will bleach them. This is a growing style issue not a light defeciency. There are many things that can be done to handle canopy thickness. Yes the plant can transfer energy but nothing is free we can move the energy for the plant if we construct the system correctly. This requires harmony between all aspects of the garden, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Stephenj37826 said:

Leaves are not a static plane.... They can and do move on an hourly basis.....

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Irrelevant.

Either way, the Zeus Pro 600W was measured in exactly the same way with only 15% loss in a 4x4. Versus 25% loss for the qb.

And yes in a small tent the wall losses are staggering. They just are. The point is more that it's twice as high with a qb than with a properly spread out strip light, but still relatively high.

wietefras said:

Irrelevant.

Either way, the Zeus Pro 600W was measured in exactly the same way with only 15% loss in a 4x4. Versus 25% loss for the qb.

And yes in a small tent the wall losses are staggering. They just are. The point is more that it's twice as high with a qb than with a properly spread out strip light, but still relatively high.

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Yeah, you said that a few times now already. Clearly we know which brand you're gonna buy. Hopefully 3 pages of you trolling HLG was enough and you can be done now.

@wietefras
Hey. Can I ask where you're getting all these claims you're making (or "things you're saying", if that sounds better)?

Are you just referencing Migro and his tests?
Are these coming from some type of scientific experiments/tests and you're extrapolating from them? (If so, I really think you should post links to or cite what you're saying/repeating).
Are you reporting back with results of what you've studied, tested and experimented with in your own laboratory and testing facility?

Not sure where this stuff is coming from.

When you say "qb", do you mean a singular "qb"? Are you discussing and comparing a 44"x44" fixture to a single "qb", for example in your last post? Or are you just using "qb" as shorthand for "hlg 550 fixture"?

Just trying to figure out what exactly you're trying to say.

Thanks.

PJ Diaz said:

Yeah, you said that a few times now already. Clearly we know which brand you're gonna buy. Hopefully 3 pages of you trolling HLG was enough and you can be done now.

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I'm not trolling. Just pointing out the obvious.

I got the same nonsense when I went against the stream to say that reflectors on COBs were stupid. I was trolling, didn't know what I was talking about. 6 months later people finnaly started to get it and reflectors started disappearing.

Same happend with thw qb's. From the get go it was clear that strips are much better for distributing light. Hell even COBs do a better job. Cobby showed that 4 Citizen 1212's beat a QB in effiency at half the price. Spread them out and you even cut the wall losses.

By now more and more people start to understand that qb's are an even worse idea than cobs. Or at the very least they understand that strips are better.

Just think, manufacturers always copy the best idea's. Do you see anyone selling board lights besides HLG? In fact even HLG will be jumping on over to the strips bandwagon.

If anyone is trolling (or conning) it's HLG.

2com said:

Just trying to figure out what exactly you're trying to say.

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I have mentioned the references in my posts. But yes Migro and Ledgardner did plenty of real world tests. Are you doubting their numbers? They consistently get 1.9umol/J for supposedly 2.5umol/J in a 4x4 and 1.3umol/J in a 2x2.

For Growcraft X6, Lumatek Zeus 600w Pro and other strip lights do get 2.3umol/J and 2.4umol.J figures. So it's not just magic or bad will from the guys who do the measuring. It's simple practicality like I explained. i'ts also not just one light. Gavita and Fluence lights will be killing that diablo light too if you put them in an actual grow tent.

Also wall losses are a perfectly explainable phenomenon which is even quantifiable in formulas. 4 times the tent size (with the same density of lights) means half the wall losses. It truly follows the flloor area to "lit up wall area" ratio pretty much exactly.

The fact that a 22" square fixture spreads the light less effectively than a 44" square fixture should be basic knowledge. I was referring to the link that HLG themselves posted. The one with the bogus PPFD matrix tests.

The Bruce Bugbee research that he saw up to 25% decrease in yield from lights with 20% of blue in the spectrum was referenced above already. It's a pretty well know research paper from a renowned researcher. Although I admit lately he's been a bit less reliable.

The fact that two long strips spread light better than cramming all those leds in a small rectangle in the center over the same surface area should be basic knowledge. Just think how far the light need to spread to reach the edge and it's clear that cutting that distance in half means the height can be cut in half.

It's all basic knowledge and facts, but agreed in this day and age popularity counts more than facts for someone to be right. Like I said in the previous post. It's starting to dawn on more and more people though. No self respecting manufacturer is developing a board light. It's all strips. They get it.

Thanks

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You're welcome

PJ Diaz said:

Yeah, you said that a few times now already. Clearly we know which brand you're gonna buy. Hopefully 3 pages of you trolling HLG was enough and you can be done now.

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Is there a window open?
I feel a draft of wind...

whats everyones thoughts on this? 3 of them in a 4x4ft

or this instead of

First grow with the 648's is about 2 weeks into flower. She seems to like it

nice boatguy, get a scrog net youre wasting space brother

GsusKristOfTheBooda said:

nice boatguy, get a scrog net youre wasting space brother

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Did that last round.. see my avatar.
This plant on top of what i still have left will satisfy my needs. How much does one person need really?
First time i have grown with a qb, and i was alittle skeptical. Only ever used cobs before this, so the light distance isnt what i was used to.

ive got a new type of board coming, similar to the new scorpion model hlg are bringing out.
it has cpombined r and b spec , its said to outperform the hlg 650 :O