So how do I know if I'm over defoliating ... Can defoliating cause hermaphroditism

PJ Diaz said:

Sounds like confirmation bias to me.

Click to expand...

You can see the seeds in the larf

Airwalker16 said:

If this solar panel thing was true, when people strip their plants to bare twigs like the GML vid I've referenced, the are literally no fan leaves left. If what you're saying is true, they'd die, and stop growing. Period. But they don't. They all push out all new leaves and a week later you can't even tell it. was done.

Click to expand...

I've never seen anyone strip a plant completely bare, but certainly people sometimes strip them down to almost nothing. I'm not convinced that proves that the leaves don't need and use direct light though.

Humple said:

I've never seen anyone strip a plant completely bare, but certainly people sometimes strip them down to almost nothing. I'm not convinced that proves that the leaves don't need and use direct light though.

Click to expand...

Sure they do. Leaves need direct lights, to grow leaves. In my opinion, the benefits outweigh the cons to remove leaves out of the way of bud sites. If a top, down low, gets light, it can still become a decent nug. But buried under a canopy of leaves, it never becomes anything.

Get the most light to the most buds

Airwalker16 said:

Sure they do. Leaves need direct lights, to grow leaves. In my opinion, the benefits outweigh the cons to remove leaves out of the way of bud sites. If a top, down low, gets light, it can still become a decent nug. But buried under a canopy of leaves, it never becomes anything.

Click to expand...

Perhaps I've mistaken you, but I understood you to say that leaves don't need light, buds do. Last I knew, very little photosynthesis occurs in the actual buds, with the leaves doing most of the heavy lifting to supply the plant. If there's been a change in our understanding/knowledge of the plant, that's cool, but I surely would like a reference for this information, so I can read up a bit.

Humple said:

Perhaps I've mistaken you, but I understood you to say that leaves don't need light, buds do. Last I knew, very little photosynthesis occurs in the actual buds, with the leaves doing most of the heavy lifting to supply the plant. If there's been a change in our understanding/knowledge of the plant, that's cool, but I surely would like a reference for this information, so I can read up a bit.

Click to expand...

agreed. sugar leaves probably contribute less than 25% of total photosynthesis. probably less than that.
if defo'ing increased yield, wouldn't commercial outdoor growers be doing it?

Airwalker16 said:

You can see the seeds in the larf

Click to expand...

I'm not surprised that you have a problem with your plants herming on you, but that doesn't prove your theory as a fact. In fact, I personally have never had that issue of plants herming in the areas that don't get as much light, so you might be doing something else wrong to cause this. Again, your fact seems to be little more that your own personal confirmation bias. Not a fact.

Personally I think the advantages of defoliation have less to do with light getting to buds vs leaves, but the benefits that come from the plant having more space to grow and airflow in the canopy because they aren't crowded by a bunch of other leaves or shoots. There are real world actual facts that show that plants can sense their surrounds and grow accordingly. It does stand to reason that if a plant "senses" that it has more space to grow, it will in turn grow bigger buds.

PJ Diaz said:

and airflow in the canopy

Click to expand...

personally, i'd add more fans vs removing leaves.

rkymtnman said:

agreed. sugar leaves probably contribute less than 25% of total photosynthesis. probably less than that.
if defo'ing increased yield, wouldn't commercial outdoor growers be doing it?

Click to expand...

I think the sun can penetrate much better and deeper into/through a plant than any conventional growlamp.

Kassiopeija said:

I think the sun can penetrate much better and deeper into/through a plant than any conventional growlamp.

Click to expand...

i agree with that. the statement that i replied to was that defol increases yields. which "should" hold true (if it was true to begin with) under any light source

Airwalker16 said:

I know for a fact low light levels cause herm issues. There's been nice harvests with great buds above the scrog net, perfectly flushed and done well, but underneath the net... Where it's literally ZER0 PpFd, the larf has seeds and nanners in abundance.
Yet the top is sensimilla.

