subs supersoil

NaturalFarmer said:

Has anybody done a real soil test with the mix?

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Yes TGA soil was once mass produced by my ex partner and the recipe was analysed by some of the top soil scientist.
In the end the shipping killed the profits he lost his ass and I lost a good friend.

Do my plants look like the soil is out of wack?



Sub

Rasta Roy said:

Yeah dude don't get into it with trolls.

If you're not interested in chatting soil science cause you got better things to do I totally get it. That answer would've shut me up a lot quicker than the "i don't sell this soil" but I get why you're saying that too. Sorry im an ass in conversation, I was just genuinely interested in your thoughts on the matter, even though I may have asked with jabs and sarcasm. My bad.

Investing is what it's all about! You playing with the stocks and bonds markets, or you playing the local game with flipping foreclosed houses and upcoming development projects?

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I buy Blue Chips Like Google, Apple, Amazon, Visa, Express Scripts and McDonalds.
I differ my max IRA contribution each year its like 14K I also can differ like 12K for Jill.
I then use this fund to buy stocks.
It is willed to my kids.

Most people do not save any money in there life, I dont plan to leave my kids nothing like my dad did.

Sub

smink13 said:

I kept at him because I needed to try to do my part in getting an answer. There isn't one, anywhere on the internet. Just to day do some research, I've done a lot. Trust me. Asking a man to explain, shouldn't nor does it imply, that I don't the answers to my questions.

Years ago I abandoned subs method. I found out it didn't work for long periods of time and moved on. I see a forum with people years later still talking about it so trying to get some light shed on the subject by a man who created it and is active on the site, in my opinion was a good thing. He seems to always avoid questions so I kept at it. I'm doing my due diligence to get answers, not just for me but for everyone that tried and wasted money ( but gained somr knowledge) and for the future guy or gal that Google how to grow organic and stumbles on this forum, some clarification.

Sub I'm not attacking, just want a response to the article I posted explaining why some amendments are unnecessary and ecological harmful. I don't know why you keep saying you don't make money off soil in response to buildasoil. Fine, you can claim you dont, I'll go with it, just know the buildasoil article is off his blog that explains your recipe to a T and why things do or do not work. This is a man that is one of our peers and not just me or whoever on a forum.

A simple response was all I was asking for.

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Can You link me to this article?

You do know that these were grown in Super Soil Correct?

I have not used this guys specific recipe or products, but in criticizing Subcool’s recipe, he utilizes several logical fallacies and also misunderstands and misrepresents several important factors in how plants and microbes grow and thrive. Though I think that the writer has a lot of monetary motivation in composing this post, it is good that he gets people actually thinking and building a healthy skepticism, rather than just lapping up the drool from Subcool’s immortal lips without actually processing and and understanding. Anyway, copy and paste this where ever you need to on whatever forum.

1. Using bagged soil is not a problem,
if you look at the ingredients on any bag, it lists the ingredients from highest to lowest quantity in the mix. Second, if you use the eye test, you can generally tell if a soil is hot or not based upon how much moss and aeration components you see in it.

Another thing, just because in nature nutrients generally come from above, not below (ie. mulch and topdressing) this does not mean that this is how things SHOULD be. This is what is called an “Appeal to Nature” fallacy. Just because it occurs like this in nature does not mean that this is the best way. Plants respond well to foliar feeding of non-gaseous nutrients, how often does this happen in nature??

2. Mycos are conditionally symbiotic microbes.
They create large networks that can transport nutrients from one side of the enclosure to the other. They do this with or without the presence of a host plant, regardless if planted in the rootzone or not. THe idea that mycos are a waste if not planted in the root zone, just because that is how most people generally use mycos is a fallacy. People generally only put into the rootzone because you can use less and it saves money. Subcool uses mycos in this case to predigest the nutrients throughout the soil, such as the rock phosphate, the bone meal and other nutrients that take time to break down. Once transplanted, a plant will link with this myco network that is already in place.

3. The wide range of worm castings is kind of odd, but it is known that worm castings are mild plant food that doesn’t generally have the potential to burn plants. Using more is not a real danger to the plant. Plus, if he suggests that you use a range of 6-8 bags of high quality soil, shouldnt there also be a range on how much work casting you use as well?

4. Bone meal.
The writer is correct that fish bone meal is generally safer and healthier for plants, but he mischaracterizes bone and blood meal as coming from “McDonald cows”. THe problem is that fish bone meal has its own set of risks that may be just as bad. They can often contain heavy metals and radioactive isotopes due to constant exposure to the vast pollution in our oceans, and in addition, fish bone meal STINKS!!! My point is that there are risks in any choice you make. This is just a case of the writer trying to knock Subcools soil down a peg. He after all is trying to sell his product online, which is difficult considering using Sub’s excellent recipe, you only need access to a local garden store, which will undoubtedly offer much better prices.

