So you think you deserve $15/hr. at Mc-Donald's? Meet your replacement.

UncleBuck said:

where is the evidence of this?

can you name one single business that has ever had to close due to a minimum wage increase?

can you explain why denmark has a $20 min wage and universal health care, but their big macs cost only $0.40 more than ours do?

can you explain why when wages go up, products on the BLS list like chicken and eggs and milk do not go up at anywhere near the same rate?

or do you only have right wing dogma talking points with no basis in reality to rely on?

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It's not a right wing bias. I lean conservative nowadays but I'm no repub, man, sheesh. It's just common sense. How else would a mom and pop shop make up for the extra overhead caused by increased labor costs? Obviously by bringing in more income. That doesn't take any bias to realize.

Where there's increased costs but no increased revenue, things go downhill and small businesses suffer because they don't have the support or big pockets that corps and big businesses do.

borderland books in the mission district in SF has now been saved by 100's of peeps donating money to keep them open... All because they had announced they'd have to close due to the wage hike.

UncleBuck said:

where is the evidence of this?

can you name one single business that has ever had to close due to a minimum wage increase?

can you explain why denmark has a $20 min wage and universal health care, but their big macs cost only $0.40 more than ours do?

can you explain why when wages go up, products on the BLS list like chicken and eggs and milk do not go up at anywhere near the same rate?

or do you only have right wing dogma talking points with no basis in reality to rely on?

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Also dude, the milk and eggs situation is different at large grocers than it is at small mom and pop stores. The large grocer can afford to sell these commodities at smaller margins than the small shop can, and they often even sell them at almost no profit because they know the consumer will always buy other items where the margin is much higher.

I don't know shit about Denmark though. Sounds like they've got a great system. I'm sure they have a lot of other systems in place that we don't, so I don't know if it's a good comparison or not to our fucked up govt.

bu$hleaguer said:

It's not a right wing bias. I lean conservative nowadays but I'm no repub, man, sheesh. It's just common sense. How else would a mom and pop shop make up for the extra overhead caused by increased labor costs? Obviously by bringing in more income. That doesn't take any bias to realize.

Where there's increased costs but no increased revenue, things go downhill and small businesses suffer because they don't have the support or big pockets that corps and big businesses do.

borderland books in the mission district in SF has now been saved by 100's of peeps donating money to keep them open... All because they had announced they'd have to close due to the wage hike.

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so you have no evidence of $7 big macs (despite a litany of nations with higher min wages to choose from), yu can't contradict the BLS numbers which rise slower than wages do, and you can't even name one business that has ever closed due to min wage, but you are convinced all of the talking points you just reeled off are somehow true anyway, despite a complete lack of evidence.

not to mention, how could businesses possibly increase revenue when people have more money to spend because wages are higher?



that's a fucking mystery if i ever saw one.

maybe we should pay everyone nothing to save companies on labor costs, that way they won't even have to worry about revenues anymore.

UncleBuck said:

show me all the actual evidence (right wing talking points are not evidence) that raising the inimum wage leads to massive unemployment then.

it should be so easy, there are many nations out there with significantly higher min wage than we have. they should all be wallowing in massively high unemployment.

get to it.

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Business and politics are two differing things that occasionally intertwine together to make both good and bad outcomes. All the logic that I've presented on this topic is based on what I learned in college and not exclusively from the real world, so exceptions can take precedence to what I've shared but most of my points linger upon basic mathematical understandings.

Are you aware of supply and demand? How about the cost of living? Do you know what the first rule of business is? Do you know why we have politics and government?

bu$hleaguer said:

Also dude, the milk and eggs situation is different at large grocers than it is at small mom and pop stores. The large grocer can afford to sell these commodities at smaller margins than the small shop can, and they often even sell them at almost no profit because they know the consumer will always buy other items where the margin is much higher.

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the point is that you said the cost of goods would rise if we were to raise wages.

the problem with this talking point of yours is that if we examine all the goods on the BLS list (staple items like chicken, eggs, mlk, and so on) and compare them against min wage increases over time, we see that they do not go up anywhere near the amount that wages do.

so your little talking point that rasiing the min wage will cause the price of goods to spike is false on its face.

look at denmark, their min wage is $20 an hour, about three times what ours is. yet they pay $4.70 for a big mac while we pay $4.30 for one.

your talking points have zero basis on reality and zero evidence to back them up.

AquariusPanta said:

All the logic that I've presented on this topic is based on what I learned in college

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you'll have to excuse me for being dumb then, seeing as how i am a college dropout.

but can you please point me to the evidence that higher minimum wage will lead to massive unemployment?

denmark is paying about $20 an hour min wage, why is their unemployment rate roughly the same as ours? norway has our min wage beat to hell, their unemployment rate is 3.8%.

did they ever teach you in college that your rhetoric should coincide with reality and be supported by evidence?

