Reverse Engineering everyone's nutrients

It's not the fault of your water source that causes deficiency, it's the fault of the base nutes. There's nothing inherently special about low ppm water. It's just water and most hydro nutes are formulated around low ppm water to begin with.

The bottom line is that cal-mag supplements in general are a waste of money. I've never had to use them even before I did DIY salts. That's the whole point of 3 part formulas like GH flora in the first place! (if you're getting calcium deficiency, you're not using enough flora "micro". Adding a 4th, overlapping, bottle only adds to complexity, not subtracts)

churchhaze said:

You aren't the only one here who thinks they need a dedicated "calmag" product when using RO/distilled/rain water. The fact is that the overlapping product is not needed. I thought you realized this a few days ago.

The only reason people are led to believe they need an extra bottle with these overlapping nutrients is good marketing.

I just can't t understand why people would want to reverse engineer these "supplements".

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Errrr... Hang on dude, I think in my case you need the correct nutrient profile for coco. And I am not trying to reverse engineer the supplements. I am trying to understand them...

outlier said:

Errrr... Hang on dude, I think in my case you need the correct nutrient profile for coco.

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Convince yourself whatever you want. There's a reason 3-part base nutes exist, and it's not so people can get a 4rd overlapping part. (which you clearly noticed is overlapping)

outlier said:

And I am not trying to reverse engineer the supplements. I am trying to understand them...

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It sounds more like you're resisting understanding than trying to understand.

churchhaze said:

Convince yourself whatever you want. There's a reason 3-part base nutes exist, and it's not so people can get a 4rd overlapping part. (which you clearly noticed is overlapping)



It sounds more like you're resisting understanding than trying to understand.

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Firstly, you taught me nothing dude (in this instance). I figured all this shit out myself. Sure I may have worded it incorrectly, but Mister (being the decent person he is) set me straight on my new understanding. You jumped in and assumed I got it all from you when in-fact, I simply put two and two together.

No need to preach to me on the calmag thing. I have a bottle 1% used sitting in my cupboard collecting dust. I found by trial and error that the correct nutrient profile is the only way to grow in coco. Now that's not saying you need coco specific nutes either.... I built my own profile using the flora 3 part series that stood the test throughout both veg and flower. It's piss easy to veg in coco, flower is another issue altogether, or so I've found.

What's the old saying, assume anything and well, yer know. No hard feelings, I like your posts, so just move on

churchhaze said:

It sounds more like you're resisting understanding than trying to understand.

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I don't think that's the case. You have the remember that hardly anyone here has a horticulture degree or anything related. So, to learn how something works, in this case, learning how fertilizers work and how to go about mixing your own, you need to start with a mix that you were sold. A blend that is essentially complete and currently does a good job in aiding in the growth of your plants. You figure out what chemicals make up that fertilizer blend, you will learn something about fertilizer profiles in general. Most of the blends that are sold to cannabis growers are general cut flower plant blends.

So do you basically get the same benefits(enhanced nutrient uptake and microbial activity) using fulvic acid as humic then? The benefit to making a concentrate with potassium silicate and fulvic acid I see would be only having to measure once then just use the liquid concentrate.

guerrilla medic said:

So do you basically get the same benefits(enhanced nutrient uptake and microbial activity) using fulvic acid as humic then? The benefit to making a concentrate with potassium silicate and fulvic acid I see would be only having to measure once then just use the liquid concentrate.

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Fulvic acid IS a humic acid. Not all humic acids are fulvic acid. Like a square is a rectangle, not all rectangles are squares. All humic acids do the same things. They are just difficult to isolate, that is, it costs a lot of isolate specific ones. So, buying a general humic acids product, like granules derived from leonardite, is the cheapest way to get them.

In regards to potassium silicate and fulvic/humic acids in the same stock solution: you'll probably have to run a jar test and just find out.

well i knew that fulvic acid was derived from humic acid i just wasn't sure if it had the exact same effect on plants. i appreciate your responses. you are a good man. i checked out your open salt page, it looks promising. keep up the good work!

How to reverse engineer everyone's nutrients...

Can you reverse engineer soluble glass?
Can you reverse engineer fulvic acid?
Can you reverse engineer superthrive?

You guys realize that plants need NPK Ca, Mg, S, Fe, right? How the hell do you expect to dial in on a good formula with all the unnecessary variables? How about starting from the beginning? (macro salts)

It seems like regardless of the approach people take to encourage the use of DIY nutes, the % of people that successfully convert is always very low (almost 0). I'm very suspicious of nutrient companies sending people into these threads to make DIY nutes look hard or like it will cause poor results.

If you have a hydroponic system and you're asking about humic acids to help chelate nutrients, it would make more sense to read up on DTPA and EDTA. That's the best solution to keeping micro-nutrients soluble, (iron DTPA).

@churchhaze I already have a nice formula fairly dialed in. Is it your position that there is no benefit from adding humic/fulvic or silicon?

churchhaze said:

Can you reverse engineer soluble glass?

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This is potassium silicate or sodium silicate, what the fuck are you talking about? Do you want me to provide you with the chemical processes used in production of potassium silicate? And then a tutorial on how to make potassium silicate?

churchhaze said:

Can you reverse engineer fulvic acid?

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Fulvic acid is a humate. Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? Do you want me to provide you with the chemical processes used in isolating fulvic acid from other humic acids?

churchhaze said:

Can you reverse engineer superthrive?

