Seedling/cutting soil difficulties

Plagron Promix, on the back it has a list of things and under fertilizer it just had a small black line and writing underneath saying tbis is upto you!

Biobizz soil in hydro shop catalogue showing light mix with an EC of 1.2. 1.2x0.7= 840ppm (Hannah scale).

Eeek, dont think my seeds want to wake up to that. I was always recomended 300ppm or below for seed germination but probably wrong here.

The world health organisation set strict limits on tap water. I think 600ppm is too high or close to being to high? (easily available through google).

Ive been in many threads on water and most municipal water suppliers post details of water ppm/ph and all other data which is also a must by goverment company standards.

Luckily i have very pure water oweing to our slate bedrock here, 70ppm and find ph in soil not so important.

Hard or simple we are all diverse and see people nailing it both ways. Would definatly consider cloning in Plagron Promix, looks very nice

nobody important said:

OH I disagree. As in me making it harder, where did you read that from? I just got back from a trip to Florida where I was flown out to help a friend with his setup, He has attempted to grow with the same asinine advice you are giving. How can you know how good your water is without taking measurements? Do you also believe that a water utility company will guarantee you the same water every day? If you do, you have no idea how municipalities work and you must believe some guy at the water utility place is there constantly all day measuring the water you get. Most places in the U.S. may provide good water, but to believe it is constant is foolish. Back to my trip to Florida, It is a unique state as most of the state gets their water from LIMESTONE aquifers. I discovered tap water coming out over 600ppm and ph always over 8.5. Every day it was changing with over 10% differences. I even got a reading of over 700ppm while I was there. They also use chloramine as their chlorine source which can not be rid off by simply sitting water out like most idiots believe. Also most of the calcium found in tap water is NOT easily absorbed by cannabis. It is of a different molecular structure and not chelated for the plants structure. Using this type of water will simply cause Calcium lockout to some strains. Not all (some strains are Calcium hogs and will get enough of the calcium, however you will still eventually get calcium buildup and later get lockouts). My buddy in Florida flew me out because he was tired of getting idiotic advise from people who were suggesting asinine ideas (such as dont check ppm or ph). It was his first time growing and setup 3 rooms for flowering (12k) due to a financial settlement he received that he decided to invest. All of his problems were fixed by installing a R.O. filter setup. Now I congratulate you for your ability to not check ppm or ph. However by reading your post it is evident who the one really is making things complicated. Out of my entire post where I referenced you, I only made it clear I let plants root much more than you do. This makes transplants bulletproof with no signs of stress and immediate growth. To each his own, just dont give asinine advice like you did because we all dont have a fairy at the utility place making sure that our own personal grow water is perfect for cannabis

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Forgot to say our water changes summer winter and the company state this too with the reason that they use different resovoirs during different seasons.

I like the fact my water is 8.2ish as small doses of ferts drop it to 6.5.

Go with the plagron but you must use full hydro nutrients. Not soil or anything in between. make sure you have perlite. 300 ppm IMO may be ok as long as it is mostly micros (cal, mag, etc) No NPK will be needed and ive always found it to make seedlings grow a little slower and much darker (due to NPK). Seedlings need no NPK they use there cotyledons for food. Dark green seedlings indicate nute stress. May I add that I personally believe that the number one cause to hermies is high NPK values used on seedlings. his is coming from over 10 years of experience and constantly putting any rumor to the test. IE. Newbies believe light leaks cause hermies. I discovered this to be false years ago. I constantly disturb my flower rooms by turning on 13 watt flourescents during lights off to check up on things. Sometimes for over 5 minutes at a time. In short what im trying to say is that when I grow from seedlings, I always look for the next future mother plants. With seeds I always use VERY LOW PPMS at all times. While others always speak of breeders constantly producing hermy seeds, I literally have put this rumor to rest(99% of the time) by using VERY LOW PPMS on plants that came from seeds. Clones from those plants are a different story.

2Hearts said:

The world health organisation set strict limits on tap water. I think 600ppm is too high or close to being to high? (easily available through google).

Ive been in many threads on water and most municipal water suppliers post details of water ppm/ph and all other data which is also a must by goverment company standards.

Luckily i have very pure water oweing to our slate bedrock here, 70ppm and find ph in soil not so important.

Hard or simple we are all diverse and see people nailing it both ways. Would definatly consider cloning in Plagron Promix, looks very nice

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tell that to Florida. The reason why PPMs are so high their is due to all the calcium coming from the limestone aquifers. (went to utility to confirm this. they simply handed me their water analysis). Also this was one of the smallest counties in Florida (nothing but inbred hillbillies). and most of this county did not even have municipal water. People actually drink well water and bathe in it which is loaded with sulfur constantly smelling like rotten eggs

forgot to mention... only use full hydro nutrients as long as their is no calcium source in it

After reading what you said i might just give the first ferts with first watering after germination.

