Seedling/cutting soil difficulties

Most of the seedling/cutting soils from local stores such as Westlands, John Innes, B&Q, Verve, levingtons etc etc all give me a ppm/soil reading of 700/800ppm.

Testing is done by mixing half soil and water in a cup then reading ppm/ec with a ppm/ec meter. Testing soil runoff to me is pointless. Half soil and water produces the same conditions the roots will sprout into imo or close enough so testing this should give the amount of ferts those first roots are going to experience.

Without flushing or amending with adequate buffering material for the large nutrient load the average seedling is going to have it pretty tough up until the point where its developed enough root and foliage to deal with and want 700ppm, round about the early to mid veg stage.

I see this a lot in soil, seedling sprouts good then starts suffering and growth is marginal at best. As the plant limps along showing purple colouration (as high nitrogen locks out phosphorous) and leaf twisting from trying to grow as fast as possible (metobolizing at extremely high stressfull rates causing too fast growth in parts) it will after a two to three weeks of no ferts miracuously start normal lush fast growth again. I mean this is far to common a sight here with these soils and makes sense of the suden change in growth from stunted to normal after the initial few weeks.

I feel this is what drives most new soil growers coco in my area. I persist but heavily flush the soil and possibly going to start germinating in rapid rootas because its easier for me to add 300ppm of ferts and know their happy, get a weeks growth then chance it with the strong stuff.

Coincidentally and misguidedly John Innes seedling and cutting soils should have between 150-300ppm max which is perfect for germinating in but upon testing this is far from the truth and over double the strength it should be.

I wish i could get hold of the soil and base fertilizer so i could pre mix the two at a lower strength but alas i cant find these products in uk hydro shops. I know of sunshine mix #4 being of this type where it has no nutrients except what you decide to add.

There should be no way that i could add half water and soil and get readings of 700ppm (this is the lowest reading tested as most at 800/900ppm). My water is 70ppm out of the tap but even with 0ppm glacier water the same results were given.

Makes me laugh but the seedling soils here can grow pretty big plants without any extra ferts. Bit stupid since im only trying to grow a seedling.

I read a lot of hydro threads and 800ppm res's seem to kills new borns quite quickly.

Peace out!

You are more technical than I. But I get pretty damn close to 100% clone rate using MG seed starter. I hate all other MG products but that one works great for me. I mix in about 30% perlite with it, cut, dip in rooting gel, put in solo cups, place a baggie with a slit in it over the top for humidity. Simple and works!

I just start them in rapid rooters then as soon as I see the tap root I got to an 18oz solo cup with a mixture that I use. All of these measurement s are done via a shot glass lol.
5 parts peat moss
3 parts Perlite
2 parts EWC or compost
1 teaspoon dolo lime
Easy peasy wether for clones or from seed

I have yet to try mg seed soil but now im intrested to test its ppm. I dont clone for space issues of running a mother plant but when i have cloned i easily saw they could handle a larger nutrient load over a seedling. My clones rooted much faster and had much bigger root mass compared to my seedlings when started.

I just prefer seedlings to clones though.

GrowinDad said:

You are more technical than I. But I get pretty damn close to 100% clone rate using MG seed starter. I hate all other MG products but that one works great for me. I mix in about 30% perlite with it, cut, dip in rooting gel, put in solo cups, place a baggie with a slit in it over the top for humidity. Simple and works!

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Anyone know where i can internet shop in the uk for unfertilized soil and seperate base fertilizer so i can control my own nutrient strength?

keep old grow soil. highly depleted and washed out.my Fox Farm Ocean Forest turns into a weak Light Warrior. I've never tested it like you but it works for me.

2Hearts said:

Anyone know where i can internet shop in the uk for unfertilized soil and seperate base fertilizer so i can control my own nutrient strength?

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Yeah check ICMag, and in their organic section they have a list of UK suppliers for amendments and supplies

@ Mudballs# Good idea but impracticle for me, easier just flush whole bag before use.

@ Vitc# Icmag is a great resource, i learnt a lot from those guys over the years.


I have time on my side and no rush to flower. I just love my veg box as for me thats the hard part with most rewards. I run the same strain and just out of intrest i notice an average of one in four plants being much more resiliant, faster growing and able to deal with the high nutrients. These superior plants would be my mother plants in that situation.

2Hearts said:

Anyone know where i can internet shop in the uk for unfertilized soil and seperate base fertilizer so i can control my own nutrient strength?

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No, but I recommend a product that say something like "professional growing subsrate" damn awesome stuff.

LEAF TWIST (My conclusion)

When i see my first set of leaves twist it often coincides with the dry periods of the soil. This leaf twisting gradually dissapears as the plant grows and reaches early veg. Ocassionally after a repot the symptoms may return for a week or to as new soil is often a bit high in nutrients to start with.

