Should the US shed blood for Ukraine

smokinrav said:

Or are you a coward refusing to take responsibility for your posting?

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Sativied said:

Nearly 400 concentration camps, millions in it, getting raped, sterilized and killed. A genocide that is going on right now in the country who‘s Fox news propagada you just posted. Your own country declared war on the US in support of the nazis. Germany’s largest ally against Russia.


Except for the accusation the US, which you “often associate with NATO“ is the provoker who divided Ukraine and Russia and forced the latter to react by attacking. And comparing aiming actual nukes at a country to imaginary missiles in the Ukraine that would be within range to justify aka defend Russia’s ”re”-action. What you call poor japs were actually atrocious nazis.


And people think disinformation caused Brexit… anyone know where I can get a good deal on 4000miles of fencing?

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smokinrav said:

Not you

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smokinrav said:

Not you

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Kassiopeija said:

"War is the American way of life," said US historian Paul Atwood, noting that the US was born, grew, and became a superpower out of war, slavery, and human slaughter.

In its more than 240-year-long history since declaring independence on July 4, 1776, there have only been 16 years in which the US was not at war. From the end of World War II (WWII) to 2001, the US has initiated 201 of the 248 armed conflicts in 153 locations, accounting for over 80 percent of total wars fought. Since 2001, wars and military operations by the US have claimed more than 800,000 lives and displaced tens of millions of people.

Experts and observers reached by the Global Times said that the US, ignoring the objective reality of its own shambolic democratic record, instead attempts to use "democracy" as a pretext to wage war and as a cover for its numerous crimes such as causing humanitarian disasters and destroying sovereign order, is the real culprit threatening the world.

The US' obsession with exporting war will leave the US with an indelible shame, experts noted."

GT investigates: US war-mongering under guise of ‘democracy’ inflicts untold damage on the world - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

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djumbir said:

And that's why it's stupidly bad idea for Ukraine to strive toward NATO, it will get it no good. It's ambitions to enter NATO or EU are equal to a fairy tale. Countries with territorial issues simply can't get in. Plus the country has never really been under any dictatorship, yet people there live like dogs. Even worse after their revolutions. 200$ average salary and massive corruption. Now it'll be even worse, the people will live in fear for decades to come.

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djumbir said:

But then again the Americans were the only ones that actually ever used it and blasted those poor japs And yes, missiles in Ukr would be within the range. Btw balanced presence of nuclear weapons is the greatest peacekeeping mechanism, globally.

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Kassiopeija said:

"War is the American way of life," said US historian Paul Atwood, noting that the US was born, grew, and became a superpower out of war, slavery, and human slaughter.

In its more than 240-year-long history since declaring independence on July 4, 1776, there have only been 16 years in which the US was not at war. From the end of World War II (WWII) to 2001, the US has initiated 201 of the 248 armed conflicts in 153 locations, accounting for over 80 percent of total wars fought. Since 2001, wars and military operations by the US have claimed more than 800,000 lives and displaced tens of millions of people.

Experts and observers reached by the Global Times said that the US, ignoring the objective reality of its own shambolic democratic record, instead attempts to use "democracy" as a pretext to wage war and as a cover for its numerous crimes such as causing humanitarian disasters and destroying sovereign order, is the real culprit threatening the world.

The US' obsession with exporting war will leave the US with an indelible shame, experts noted."

GT investigates: US war-mongering under guise of ‘democracy’ inflicts untold damage on the world - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

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Friendly_Grower said:

Watching "Morning Joe" I think Russia already has troops in Ukraine in two places where there are majority Russian population and a pro-Russia militant forces.
This is Putin's "IN" since these areas were taken over by militant Russians some time ago. A Canker Sore of a thing in my opinion. Another analogy might be Putin saying "How can it be rape? I only put it in a little bit."

From watching some YouTube videos I think Ukraine has seemingly always been "part" of some construct. Either the Soviet Union or Poland. It is fair to say Ukraine has not been independent in a meaningful way in recent history.

The two areas Putin is recognizing as independent are what Putin now calls " Donetsk People's Republic and the Lugansk People's Republic "
Watching PBS news hour I understand the term "People's Republic" historically has been a term used to give validity to an invasion.

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy can go all in and just join NATO.
I fear anything short of that is akin to a shark taking bites out of a body but not the blitzkrieg it could be. It's a slow motion expansion of Russian domain.