I say 300ppm max for seedlings as thats about the max people recomend. Most good grows and decent guides recomend 150-250ppm max so was thinking 250 after water ppm.

I will start one seedling canna start and one biobizz fishmix so one i will ppm and one i wont.

nobody important said:

Go with the plagron but you must use full hydro nutrients. Not soil or anything in between. make sure you have perlite. 300 ppm IMO may be ok as long as it is mostly micros (cal, mag, etc) No NPK will be needed and ive always found it to make seedlings grow a little slower and much darker (due to NPK). Seedlings need no NPK they use there cotyledons for food. Dark green seedlings indicate nute stress. May I add that I personally believe that the number one cause to hermies is high NPK values used on seedlings. his is coming from over 10 years of experience and constantly putting any rumor to the test. IE. Newbies believe light leaks cause hermies. I discovered this to be false years ago. I constantly disturb my flower rooms by turning on 13 watt flourescents during lights off to check up on things. Sometimes for over 5 minutes at a time. In short what im trying to say is that when I grow from seedlings, I always look for the next future mother plants. With seeds I always use VERY LOW PPMS at all times. While others always speak of breeders constantly producing hermy seeds, I literally have put this rumor to rest(99% of the time) by using VERY LOW PPMS on plants that came from seeds. Clones from those plants are a different story.

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nobody important said:

forgot to mention... only use full hydro nutrients as long as their is no calcium source in it

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It is peat, worm compost with perlite and lime to buffer ph so plenty cal/mag.

There are probably exceptions with water suppliers as with ec of soil

2Hearts said:

It is peat, worm compost with perlite and lime to buffer ph so plenty cal/mag.

There are probably exceptions with water suppliers as with ec of soil

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damn. No hydro nutrients. I suggest soil nutrients only or you will be getting yellowing weeks into flowering that will leave you like a dog chasing your tail around swearing up and down you have calmag deficiencies that can not be fixed. May I also suggest when feeding with nutrients feed using 6.0 ph water at all times. The reason why is that lime will always make your ph swing up. by feeding 6.0 water you will hit the entire nutrient uptake spectrum. also after a week or 2 (when seedlings are nice and developed with a few nodes) give it enough water to get a runoff measurement. This will let you know how much the calcium is buffering. With lime in soil I recommend getting a runoff measurement every two weeks after that as well. too much lime and your ph will be sky high. Too little lime and your ph may be too acidic during flowering causing lockouts and not deficiencies like many will suggest when you come back for help.

nobody important said:

damn. No hydro nutrients. I suggest soil nutrients only or you will be getting yellowing weeks into flowering that will leave you like a dog chasing your tail around swearing up and down you have calmag deficiencies that can not be fixed. May I also suggest when feeding with nutrients feed using 6.0 ph water at all times. The reason why is that lime will always make your ph swing up. by feeding 6.0 water you will hit the entire nutrient uptake spectrum. also after a week or 2 (when seedlings are nice and developed with a few nodes) give it enough water to get a runoff measurement. This will let you know how much the calcium is buffering. With lime in soil I recommend getting a runoff measurement every two weeks after that as well. too much lime and your ph will be sky high. Too little lime and your ph may be too acidic during flowering causing lockouts and not deficiencies like many will suggest when you come back for help.

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I am undecided as to wether to ph or not and i shouldnt run into any cal/mag problems to start with.

For your reasons i added Canna Start which seems a soiless nute with everything provided. Some say treat it hydro some say treat it as soil. I dont see that it has much less than my normal soil except loam and am a soil grower normally so want to treat it as soil. My only concern is cal/mag but i have a few different types and rarely get them when using seaweed. In the past i have had mag deficiencies but a little bit of epsom salt every few weeks is more than enough. I even try for 3-1 to 5-1 cal/mag ratios but again in soil it just seemed important to add a little once in a while.

A lot of reading journals and plagron related material between now and germination next week

2Hearts said:

I am undecided as to wether to ph or not and i shouldnt run into any cal/mag problems to start with.

For your reasons i added Canna Start which seems a soiless nute with everything provided. Some say treat it hydro some say treat it as soil. I dont see that it has much less than my normal soil except loam and am a soil grower normally so want to treat it as soil. My only concern is cal/mag but i have a few different types and rarely get them when using seaweed. In the past i have had mag deficiencies but a little bit of epsom salt every few weeks is more than enough. I even try for 3-1 to 5-1 cal/mag ratios but again in soil it just seemed important to add a little once in a while.