UncleBuck said:

so you have no evidence of $7 big macs (despite a litany of nations with higher min wages to choose from), yu can't contradict the BLS numbers which rise slower than wages do, and you can't even name one business that has ever closed due to min wage, but you are convinced all of the talking points you just reeled off are somehow true anyway, despite a complete lack of evidence.

not to mention, how could businesses possibly increase revenue when people have more money to spend because wages are higher?



that's a fucking mystery if i ever saw one.

maybe we should pay everyone nothing to save companies on labor costs, that way they won't even have to worry about revenues anymore.

Click to expand...

Of course I'm convinced of it, it's basic as basic can be. I'm not blinded by ideology like you are. If you take a moment to think about the whole issue it's not too hard to understand. You're just blinded by your hate of conservatives, kinda like fuckin Magua in Last of the Mohicans was blinded by his hate of the Yangees traders. Take it easy man.

Anyway, back to the discussion- I don't have the time to google everything like ya'll do for information to support your arguments, so I'm just coming from my own personal experience with all this. I know that if I had to pay my employees $15/hr it would really put me in a serious bind. I don't know if I'd have to close, but I do know I'd hike the fucking prices on our food in order to try to get the money I'm losing on labor. My fear is that there's a ceiling for which people are willing to pay for things, and if they don't want to pay a certain price they'll just stop coming in to eat. That would cause me to lay off folks to make up for the loss of sales. Do you see what I'm saying?

UncleBuck said:

you'll have to excuse me for being dumb then, seeing as how i am a college dropout.

but can you please point me to the evidence that higher minimum wage will lead to massive unemployment?

denmark is paying about $20 an hour min wage, why is their unemployment rate roughly the same as ours? norway has our min wage beat to hell, their unemployment rate is 3.8%.

did they ever teach you in college that your rhetoric should coincide with reality and be supported by evidence?

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Don't you think comparing us to Denmark and Norway is kinda a reach? Their goods produced and job force surely doesn't mimic ours, does it? We don't make anything here anymore, so we don't have that many good jobs available anymore. Good jobs pay more. What we need is more available good paying jobs, not more higher paid shitty jobs.

UncleBuck said:

you'll have to excuse me for being dumb then, seeing as how i am a college dropout.

but can you please point me to the evidence that higher minimum wage will lead to massive unemployment?

denmark is paying about $20 an hour min wage, why is their unemployment rate roughly the same as ours? norway has our min wage beat to hell, their unemployment rate is 3.8%.

did they ever teach you in college that your rhetoric should coincide with reality and be supported by evidence?

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Just because you're a college dropout doesn't mean you're automatically dumb, nor does going to college necessarily mean that a person is smart.

I don't know what evidence you are looking for, maybe try going and getting a business degree? They really aren't that difficult to obtain compared to an engineering "rocket science" degree and would explain a lot of the basics behind how the economy is the way it is and why each country's economy varies in comparison to each others.

Edit:

Your attitude actually reminds me of... me... when I was a young teenager. There was this girl, who I went to school with who's name was Emily. She was one of those popular girls that was apart of a circle; her parents owned a business and were extremely wealthy. Well when her birthday came around one year, it was made clear that she was going to invite x20 of her "best" friends to go to Colorado for her birthday for the weekend. Mind you, we were in Junior High (8th grade), living in the midwest.

Because of this, I felt it was mandatory and acceptable to assume that I should have the same treatment come my birthday, as my parents ran their own business as well and were slightly wealthy. When I asked my parents for the ideal treatment, they unmercifully laughed at me for a good ten minutes and never forgot the memory.

Looking back, I get a good chuckle. You kind of have this preconceived notion that because another country can do things more ideally, that we should be able to as well just because we have a few similarities. I hope the moral of the story is clear to you, Buck.

bu$hleaguer said:

Of course I'm convinced of it, it's basic as basic can be.

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then why can't you find any evidence for what you are saying?



if it's so basic, you should have examples and evidence galore.

bu$hleaguer said:

I'm not blinded by ideology like you are. ...You're just blinded by your hate of conservatives...

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if i'm blind, then why can i support everything i am saying with evidence, and strike down everything you are saying with counterexamples?

doesn't make much sense.

bu$hleaguer said:

Don't you think comparing us to Denmark and Norway is kinda a reach?

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no.

there is nothing too different about a burger king in america, versus one in australia or denmark. it's the same damn franchise.

the only difference is that they pay their employees twice as much or more in australia, and nearly three times a smuch in denmark, yet the big mac only costs about 30 or 40 cents more.

so much for that $7 big mac you were talking about, eh?

AquariusPanta said:

I don't know what evidence you are looking for

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that would be evidence that supports your claims.

you claimed that higher minimum wage would lead to higher unemployment, so maybe show me some evidence for it.

abandonconflict said:

So you do still consider pedophilia consensual, thanks for clearing that up.

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I don't consider any act by itself consensual or not To determine whether something is or is not consensual requires more information, specifically the disposition and capacity of the involved parties.

To your credit you got to write pedophilia again, did it send a tingle up your leg, "Anarchist"?


So when we gonna have that chat about what property is and who can own it? Or would you rather talk about Rabbi's and foreskin sucking that your buddy Uncle Buck supports?

UncleBuck said:

that would be evidence that supports your claims.

you claimed that higher minimum wage would lead to higher unemployment, so maybe show me some evidence for it.