I have a good understanding of nutrient both organic and synthetic salts (also those inbetweens like rock phosphates which are neither organic nor synthetic). Anything technical and i would have to refer to more scientific resources meaning this is just my overview of whats happening when the leaf twists.

So - There are two types of soil nitrogen, unavailable nitrate nitrogen and available ammonium nitrogen (your piss contains lots of the amonia type hence why people use it but heavily diluted. The plant has little choice on varying its nitrogen uptake, if the soil has high amounts conversley so the plant will uptake high amounts. Its a passive uptake so the plant cant stop itself just like an addict basically.

So nitrogen controls elongation division and growth, you see when you give a plant nitrogen in the veg stage it grows. Now give it to much and cell growth/division is going to max out and hence patches of the leaf grow faster than others (this is crazy growth not the usual controlled all over growth hence abnormal patchy growth). As some parts grow faster than others this causes the leaf to contort. Notice the leaf will never flatten out when pressed flat.

Basically your putting a rocket up your plant and asking it to grow faster than it can, to overgrow, and it dosent have the ability to handle it.

I think the standard fertilizer will have equal amounts of both nitrate and amonium nitrogen. A fert like biobizz fish is probably higher in amonium nitrogen hence the quick greening of your plant and fast growth when used.

I expect a lot of this to be a bit off or inacurate but generally should explain leaf twist in young soil plants.

2Hearts said:

LEAF TWIST (My conclusion)

When i see my first set of leaves twist it often coincides with the dry periods of the soil. This leaf twisting gradually dissapears as the plant grows and reaches early veg. Ocassionally after a repot the symptoms may return for a week or to as new soil is often a bit high in nutrients to start with.

I have a good understanding of nutrient both organic and synthetic salts (also those inbetweens like rock phosphates which are neither organic nor synthetic). Anything technical and i would have to refer to more scientific resources meaning this is just my overview of whats happening when the leaf twists.

So - There are two types of soil nitrogen, unavailable nitrate nitrogen and available ammonium nitrogen (your piss contains lots of the amonia type hence why people use it but heavily diluted. The plant has little choice on varying its nitrogen uptake, if the soil has high amounts conversley so the plant will uptake high amounts. Its a passive uptake so the plant cant stop itself just like an addict basically.

So nitrogen controls elongation division and growth, you see when you give a plant nitrogen in the veg stage it grows. Now give it to much and cell growth/division is going to max out and hence patches of the leaf grow faster than others (this is crazy growth not the usual controlled all over growth hence abnormal patchy growth). As some parts grow faster than others this causes the leaf to contort. Notice the leaf will never flatten out when pressed flat.

I think the standard fertilizer will have equal amounts of both nitrate and amonium nitrogen. A fert like biobizz fish is probably higher in amonium nitrogen hence the quick greening of your plant and fast growth when used.

I expect a lot of this to be a bit off or inacurate but generally should explain leaf twist in young soil plants.

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I believe this is true to a point but many plants nowadays have genetic leanings towards such weird mutations...like GG4 is supposed to have a leaf twist I believe if you have the cut of the real GG

vitamin_green_inc said:

I believe this is true to a point but many plants nowadays have genetic leanings towards such weird mutations...like GG4 is supposed to have a leaf twist I believe if you have the cut of the real GG

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Yes agreed but were talking rare circumstances here, a common analogy could be the vast amount of non purple strain growers who think they have purple genetics everytime they see purple on their plants. Most times purple is a sign of stress not genetics. Healthy plants are totally green for the majority of strains. The less purple stems and petiols the healthier my plants are and yeilds.

What im talking here is bulk standard seedling/early veg leaf twist that dissapears as the plant grows bigger.

I use the same technique for seedlings. I just utilize the baggies less.

I like a no nute soil as well. Hydro store is not the place. I use a cheap potting soil (Earthgro brand I think) that I get at hardware store. Key thing is that it has no time release nutes. The compost component has some obviously. I mix it with plain perlite, vermiculite, peat moss - all bought from a garden/farm supply store "dirt cheap". Then I mix in some dolomite lime. Not saying it is perfect, but it drains well and if my plants get burnt, only myself to blame.

Hugo Phurst said:

No, but I recommend a product that say something like "professional growing subsrate" damn awesome stuff.

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Will be looking into this later, thanks

GrowinDad said:

I use the same technique for seedlings. I just utilize the baggies less.

I like a no nute soil as well. Hydro store is not the place. I use a cheap potting soil (Earthgro brand I think) that I get at hardware store. Key thing is that it has no time release nutes. The compost component has some obviously. I mix it with plain perlite, vermiculite, peat moss - all bought from a garden/farm supply store "dirt cheap". Then I mix in some dolomite lime. Not saying it is perfect, but it drains well and if my plants get burnt, only myself to blame.

