Religion: why you believe what you believe, and how can you prove it.

Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Dr.J20 said:


The long and short of this is a desire to stop you from making the mistake of thinking that reason, science, logic, and fact are or ought to be the preeminent qualities of existence. That is, these things are good, but they are not the absolute most important. There is something to be said for a the existence of the metaphysical, man's mythopoetic bent, the emotional, the spiritual. Hell, athletes provide a great intersection of the seemingly impossible and possible, as do musicians. Athletes must struggle with the physics of kinematics and musicians with the physics of acoustics and oscillations. But what they produce is oftentimes (at least the great ones) beyond their own capacities for explanation.
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If it interacts with reality, science can study it. If it does not interact with reality, what good is it? How is it distinguishable from fantasy? If something is completely beyond science (nature) then it is completely beyond reality and has no practical value, it is truly negligible. Can you name any great achievement that does not involve logic? What is a situation that has produced something useful that does not involve reason? Even metaphysical proponents, once they get done discounting the value of evidence, turn around and offer evidence. What these beliefs want, including religion, is not to discount the idea of evidential support, but to discount the standards we have for such support. They seek to widen the definition of what we call evidence.

You can read religious texts and pray with god for your whole life, you can sit in a cave and meditate for 40 years, you can spend every spare moment inside a sensory deprivation chamber on psychedelics communing with the universe, in none of these situation will you come out with any knowledge of physics, mathematics, thermodynamics, or anything of any substance at all. Metaphysical study does not deliver knowledge, just pretense. If you want to actually know ANYTHING you need study and logic.

There is nothing non-scientific or magical about what athletes and musicians accomplish, in fact many talents are made better once science offers an understanding of their mechanics.



All religion is not bad, and all those who claim allegiance to a religious faith are not proselytizing fatheaded fascists. Nor is all religion good and there are some assholes who pervert a religion based on that religion's text(s).
I'm sorry if my point came across the wrong way, I really only want to avoid conflating your average anti-gay, anti-drug, anti-fun, anti-freedom evangelist with the extremely enlightened buddhist, or hindu, or taoist, or jesuit, or rabbi, or Imam

Its always a spectrum and there's always a middle ground

be easy
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We are speaking of those religions (nearly all) that require surrender of the mind to ignorance and supposition. Even the most harmless seeming religion has the potential to cause harm when we favor fantasy over reality, as pointed out earlier with Amish shunning and suicide. The only reason there is a middleground is because science has filled in the gaps of our ignorance and religion is kept in check by policy. Just look at history during the times when religion had power, you wont see much tolerance for middleground. If most religions had their way, they would indeed seek to promote and enforce anti-human rights sentiments.
 
drive

drive

Active Member
hiensberg what about Haiti relief we have forgotton all about haiti but I know people that still go down building and suppling aid they go to catholic church
 
crazyhazey

crazyhazey

Well-Known Member
drive said:
LOL them priests are motha i mean kiddie fuckas
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haha yeah, i dont think theres been a not creepy priest in history, i guess its the ideology that rules are made to broken gone to an extreme, they rape/molest little kids, then 5 minutes later they go off and tell someone they're a sinner and god forgives them. its like a cop gone corrupt, but little boys are what corrupted them. if i was "god" id strike those fuckers with lightning.
 
Hugo Phurst

Hugo Phurst

Well-Known Member
m57outerblock.jpgSorry, I can't provide any "hard" evidence that God exists. On the other hand I can't prove the existence of multiple dimensions beyond our three, but I certainly believe they're there.

I don't look for the meaning of existenance in a book, I look at the universe.

Lolz, I was taught by my Minister(s) to question. The Bible is not the definative end all of how to live, I (try to)use it as a reference and guideline. It was re-written and edited by a politicaly motivated committee, whole books were removed because those in power didn't like what they said[short version].

Maybe, you have to be schizophrenic inorder for your brain to be wired correctly to hear Heaven and Hell. I don't know.

I guess faith means believing something that can't be proved. You know kinda like the unified quantum field theory, no direct evidence at all, nada, none, zip, zero.




 
Dr.J20

Dr.J20

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg, you and I agree on most everything about science; denying that there is value in anything that science can't study is just plain provincial. denying that there is anything magical about a musical performance or an athletic competition--when such things are at the zenith of their respective potentialities--is just sad.

I'm sorry that you find harm in even a religion like Buddhism.
I disagree that only the ignorant are faithful; I disagree that fantasy is valueless.
be easy
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Dr.J20 said:
Heisenberg, you and I agree on most everything about science; denying that there is value in anything that science can't study is just plain provincial. denying that there is anything magical about a musical performance or an athletic competition--when such things are at the zenith of their respective potentialities--is just sad.

I'm sorry that you find harm in even a religion like Buddhism.
I disagree that only the ignorant are faithful; I disagree that fantasy is valueless.
be easy
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I actually do not take the position that only the ignorant are faithful, as you'll see if you stick around or stumble on my past posts. Buddhism can offer a way to live life without accepting pretend answers, and is one religion I have relatively few problems with as I see it more as a discipline, but the potential for harm is still there because of it's superfluous nature and willingness to trust unfounded assumptions.