Click to expand...

have you heard of this technique to willfully pollenize the (otherwise useless) bottombuds in order to prevent herming? can this work or just broscience?^^

rkymtnman said:

i agree with that. the statement that i replied to was that defol increases yields. which "should" hold true (if it was true to begin with) under any light source

Click to expand...

it's somehow a general problem in growing, there's simply no 100% accurate non-faulty way to do a 100% true comparison. It would need hundreds of plants, even studies in different situations, to validify such a single statement. Because if I treat plant A with <whatever> there's no way telling how wouldn've that plant A developed if i left <whatever> out....

it would be nice to do a single plant scrog and do a defol to one side while leaving the other. I wonder what the outcome would be. One plant in one pot, complete even canopy, everything the same just a left/right asymmetry

stop defoliating amigo
its a broscience

yield more only for grower who veg too much

Try it and see if you like the results. That's your best bet.

the "pistilwhipt" method of defoliation even take all the grow shoots off up until the last three inter nodes

the plant is almost naked at flip

he left some lower fans for growth..strange huh?

..the plants responded amazingly well..no larf down below..[no buds down below]

the cola's were twice as big as normal..

my point is .. if he could do that..then there is no such thing as too much

that said: start more modestly grasshopper and work your way up

Not much changed in the last 8 years regarding this debate.

Uncle Ben 2012:

Well, if my "bitch" had a lot of yellowed non-productive leaves like that, I'd be pHluckin' her too. Fortunately, I manage to retain at least 95% of my fan leaves in a nice green, healthy, productive manner until harvest. That's what mastering your garden is all about.


UB referencing Clarke in the same thread:

R. C. Clarke author of Marijuana Botany: An Advanced Study, the Propagation and Breeding of Distinctive Cannabis states that there are 3 common beliefs:

1.) Large shade leaves draw energy from the flowering plant and by removing the large fan leaves surplus energy will be available and larger floral clusters will be formed,

2.) Some feel that the inhibitors of flowering , synthesized in the fan leaves during the long non-inductive days of summer, may be stored in the older leaves that were formed during the non-inductive photoperiod. Possibly, if these inhibitor-laden leaves are removed, the plant will proceed to flower more quickly when the shorter days of fall trigger flowering,

3.) Large fan leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small, atrophied, interior floral clusters may begin to develop if they receive more light.

Few, if any, of the theories behind "leafing" have any validity.

The large fan leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth substances. They do create shade, but at the same time they are collecting valuable solar energy and producing foods that will be used during the floral development of the plant. Premature removal of the fan leaves may cause stunting because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced.

Most cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage and this trend continues on until senescence (death of the plant).

He also states that removing large amounts of fan leaves will also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause SEX REVERSAL resulting from a metabolic imbalance.

He goes on to say that cannabis grows largest when provided with plentiful nutrients, sunlight, and water, and left alone to grow and mature naturally. It must be remembered that any alteration of the natural life cycle of cannabis will affect productivity.

When growing tomatoes, the ultimate goal is to help the plant yield as much ripe fruit as possible. If you're growing indeterminate or "vining" varieties (Big Boy, Beef Master, most heirlooms), pruning your plants to remove unwanted shoots and leaves ensures that all the nutrients are going to the tomatoes. If you're growing a determinate variety (Biltmore, Heinz, Patio), too much pruning is counterproductive.

oh sorry, its for tomatos, never mind.

The plant keeps fan leaves in it’s own interest of being a healthy reproducing plant with fertile seeds. I trim leaves that limit light to bud sites for my own interest of making big and potent budswith no seeds at all.

I'm a big fan of Robert c. Clarke's old work...... But he was talking about outdoor.

Indoor different game with fixed lighting, controlled environment, etc==== plant fuckery and experimentation but I always sway to the cautious side with strip, training(if not height restricted), fert use out of habit......

PSUAGRO. said:

I'm a big fan of Robert c. Clarke's old work...... But he was talking about outdoor.

Indoor different game with fixed lighting, controlled environment, etc==== plant fuckery and experimentation but I always sway to the cautious side with strip, training(if not height restricted), fert use out of habit......

Click to expand...

Sounds good but what about these two sentences which are related to the threads title.

"He also states that removing large amounts of fan leaves will also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause SEX REVERSAL resulting from a metabolic imbalance."

Is this referring to outdoor growing only?