I'm thinking Volodymyr Zelenskyy should join NATO and force Putin to do his full takeover before he is ready. This let Putin chomp mouthfuls and try to conserve what is left of Ukraine well, in my opinion that is just a slow death by just putting it in a little bit at a time and calling it love.

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Sativied said:

. But I admit I do not understand Putin. His reasoning is as illogical

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Jimdamick said:

What is Putin's endgame, that is the question.

Two things can be said that everyone can agree on is that he is cunning & ruthless.

Then why make such a seemingly self-destructive move.

This sticks in my head (it's long but definitely worth watching)

Could the endgame be the elimination/destruction of the USA?

That Ukraine is just a 1st move to a clear objective that will be worth the cost?

They both hate us so why not partner and focus on getting rid of the competition.

A "New World Order", so to speak

If China gets more involved, things are going to get really weird/really fast.

Just a thought.

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Dr.Amber Trichome said:

Eliminating and destruction of the USA? Lol! I just drove 3,000 miles cross country and what I saw of this country is already a lot of destruction . in fact demolishing these towns and starting over would be the way to go! Towns and roads in shambles . A lot of this country looks like shit and hasn’t been upgraded for way too long. It’s Very depressing to see .....and if other countries saw this they would have a much different visual of the true USA.

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Roger A. Shrubber said:

you can't just join nato, they have to vote you in, and i don't think they want to vote Ukraine into nato, for a lot of the reasons they should be voted in...it'll annoy putin and make him do stupid shit....so they didn't vote them in, and putin still gets annoyed and does stupid shit

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Jimdamick said:

With President Biden’s top security adviser warning that Russia could invade Ukraine “any day now,” a new poll shows that Donald Trump voters are now more than twice as likely as Joe Biden voters to say “the conflict is none of America’s business” — a striking role reversal after decades of right-wing hawkishness toward Moscow.

The shift presumably reflects the influence of GOP figures such as Trump and top Fox News host Tucker Carlson, who have long rationalized & supported Russian President Vladimir Putin.

The poll of 1,628 U.S. adults, which was conducted from Feb. 3 to 7, found that a full 42 percent of Trump voters now say the conflict between Russia and Ukraine is none of America’s business — 6 points more than the share who say “it’s in America’s best interests to stop Russia and help Ukraine” (36 percent).

In contrast, 60 percent of Biden voters now insist that it is in America’s best interests to help Ukraine, while just 20 percent disagree and claim the conflict doesn’t concern the U.S.

By the same token, more Trump voters now say the U.S. should take “neither” country’s side in the clash (49 percent) than say the U.S. should side with Ukraine (46 percent). Biden voters say the opposite, with more than two-thirds (67 percent) insisting the U.S. should side with Ukraine, compared with just 29 percent who prefer neutrality.

To some degree, this gap may arise from America’s usual partisan patterns. As more than 130,000 Russian troops mass on the Ukraine border, it has been Biden, not Trump, who has been trying to defuse the situation by threatening “swift and severe” economic sanctions and sending arms and troops to the region. It is not surprising that Americans who voted for the current president would be more inclined to favor his approach than those who backed his predecessor.

Yet the new poll results also suggest that partisanship isn’t the only — or even the major — force at work here. Conservatives are also divided among themselves, signaling a larger rift between traditional Republicans and their TrumpTard counterparts that could complicate America’s efforts to respond to Russia.

By and large, Republican leaders in Congress have encouraged Biden to get tougher on Russia by imposing immediate sanctions on Russian energy exports and sending more lethal aid to Ukraine’s military.

But Fox’s Carlson has repeatedly questioned U.S. support for Ukraine, asking on Nov. 10 why the U.S. would take Ukraine's side and arguing in December that Putin was justified in building up troops along the border.

"Ukraine is not strategic for America's interest" (unlike Vietnam, right?) Carlson added in January. “No rational person could defend a war with Russia over Ukraine.”

Sure enough, poll respondents who name Fox as their most-watched cable news network say the U.S. should take neither country’s side rather than Ukraine’s by 48 percent to 44 percent. Among those who watch CNN, the split is 53 percent to 37 percent in favor of Ukraine; MSNBC viewers, meanwhile, are 70 percent pro-Ukraine to 24 percent pro-neutrality. As Carlson steers rank-and-file Republicans toward Russia, his liberal counterpart, MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow, appears to be having the opposite effect on her audience.