5. ROck phosphate. Okay this ingredient sucks. Research shows that rock phosphate does not break down in a sufficient amount of time to be used for an annual, it is a long term soil ammendment. In addition, environmental research shows that runoff from soils containing rock phosphate poison our water supply. A terrible soil amendment on all levels really.

6. Epsom Salt.
THis is a great point the writer made about Cal/Mag soil composition, and it brings up an interesting discussion. The ideal Ca/Mg ratios are around 7:1.. Epsom is all Mg and Sulfur. This appears to throw the ratio off. However, I have NEVER had tight soil problems, and neither have others. Now this may be for multiple reasons:

a. Tap water generally has ~4x more calcium than magnesium
b. Dolomite has a Ca/Mg ratio of about 2:1. This is still not the right ratio, but it balances the epsom salt a bit. Add in the fact that water has more Ca, it is starting to sound more reasonable.
c. Calcium DOES NOT move through soil or plants easily and most soils already have lots of calcium in them. It only leaches out of the soil or becomes unavailable if there is high levels of Sodium or if the pH of the soil is too low (acidic). Magnesium on the other hand, can move through the soil much easier and leach out.

Add all of these factors together and you can start to see why it doesn’t neccesarily matter early on if there is a lot of magnesium if you only use regular water, these things tend to balance themselves out.
7. The only problem with dolomite is the argument for incorrect Ca/Mg ratios.However, Dolomite is almost ubiquitous in gardens all over the globe. I discussed why Dolomite may actually help with Ca/Mg balance earlier, but also, in my opinion, having an unstable soil pH where you must pH balance your water every day is more miserable and time wasting. I can attest that I have never had tight soil or nute lockout, so while the writer could very well be right that there are better options for a pH buffer, I have not experimented yet.

8. Azomite and other rock dust.
Writer claims these contain heavy metals which is true, but if you look closely, in a full scoop of the dust, heavy metals only make up something like a .00000005 % of the total ingredients which is infintesimal amounts. Heavy metals are in almost all soils without exception, and these are an accepted risk by most when you are smoking something you grow out of the dirt. It is what it is. Skip out on the trace minerals though and you may not notice, but your buds and mycos definitely will….

9. Humic Acid
This is to the poster who said that Humic acid DOESNT “help mycos a lil bit” thats funny and ironic because that is actually exactly what it does, but not in such simple terms. Humic acids are long organic chains that take nutrients (ions) from the soil and form unique complexes. They basically act as a storage locker for available nutrients in the soil so that mycos and plant roots can use them easily and directly.

Anyway, just want you guys to know that you can’t believe everything you read on a site like this. Subcool makes no money off his soil recipe, so if it doesn’t work, his credibility takes a hit, not his wallet. The purpose of this website is to knock Sub’s FREE recipe down a peg to open up the soil market. Regardless of the writer’s true motivation for the post, I think it is good to get people thinking about what they are doing, rather than blindly following, even if it does get you GREATTTT results! I just wish he would write from the perspective of trying to truly educate, not utilize logical fallacy to prove a point.

Done my first round with a short cooked supersoil. The next round got the properly cooked stuff. I actually found a few random seedlings sprouting from it in the darkness of the shed.

I must ask why people hate on each other so much? If you really don't like something that someone is doing why not say your peace and move on? Sub has shown how he grows he's ganja after asked by god knows how many people asked him to share. If you don't like supersoil don't use it do your own thing but no need to cry about a man sharing what he was asked to share.

subcoolgrower said:

I buy Blue Chips Like Google, Apple, Amazon, Visa, Express Scripts and McDonalds.
I differ my max IRA contribution each year its like 14K I also can differ like 12K for Jill.
I then use this fund to buy stocks.
It is willed to my kids.

Most people do not save any money in there life, I dont plan to leave my kids nothing like my dad did.

Sub

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I don't know much about Google and Apple's bottom line (I assume they are successful) but if you could get good money off your McDonald's and Amazon stocks I would sell those if they were mine. McDonald's hasn't been doing well and will most likely continue it's decline. And do you know Amazon has never actually made a profit? They assume they will when they have their delivery service in place, but who knows?

subcoolgrower said:

1.

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Nice Post Sub! I hope you don't mind me chiming in, and please know that I am not a botanist or scientist but just a army veteran and father of three with a small farm and a love for soil and making it produce more yield in any crop I grow. I try to be open source and would love to help people grow better for less money. I started with subcool's recipe and spent a lot of time over the past few years learning from very knowledgeable people (ecompost, slownickel, Dr Cho) that know a lot about soil that goes beyond cannabis. I certainly respect you and Jill and I hope you understand that I'm not trying to do anything but give you a suggestion on making the recipe better. So here is my suggestion to you and anyone.