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Yeah, it can be done. Have I done it? No. Because it will cost me more money to do than it's worth. On top of that, most of what I've read what that product tells me it's not worth the money.

churchhaze said:

You guys realize that plants need NPK Ca, Mg, S, Fe, right? How the hell do you expect to dial in on a good formula with all the unnecessary variables? How about starting from the beginning? (macro salts)

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Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? What unnecessary variables are you talking about? Fertilizers aren't fucking hard. The entire thread is about using salts. You know that.

churchhaze said:

It seems like regardless of the approach people take to encourage the use of DIY nutes, the % of people that successfully convert is always very low (almost 0). I'm very suspicious of nutrient companies sending people into these threads to make DIY nutes look hard or like it will cause poor results.

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This actually happened when I posted this in IC Mag. One guy just kept writing up essay after essay about how doing this will kill the plants every time. All about how being off by 5-10% means the plants will die. He ended up getting banned for it.

And right now, I think you're the one who is trying to make this all look hard.

Everyone has questions regarding this. And it's primarily because they haven't done it before. I am happy to repeat answers to questions that have been asked over and over again. I am happy to do it until the end of days. So, seriously, stop trolling this thread.

churchhaze said:

If you have a hydroponic system and you're asking about humic acids to help chelate nutrients, it would make more sense to read up on DTPA and EDTA. That's the best solution to keeping micro-nutrients soluble, (iron DTPA).

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Humic acids chelate ALL nutrients and make for an easier uptake by the plants as well as a more stable feed solution.

Chelating agents such as EDTA, DTPA, EDDHA, glycine, etc. exist to chelate metals for use in stock solutions. They prevent the metals from reacting with anions in a replacement reaction. For example, chelated calcium can be used with potassium phosphates in concentrated stock solutions. The chelating agent prevents the calcium from reacting with phosphate and precipitating out of solution. The same things applies to all the chelated micronutrients. In large part, also, so that micronutrients can be used in stock solutions of varying pH.

guerrilla medic said:

@churchhaze I already have a nice formula fairly dialed in. Is it your position that there is no benefit from adding humic/fulvic or silicon?

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You will see benefits from using both.

MisterBlah said:

And right now, I think you're the one who is trying to make this all look hard.

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You'd think that, but so far I haven't seen a single response about someone trying one of these recipes and describing their success. You'd figure by this point someone would be having a eureka moment, but so far silence. You should be able to forgive me for being a bit cynical about this after years of trying myself to convince people that DIY nutes is not only worth it, but is easy and intuitive.

churchhaze said:

You'd think that, but so far I haven't seen a single response about someone trying one of these recipes and describing their success. You'd figure by this point someone would be having a eureka moment, but so far silence.

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I know ttystik is doing it right now, AFAIK, but he was using salts before as it was. A number of emails have come through the website thanking me for doing it. But, by and large, you're right. Most people aren't willing to try it.

churchhaze said:

You should be able to forgive me for being a bit cynical about this after years of trying myself to convince people that DIY nutes is not only worth it, but is easy and intuitive.

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I understand. And I get it. You've been trying to convince people for longer than I have. So I understand why you might be a bit cynical about it. But that's no reason to stop.

MisterBlah said:

What unnecessary variables are you talking about?

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Silica and humic acids. Amino acids.. Vitamins.. carbs.. These products are complete BS. Silica might "do something" in the sense that the plant might uptake it and put it somewhere, but there's no such thing a silicon deficiency and adding it will not make plants healthier or increase yield. I guess when you say the point of starting with reverse engineering popular brands as a stepping stone toward DIY nutes, it kind of contradicts when people are less interested in nutes more in finding the best way to feed their plants glass and humus. (that's not even what they eat)

churchhaze said:

Silica and humic acids. Amino acids.. Vitamins.. carbs.. These products are complete BS. Silica might "do something" in the sense that the plant might uptake it and put it somewhere, but there's no such thing a silicon deficiency and adding it will not make plants healthier or increase yield. I guess when you say the point of starting with reverse engineering popular brands as a stepping stone toward DIY nutes, it kind of contradicts when people are less interested in nutes more in finding the best way to feed their plants glass and humus. (that's not even what they eat)

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Silica has been proven to improve disease resistance, drought resistance, heavy metal toxicity, etc.

Humic acids have been proven to improve nutrient uptake.

Amino acids and vitamins, not so much.

Also, I don't understand how you're making the connection between a stepping stone toward DIY fertilizer blends and how that contradicts with people wanting to use silica or humates in their fertilizer blends.

MisterBlah said:

Also, I don't understand how you're making the connection between a stepping stone toward DIY fertilizer blends and how that contradicts with people wanting to use silica or humates in their fertilizer blends.

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The connection is that people have ADHD and come to a thread intended to teach DIY hydro nutes (i think) with the intention of learning the best way to apply humus and silicates. It really is a complete distraction. Humic acids should have nothing to do with a hydro grow. It's added to products purposefully to confuse people into thinking they're harder to reverse engineer than they really are. I can assure you that the humic acids in whatever nutrient product you're using will cause negligible difference, if any on growth.

Even though it might seem like there's strong evidence for the use of silica, there really isn't. I haven't seen a single study on silica that was properly controlled. Every single application of silica also included the addition of calcium or potassium, and did not make up for those added minerals in the control groups. For every 1 study on silica, there are 100 studies on phosphorous, and there's a really good reason for that. (no such thing as a silicon deficiency is a strong indication that it serves no purpose).

I know it really seems like my main intention is to troll this thread, but I honestly just don't get this. How are people supposed to learn the basics when they're so focused on... the shit.... Lesson 1... plants need N.

@MisterBlah well, stumbled into another interesting thread.. I shall give it all a read, just because its interesting and informative from a "You know nothing john snow" perspective.

Have you ever reverse engineered canna boost? I suspect its mainly kelp given the product claims match the known benefits of kelp. I have suspected it for a while since I use it (boost)and the smell and colour would seem to match. Anyway, I know nothing(almost literally). Onto page 1.
Nice work.