A lot of reading journals and plagron related material between now and germination next week

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As in not PHing, if your water has an acceptable ph (you may have mentioned this already and i apologize if you did) you will be ok. My only warning is that if you have 7.0 ph water and you use it, overtime your soils ph could still slightly go up beyond that. People think lime will guarantee your ph to never go over 7. This is not true. I personally would have used no nutes to start seeds. I use a root additive and use it VERY sparingly because ive had that cause me problems on seedlings before by following recommendation and thinking an additive could not burn. With the exception of trying fox farms lightwarrior recently, I always get almost 100% germination rates by using Promix BX which is pure peat, perlite, and myco. AND no lime. Ive always used this by itself and just water (in this case because of no lime I PH close to 6.8 ). Only a few years back I began using a root additive and contrary to what the hydro shop told me, it did burn some seedlings. You basically have soil. Its no longer soil less due to worm and lime. Treat it like soil and stay away from heavy waterings unless if you add massive amounts of perlite. The reason I recommend doing ph runoffs every 2 weeks is because this will tell you how efficient the lime is. For example, if you have vegged for a couple of weeks and you are now 2 weeks into flowering, the peat should have become a little acidic. If you do a flush with a ph of 7 and runoff comes close to the same, You have more than plenty of lime and should not encounter any deficiency. If you do begin to get yellowing and you have confirmed thru runoff your lime is still good, and the runoff shows a good ph, then you can add a calmag source. If you have done a runoff test 2 weeks into flowering and ph is acidic, your lime is no longer sufficient/efficient. If PH is too low you will have to get PH up first to make sure it is not a lockout. Adding calmag to low ph soil will not be used by the plant. If this is the scenario I recommend foliar feeding the calmag because even with low ph the leaves will absorb it./// I wanted to add that seeds can thrive in acidic soil (I posted a thread showing one thriving in miracle grow seed starter that has a ph of 4.0), however alkaline soil is a different thing. The same thread shows fox farms lightwarrior that is keeping ph of around 8. These seeds were all planted the same day and will show you the night and day difference of starting seeds at improper ph ranges

When i saw Plagron Promix was one of very very few choices here to me in the Uk after reading American Promix threads i saw that most do well in it and its other soils. I originally thought there seedling soil at approx 200ppm would be better but nay can find that in any hydro shops i know of.

Canna start is suitable for any medium as very complete and biobizz fish i have used before and is outstanding.

The peat worm mix looks and feels like soil with a sweet earth smell. Makes me confident ive got a great product, first thoughts is Plagron have impressed me and i might get there ferts too if this is as good.

Looking at it im probably going to treat it soil, our waters pure, little cal/mag is reason its a nice 8.2ish probably 7.5 summertime varying.

This soil looks spot on what all the plants in the garden centre part of our hardware store are potted in and they all look amazing. Very happy so far.

His water can't be any good,ppm /ec/cf ph r.o filter follow what I told you you won't go far wrong,if your water is bad then just buy spring water bottled,and you will be fine.hydroponic shops want you to buy heat mats and this and that not needed,unless your doing them in winter.the advice,I give you is not from a handful of clone ing it's from years of cloneing,the clones I took at the start I got wrong and over 15 year this is the best method I have found just water,clones do like phos / pattas though so I suppose you could soak cubes in a very light flowering nute but it is not needed,just clone x,water propagator mister and a warm spec light a standard house light will do,just for the warm it kicks out,you can cut them of the mother and straight into water in a cup this will stop wilting if you leave them in it for 24 hours then out of that straight into clone x then into medium.keep things simple",most of the time we are over complicating things when it's far from hard,once rooted put them on 1.1 ec .