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Ok, Buck, I'll hold your hand on this one and try to give you more than popular theories.

The cost of living in countries varies.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Denmark

After that, you need to read about the Law of Demand and Supply. You may get tripped up with this but I'll set ya straight.

UncleBuck said:

no.

there is nothing too different about a burger king in america, versus one in australia or denmark. it's the same damn franchise.

the only difference is that they pay their employees twice as much or more in australia, and nearly three times a smuch in denmark, yet the big mac only costs about 30 or 40 cents more.

so much for that $7 big mac you were talking about, eh?

Click to expand...

Absolutely untrue. There are very different laws, permits needed and fees as well as rules and regulations businesses there must adhere to compared to here. It's a different country, therefore different laws. I happen to know because one of my businesses I own is a franchise and the company has a location in France. They have very different rules there regarding how the business operates and what they are allowed and arent allowed to sell. It's not like it's an American company so our rules follow them over the ocean.

Also, I don't need evidence to support my thoughts. It's common sense that if costs go up, revenue goes down. That missing money (the difference in labor costs) doesn't just magically show up somehow, you have to earn it back some way. You can search all the stats you want, but if our costs go up, you don't just shrug your shoulders and say "oh well." You make it back somehow.

AquariusPanta said:

Ok, Buck, I'll hold your hand on this one and try to give you more than popular theories.

The cost of living in countries varies.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United States&country2=Denmark

After that, you need to read about the Law of Demand and Supply. You may get tripped up with this but I'll set ya straight.

Click to expand...

so rent is lower, groceries are lower, purchasing power is higher, and this proves what?

if prices are 10% higher there, but min wage is 300% of what it is here, why do you think that works in your favor?

ask your college for a refund.

bu$hleaguer said:

Absolutely untrue. There are very different laws, permits needed and fees as well as rules and regulations businesses there must adhere to compared to here. It's a different country, therefore different laws. I happen to know because one of my businesses I own is a franchise and the company has a location in France. They have very different rules there regarding how the business operates and what they are allowed and arent allowed to sell. It's not like it's an American company so our rules follow them over the ocean.

Click to expand...

so maybe you can explain to me exactly what these differences are, and why it is that despite min wage being tripled, the cost of a big mac is only $0.40 more.

bu$hleaguer said:

Also, I don't need evidence to support my thoughts.

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you can think all the thoughts you like, i suppose.

but if you want to make factual statements in a debate, you absolutely need evidence to back them up.

UncleBuck said:

so maybe you can explain to me exactly what these differences are, and why it is that despite min wage being tripled, the cost of a big mac is only $0.40 more.




you can think all the thoughts you like, i suppose.

but if you want to make factual statements in a debate, you absolutely need evidence to back them up.

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Not sure, maybe they don't have grease trap cleaning charges? Maybe they don't have to have upflow drains checked and paid for to fit in with city ordinances? Maybe their waste removal is paid for as a common area cost and not personal? Maybe they don't have fire extinguisher checks/costs? Maybe the products are sourced locally and are less expensive? Maybe their rent is less than in the states? Perhaps business insurance coverage costs are less overseas? Maybe it's workers comp insurance, is that less? Maybe electricity or sewage or water or gas costs are less than here? Maybe less employees are needed because the menu is different? Who knows- you're the one asking, I'm sure you have the answers to the above variables.

And this is only a debate to you. I'm having a discussion about something that interests me. So you can sit on your couch and pet your dog and search google for all
the above facts to post in charts but I don't need to. It's not important enough for me to do so. I live it every day and I know exactly what will happen to me and my business if I raise my labor expense significantly. Oh, and not every conversation is a debate. Sometimes a discussion is beneficial to everyone because they all learn something.

UncleBuck said:

so rent is lower, groceries are lower, purchasing power is higher, and this proves what?

if prices are 10% higher there, but min wage is 300% of what it is here, why do you think that works in your favor?

ask your college for a refund.

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Hah, it's clear all you want from all of this is to the right to say you were right and everyone else was wrong. I guess you missed the part with how restaurant costs are over 60% higher in comparison to the United States of America. What were your examples again? O yeah, how fast food restaurants in denmark pay more than those here in the US.

I'm done trying to help you out; again, it's clear you're just seeking a justification for your views, which are hardly enough to understand the massive taking, which is that of the global economy.

bu$hleaguer said:

Absolutely untrue. There are very different laws, permits needed and fees as well as rules and regulations businesses there must adhere to compared to here. It's a different country, therefore different laws. I happen to know because one of my businesses I own is a franchise and the company has a location in France. They have very different rules there regarding how the business operates and what they are allowed and arent allowed to sell. It's not like it's an American company so our rules follow them over the ocean.

Also, I don't need evidence to support my thoughts. It's common sense that if costs go up, revenue goes down. That missing money (the difference in labor costs) doesn't just magically show up somehow, you have to earn it back some way. You can search all the stats you want, but if our costs go up, you don't just shrug your shoulders and say "oh well." You make it back somehow.

Click to expand...

He clearly has no background in business.