Peat- Carbon, high CEC, acidic. Canadian Sphagnum tastes like maple (I'm fucking with you, wear a mask or you'll be hacking shit like a coal miner).

Rice Hull- Silica aeration, Holds air for a grow or two.Top dresses nicely as well. Low dust, Can be grown on your farm. Non organic is cheap as shit.

Coco- Fast drying, aerating...neutral pH to counter the peat without much lime

Dolomite Lime- You need some for mag saturation increase the peats pH.

EWC-Store bought bags are almost guaranteed to have fungus gnat eggs but that's life I wouldn't grow without it.

(I have found a 5kg coco block mixed with 5 gal of each makes an incredible nice base.)

Gypsum- 20%-25% Fast acting Calcium and available 15-20% sulfur...which will release the Calcium and bind to ammonia and slow its volatilization. This needs to be in a decent mix for better uptake of other nutrients. If I could eat gypsum and rice hull I would(the rice hull gives me gas)....I love them both.

Bone Char- 19% available P.......screw guano's shipped from a foreign rock, Burned bones are the is the shit. Make it on your farm as well (800F and some roadkill needed).....I have nothing against bone meal/fish bone meal I guess depending on the source but why? when I can burn it and make it available?

Crab/lobsta Meal- increases Calcium saturation, Chitin (Increase bacteria and fungi). Known benefits in soil against pathogens. Too easy to make your own.

Soybean meal- (7-2-1) I have found that this is the perfect medium mixed food source for cannabis IMO. Most available is GMO as you may hear, but non gmo organic is readily available. seeds are also available to grow/make your own.

Diatomacious Earth- Food grade otherwise it will from one of the MANY mines that have diatoms and heavy metals. To add to this, the Diatoms are heated and turned into a crystalline form which is very dangerous for your lungs as opposed to the amorphous type which is unheated and in its natural state. There are only about 3 mines in the US that are deemed food grade. Fertrell brand is what most recommend for food grade.

Kelp Meal- Micronutrients without the mining. Fuck Azomite I hate that stuff. Aside from the heavy metals(which are a large concern in medicine in very small amounts ie CADMIUM). Why introduce more aluminum and sodium to your soil anyways (unless it is zeolites to increase nute hold in soil and CEC)? Traces can be found from Comfrey, yarrow, kelp..etc. Seriously if we are going to talk about investing for our children....How about we first make sure they don't have to wipe our asses because of heavy metals when we are later in life.

Epsom salt- slow/small/extended Foliar for better uptake. Need high Cal saturation to push it in flower

Humic/Fulvic- I will begin to make my own out of my compost someday but I use both every grow now (leonardite...not the greatest). Bio-ag once that runs dry. Humic helps under the roots, Fulvic as foliar.
People should be aware that they NEED to use non-chlorinated water because when mixed it creates a Carcinogenic THMs (Trihalomethane) and MX's (Unknown Mutagen). See Bioag's website for a better explanation.

Molasses- Love it, need it. Once a week at least to feed the microbe, never more than twice. Just a few teaspoons is enough. Maple dregs in my future.

Fish Hydrolysate or Fermented fish- Please stop using Fish Emulsion from home depot....That shit is Cl toxic from what I have read and the smell! Thrown up cat turd.

75-80% Cal sat 11-13 mag sat

Could this be improved? A little of course but that is what it is all about both in life. Personal and societal progression. Providing the cleanest medicine both environmentally and internally at the cheapest cost. Taunting your buddies to go cleaner instead of bigger on giant gaps (quit flailing son and float). I wish coco grew in Maine but yet to find an alternative. Trying straight shredded leaves now but that will take time to know for sure.

17 gallons Coco coir (1 5kg brick)
5 gallons Earth Worm Castings
5 gallons sphagnum peat moss
5 gallons rice hulls
3 cups gypsum
3 cups crab meal
1 ½ cups kelp meal
3 cups soybean meal
3 cups bone char
1 cup dolomitic lime ( a little more if no epsom foliar)
1 cup Diatomaceous Earth
a handful of native leaves wouldn't hurt.

Using subs with a base of FFOF and FFHF.
Added a tbs of molasses to a gallon and gave her a drink than this.

Any info is greatly appreciated.
-Every grow is a successful one if you learn something.