Also don't over mist,or you will get problems,twice a day for 5 days once a day after that for 4/5 days then just keep you eye on the cubes don't over soak the cubes squeeze out excess water.mist the inside of the lid,also keep the vents shut on the propagator for the first 48hour.when cutting them of the plant you want to clone from,over cut the stem then straight into clone x for a few seconds,use a sharp knife Stanley knifes are best,if poss,peel back 5 mm of the stem sheaf near the cut,this will help them root better.while the clone is in the clone x,make a hole in the cube,you really better of if you can get the whole stem in the cube,right up to the growth on the clone.once you take the clone out of the clone x you might have to re cut because you have over cut the stem length wise,hold it up against side of cube and try and make your cut so your about 5mm of the bottom of the cube,they will root if you don't fuss with them too much,bait of neglect helps after about 6/7 days,if you are doing them in soil then use a clear cup the ones you get in the water dispensers put the clone down the edge,so you can see the bottom of it ,but cover with card and tape it over the clear bit of the cup where you can see the stem,by doing this you can peel it back after 12/14 days to see if it's rooted if not tape it back down.im not a fan of letting the roots get big in cubes before re potting once I see roots they go straight into,a decent size pot,until there ready to go under the hps lights,if your ready straight away then has soon has there rooted straight under hps but not directly under the light just to the side,for a few days I start them on 1.1ec like I said earlier for a week then just up it by one each week week 1 new rooted clones 1.1 week 2,1.2 and so on by the time you reach week 4 you should be on 1.4 and they should be at min 1 1/2 ft tall,but just flower at the height dep on your room.i get 10/10 ever time doing it this way,it ain't rocket science just don't rush em

I would look into getting a t5 light the bigger the better,the biggest one the shop I go to had was a 4 tube one,this is ideal,but because I top my plants every brance,about 5/6 times before they go into flowering room I added another 3 tube one along side it,all my vegging is done under them,it's not effected the yield in fact it has made the yield better,I have been getting a oz of a lb a plant that's,flowering two under 2 600's, 30oz of two I got from my last grow,76 from another I have from 6 plants under 5 x 600's,t5's are brilliant the money I have saved since doing this is un-real..."good luck all though ya won't need it,

2Hearts said:

When i saw Plagron Promix was one of very very few choices here to me in the Uk after reading American Promix threads i saw that most do well in it and its other soils. I originally thought there seedling soil at approx 200ppm would be better but nay can find that in any hydro shops i know of.

Canna start is suitable for any medium as very complete and biobizz fish i have used before and is outstanding.

The peat worm mix looks and feels like soil with a sweet earth smell. Makes me confident ive got a great product, first thoughts is Plagron have impressed me and i might get there ferts too if this is as good.

Looking at it im probably going to treat it soil, our waters pure, little cal/mag is reason its a nice 8.2ish probably 7.5 summertime varying.

This soil looks spot on what all the plants in the garden centre part of our hardware store are potted in and they all look amazing. Very happy so far.

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Bio buzz,soil the one with no nutes,you need to start with a fresh slate with clones,they are not feeding they are putting all the effort into producing roots,if they are feeding it is through the leaves,not the bottom end,they don't need feed till they have roots,but I leave that choice up to you try both methods,don't forget that the plant the clones were taken of had been feeding on nutes these retain in the clone you have took for a while,so your not totally bare nute wise,

tyke1973 said:

Bio buzz,soil the one with no nutes,you need to start with a fresh slate with clones,they are not feeding they are putting all the effort into producing roots,if they are feeding it is through the leaves,not the bottom end,they don't need feed till they have roots,but I leave that choice up to you try both methods,don't forget that the plant the clones were taken of had been feeding on nutes these retain in the clone you have took for a while,so your not totally bare nute wise,

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Since im not cloning thats cool and we both have 4way t5 units which rock, i have seperate t8s for adding extra light.

Quick update- Promix seeds should germinate tomorrow or day after.

The Westlands seedling soil which was the weakest around with just feed for 2 weeks has given much better seedlings with less troubles but out of about eight similar soils on the shelves next to it all claiming the same it was hard to reference this as the weakest.

So just a few days to go till this thread gets an answer - Is promix better for seedling than most soils available???

Im gona dance on my roof if it is the game changer i think it is....

Read many threads where ferts not too necessary for first week in promix as worm casts supply most nutes to start with.

All im looking for is one weeks perfect growth of a seedling, is promix gonna end this long quest....

tyke1973 said:

Bio buzz,soil the one with no nutes,you need to start with a fresh slate with clones,they are not feeding they are putting all the effort into producing roots,if they are feeding it is through the leaves,not the bottom end,they don't need feed till they have roots,but I leave that choice up to you try both methods,don't forget that the plant the clones were taken of had been feeding on nutes these retain in the clone you have took for a while,so your not totally bare nute wise,

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Biobizz soil with no nutes!!!!! I need a link as i reference Biobizz allmix and lightmix on this thread. Scroll back as i postedd pics out of hydroshop catalogue and even they have lightmix at 1.2ec. They do base fert mix but couldnt find a fert free soil like Promix.

Imo clones can take higher ec than seedlings and their root mass develops way more quickly so yer you say you put em in 1.1ec and thats spot on for Biobizz lightmix but a seedling with one tiny taproot will not like biobizz lightmix.