Another important factor is the strength of party identification. On the question of which side to take in the confrontation between Russia and Ukraine, self-described Democrats look a lot like independents who lean Democratic. Less than a quarter of both groups — 22 percent and 24 percent, respectively — say the conflict is none of America’s business.

But on the right it’s a different story. There, independents who lean Republican (57 percent) are 7 points more likely than self-described Republicans (50 percent) to insist that the U.S. should stay neutral. They’re also 9 points less likely — 30 percent vs. 39 percent — to say it’s in America’s best interests to help Ukraine and stop Russia.

The implication is clear: On the right, the less strongly someone identifies as a Republican, the more skeptical they tend to be of intervening on Ukraine’s behalf.

Age and income seem to contribute as well. Hawkishness prevails among older Republicans, with those over 45 favoring Ukraine (51 percent) over neutrality (48 percent) and those under 45 favoring neutrality (53 percent) over Ukraine (32 percent)

The same goes for Republicans who make more or less than $50,000 a year; the former side with Ukraine by 4 points, while the latter side with “neither” by 24.

The picture that emerges is of a significant faction of non-establishment-oriented conservatives — younger, less wealthy and less engaged with Washington politics — who now favor a softer stance toward Russia.

Their views were likely shaped by several years of sympathetic statements from Trump, who said in 2016 that Putin “has been a leader far more than” then-President Barack Obama, and who continued to defend and praise his Russian counterpart throughout his presidency, particularly as evidence emerged that Putin had meddled in the 2016 election to benefit him.

As political commentator William Saletan recently pointed out in Slate, “In Gallup polls before 2016, Republicans generally viewed Russia less favorably than Democrats did. Now it’s the other way around.”

Polls taken in June of last year also showed that Putin enjoys a better net favorable rating among Republicans than Biden does, by anywhere from 16 to 22 percentage points. In a January survey 62 percent of Republicans said Putin was “a stronger leader” than Biden. (God I would LOVE to choke a Republican)

As a result, there is little consensus among Americans as a whole about how to proceed. Just 40 percent, for instance, say it’s in America’s best interests to stop Russia and help Ukraine, while 33 percent say the conflict is none of America’s business and 27 percent are unsure. Similarly, more Americans now say the U.S. should stay neutral (49 percent) rather than take Ukraine’s side (46 percent).

Meanwhile, not one of a list of potential U.S. policy responses garners majority support. The most popular — “continue diplomacy with Russia to avoid an invasion” (43 percent) and “implement severe economic sanctions to counter an invasion” (39 percent) — fall short by several points. None of the rest — “send arms to Ukraine” (24 percent); “send troops to the region to bolster defenses, including to Ukraine” (19 percent); “send troops to the region to bolster defenses, but not to Ukraine” (19 percent); “avoid further foreign conflict by agreeing to Putin’s demands” (6 percent) — appeal to more than a quarter of the public.

Yet on the question of Putin’s demands for NATO to withdraw from Eastern Europe and bar Ukraine from joining the alliance, Trump voters (14 percent) are nearly twice as likely as Biden voters (8 percent) to describe them as “reasonable.”

So, Tucker Carlson & his listeners are having a major influence on US foreign policy

Holy fuck

We're fucking doomed.

Thanks Murdoch/Fox, you singlehandedly have fucking ruined the USA

Was that your purpose/goal?

Sorta fitting in a way that just a corperation for profit/ratings was willing to and able to Divide/Destroy the US

Corporations win and we the sane get fucking obliterated.

Fox wins.

America loses.

If you're interested, I say Putin has to either back off or be stopped by any means necessary.

He can't be allowed to succeed.

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djumbir said:

Spot on

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drumrol said:

By any means necassary ???? Really --- We are supplying weapons ex.... Biden needs to pull his head out of his ass and put in place some real sactions, stop with this little bull shit. Nobody respects Biden or his adminastration after watching the Afghanistan debacle You really don't think we should put boots on the ground or escalate to nuclear do you? Why did Biden let Putin continue with the pipe line and shut ours down. Biden is a walking shit show with NO leadership skills. He should retire...........

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drumrol said:

By any means necassary ???? Really --- We are supplying weapons ex.... Biden needs to pull his head out of his ass and put in place some real sactions, stop with this little bull shit. Nobody respects Biden or his adminastration after watching the Afghanistan debacle You really don't think we should put boots on the ground or escalate to nuclear do you? Why did Biden let Putin continue with the pipe line and shut ours down. Biden is a walking shit show with NO leadership skills. He should retire...........

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