Keep in mind in stead of using purchased potting soil as the base you can use, peat (with more dolomite), a bale mix that is buffered, coco, used soil that has no bugs etc. AND increase the concentration of the amendments. Most bagged soils are about 1/4 as amended as your super soils. It is far harder to make a good super soil than a good potting soil. You are doing the hard work. All you have to do is increase your amendments by about 25% and you are GTG with no expensive base potting soil. Perhaps add some extra Calcium Carbonate or fine Oyster Shell to be safe with Calcium. Based on 6 Years super soil experience, 100s of trucks mixed and grown.

First Amendment Soil said:

Keep in mind in stead of using purchased potting soil as the base you can use, peat (with more dolomite), a bale mix that is buffered, coco, used soil that has no bugs etc. AND increase the concentration of the amendments. Most bagged soils are about 1/4 as amended as your super soils. It is far harder to make a good super soil than a good potting soil. You are doing the hard work. All you have to do is increase your amendments by about 25% and you are GTG with no expensive base potting soil. Perhaps add some extra Calcium Carbonate or fine Oyster Shell to be safe with Calcium. Based on 6 Years super soil experience, 100s of trucks mixed and grown.

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Sub has better stuff to do than worry about soil recipes and his crew ain't trying to hear nothing! Lol.

Good advice tho!

NaturalFarmer said:

Has anybody done a real soil test with the mix?

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We have tested the original and a number of variations. They come pretty close to the NPKCaMgMicros you would calculate using basic nutrient math (%s, volumes, etc.). This is because the nutrients are mostly available after composting.

Bear in mind that the different amendments do continue to break down and you can modify the mix to control break down rate (like particle size and multiple sources of each amendment) so you can have a peak of N early, a peak of P midbloom and a peak of K just after then fade out at just the right time.

Sub was spot on with his recipe, trail and error has served many folks well, but statistics and trials support the blend and variations that consider practical amendment variables can help improve strain specific results.

Rasta Roy said:

Sub has better stuff to do than worry about soil recipes and his crew ain't trying to hear nothing! Lol.

Good advice tho!

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Thanks. Sub can do his thing. We appreciate what he has done for us and he has opened so many eyes to put down the bottle.

Here is another tidbit we learned over the years. Use it or not, but this is the first time we are sharing this in the open. You can compost this mix at 2x the concentration. Why would you? Well it takes up space (esp when you make mountains of it like us). When we made the first batches in the stores after customers asked us to in 2011 (we were not even using it), we were low on space. We did a trial and doubled the amendments, turned about every 5 days and got great completed compost in about 30 days, been doing the same for 6 years. THEN take the finished "Concentrate" and add back in the same amount of base soil or media. Viola, super soil in half the compost space. There is a limit to how concentrated you can get, we stick to 2x Super Soil aka Concentrate. It makes a GREAT well rounded topdressing too.

We put the amendments (a much revised recipe but similar NPK) on a compost base of 60% peat, with 30% peat with rice hulls and vermicompost making the last 10%. Then we finish once composted by blending with coco coir, coco chips, rice hulls, peat, perlite, growstones and add back in some Epsom and Calcium Carbonate. Don't forget 2-3 lbs of dolomite (hopefully #65) per bale of peat.

Peace.

First Amendment Soil said:

We have tested the original and a number of variations. They come pretty close to the NPKCaMgMicros you would calculate using basic nutrient math (%s, volumes, etc.). This is because the nutrients are mostly available after composting.

Bear in mind that the different amendments do continue to break down and you can modify the mix to control break down rate (like particle size and multiple sources of each amendment) so you can have a peak of N early, a peak of P midbloom and a peak of K just after then fade out at just the right time.

Sub was spot on with his recipe, trail and error has served many folks well, but statistics and trials support the blend and variations that consider practical amendment variables can help improve strain specific results.

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Amendments may take time to break down and become available but test will show whether they are present regardless. I am much more interested in the base saturation then anything else. NPK? not really ... If you have done a test on the soil please share.

Growop101 said:

he put such a little amound of the secret ingredient, its prob nothing lol

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Its granular humic acid

Molasses just isn't a usable nute in my situation. We have ant colonies we have to get really serious about, and ants carry aphids. Therefore, NO SUGAR will be added to my soil. Sorry.

subcoolgrower said:

I was serious about investment advise but what ever

OK Jokes on Me what The hell and I doing arguing with Trolls?
I know better.

I'm Out

Sub

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Damn Sub, this same ole shit, a decade later? Lmao.. guys super soil recipe is like a sauce recipe, you have room to tweek it to fit your needs, hell, Subs been tweeking it since the initial concept. People were balking at it then, and folks still are doing it now. Dont forget, what one strain loves and thrives in, another may not... play nice kids, we're in it together. Safe the hatred for 4chan and FB.

pisses me of that is gets 2 sub makes me sad that the trolls got 2 him i hope he comes back iv learned on this site u gott laugh it off hash church and weed nerds has tought me a fuck load