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Sounds daughting but i hear what you say about hydro shops, every soil is super doubped up with nutes. They were trying to give me a soil that was 1450ppm saying its great for young veg plants, just germinate in rapid roota and throw it in. I asked them what they were running plants at in flower and all of a sudden they saw that 1450ppm was a bit strong for a two week old. Thing is everyone else buys it and when i smoke their weed it taste awfull and like three grams just to get a hit, they always wondering why the buds never fully dry lol

PURPLE STEMS PETIOLS AND LEAVES (Again just my take anyway)


This again is just in reference to young juvenile and teenage (stroppy prebubescent tantrum throwing little shits) veg plants. Again often the purple markings feature heavily but the plant outgrows most of it. Worst case scenarios are when new growth is purple and undersides of leaves purple too, a mild case would be just the seedling stems and leaf stems.

So were in a strong seedling soil and our seedling stems purple. The plants snorting that ammonium nitrogen up like a mothafucker, its in the soil it has no say in the matter as it cant stop it entering its roots. People are telling you your plants phosphorous deficient a three days old or hey man you just got purple genetics chill.... Truth is that nitrogen is antagonistic against phosphorous absorbtion as too much phosphorous would be antagonistic against nitrogen (bloom). Normally this would be balanced but with so much nitrogen being eaten phosphorous gets the back seat.

Sometimes people half get it, i.e. they see purple and think phosphorous defhiciency but adding pure phosphorous has no effect and often futher compounds the high nute levels.

That phosphorous deficiency is actually a lock out and as the plant slowly struggles to grow enough leaves and roots to balance out the high ppm levels that purpling slowly diminishes till just traces are left.

I think i should mention that cold soil temps inhibit phosphorous absorbtion like at the end of flowering when winter hits and our purple strains show their true purple flourish(not at day three). If you have cold soil then thats another problem that seedlings hate and not relevant indoors where every enviromental factor is easily controllable for the right price.

Just my two cents, im probably way off thr mark...

Finding very little unferted or mild seedling soil in uk hydro shops except Gold label light mix of which i cant find an NPK for it (Biobizz light mix looks about 4-3-3 or there abouts and strong for seedlings) i have picked up two different soils. John innes seedling (feed for 2 weeks) and dreaded Westlands seedling (feed for 2/3 weeks).

These are my final runs with shop bought soil and have cut both with 50% perlite and a good flush just to get them as weak as possible.

Both tested nearer 400ppm in the soil test so fingers crossed.

That verve seedling/cutting soil i got says feed for 8 weeks and tested 700ppm and over.

I need a promix with NPK like 0.4-0.3-0.3 or similar and in a weeks time when the Westland and John Innes beans sprout if they show nute lock im going to to ditch the soil for somthing easier and not so jam packed with nutes.

Im looking to germinate at between 250-250ppm and slowly getting bored of the uk soil market and its lack of promix or sunshine#4 which would give me the control i want.

I recently went against my experience and knowledge and recently just ruined $200 of seeds using fox farms lightwarrior because it was suggested by the local hydro store. Seedlings require NO nutes. Not even a smidgen. The twisting you speak off is what ive experienced before using fertilized soils. Promix here in the U.S.A is what ive personally had best luck with. Over 90% success rates using just water for 2 weeks. No leaf twisting. BTW my seeds were not ruined by the ewc in the soil but because those fucking idiots at fox farms believe seedlings need oyster shells. light warrior would not hold a ph of lower than 7.5 even after each getting almost a half gallon of 4.0ph water (in 16.oz solo cups).

Seeds bum out for the first three weeks or so in all my local soils. I purchased the two lightest possible for seedlings available then im going soiless or coco. After the first initial nute OVERLOAD shock plants revert to lush growth again.

Dude i hear you with that seedling young plant leaf twist crap, straight up to hot soil. Some say heat but heat is just leaf edges pointing up. Sick of twisted leaves and happy you found a cure with just a substrate change, makes me think there is a light at the end of tbis tunnel and im very close to dialling it in.

Plagron seed soil link:-

http://growshop.ie/index.php/mediums-pots/plagron-seeding-cutting-soil-25-litre.html


This soil has an ec of 0.3 as details in the link show and Plagron pro mix suggests even less nutrient value.

This could well be what im after and will order some tomorrow so maybe ten days to get results. I hope it gives the control i want as i dont currently use them much but have ec meters, chem ferts and organic ferts so can trial one seed each for chem and organic.

Begining to open my eyes to pro mixes as they offer such a vast level choice in starting soil nutrient strength. Very happy after days reading up and finding npk/ec values