I can certainly see using a word like magical to describe some displays of talent, but there is nothing supernatural about the experience. I can see some value in fantasy, similar to the value I see in anecdotal evidence. It can be worthy of interest, even provide a platform for study, but can never be used on it's own merits to provide answers.

You claim faith or speculation exists in the fringes of science, but it is actually ingrained into the very process. The first few steps of the scientific method are all about speculation. The difference is in what we do with that speculation. In the end, any of the conclusions science offers have been distilled of faith and speculation via the process. There is no doubt fantasy can sometimes point us in the right direction to find answers, some of which might not have been discovered otherwise, but without intelligent inquiry, systematic doubt and consistent logic, it will never be more than fantasy.
 
NetGuruINC

NetGuruINC

Active Member
you guys want proof of the truth? go to youtube and type in "nde" and checkout near death experiences. EVERY video and i mean EVERY PERSON who had a near death experience has reported either going to hell or heaven, some went to heaven and saw Jesus and other relatives, some went to hell and saw torment. This is TRUE stuff you guys NEED to check it out theres tons of these videos of people reporting their NDE. Jesus is the truth and the only way, do the research on NDE's (Near Death Experiences)
 
crazyhazey

crazyhazey

Well-Known Member
NetGuruINC said:
you guys want proof of the truth? go to youtube and type in "nde" and checkout near death experiences. EVERY video and i mean EVERY PERSON who had a near death experience has reported either going to hell or heaven, some went to heaven and saw Jesus and other relatives, some went to hell and saw torment. This is TRUE stuff you guys NEED to check it out theres tons of these videos of people reporting their NDE. Jesus is the truth and the only way, do the research on NDE's (Near Death Experiences)
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have you ever heard of the pinneal gland? well all of it is released when you die(or nearly die), so you basically go into a really intense DMT trip. i admit i have spoken/met spirits on DMT, but i never went to heaven or hell, just what we like to call hyper space. its the depths of your mind, your trips reflect your life, personality, culture, etc. theres much that goes into account, but jesus isnt the answer im sorry. do some DMT if you find yourself wanting more answers, you may find more about yourself than you want to know. people may be so committed to the fallacy that they will either go to heaven or hell, this has been hypothetically branded into their minds, so yes, their trip may exhibit some more religious views, once again, trips will reflect your life basically. when i trip, i dont see gods, rather orbs of light and amazing sights, last time i did it was a few months ago but i remember floating in space seeing things i never knew existed. i believe we use the other 90% of our mind when we allow our pinneal glad to release DMT, but this of course is just theory.

if you really want "truth", you must have proof. although DMT does teach you much, you wont learn about your surrounds but rather yourself, the individual. if you want to see something truly amazing, look up orions belt seen through the hubble telescope. thats the closest thing to what we would define as a god, just my opinion although.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
NetGuruINC said:
you guys want proof of the truth? go to youtube and type in "nde" and checkout near death experiences. EVERY video and i mean EVERY PERSON who had a near death experience has reported either going to hell or heaven, some went to heaven and saw Jesus and other relatives, some went to hell and saw torment. This is TRUE stuff you guys NEED to check it out theres tons of these videos of people reporting their NDE. Jesus is the truth and the only way, do the research on NDE's (Near Death Experiences)
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How is a disruption in normal brain function evidence for Jesus?

NDE's are nothing new, and very few people actually report seeing heaven or hell specifically. Some see flames, some see a bright light, some float above their body, some review moments from thier life, some float through a foggy tunnel, some hear buzzing and tones, some see relatives, both dead and alive... the list is actually pretty big, and none of these happen within the same experience. What's more interesting is the staggering number of people who come near death and do not experience anything. I guess most of us do not get to go either place.

If you are going to be impressed by the similarities in the stories, then you must acknowledge that other experiences humans have are almost identical. Divers or pilots experiencing rapid pressure change, people taking LSD, people fasting for long periods, people who are dreaming, and people suffering from schizophrenia all have NDE's that have nothing to do with death. The common thread is altered brain function.
 
420IAMthatIAM

420IAMthatIAM

Active Member
Heisenberg said:
I actually do not take the position that only the ignorant are faithful, as you'll see if you stick around or stumble on my past posts. Buddhism can offer a way to live life without accepting pretend answers, and is one religion I have relatively few problems with as I see it more as a discipline, but the potential for harm is still there because of it's superfluous nature and willingness to trust unfounded assumptions.

I can certainly see using a word like magical to describe some displays of talent, but there is nothing supernatural about the experience. I can see some value in fantasy, similar to the value I see in anecdotal evidence. It can be worthy of interest, even provide a platform for study, but can never be used on it's own merits to provide answers.

You claim faith or speculation exists in the fringes of science, but it is actually ingrained into the very process. The first few steps of the scientific method are all about speculation. The difference is in what we do with that speculation. In the end, any of the conclusions science offers have been distilled of faith and speculation via the process. There is no doubt fantasy can sometimes point us in the right direction to find answers, some of which might not have been discovered otherwise, but without intelligent inquiry, systematic doubt and consistent logic, it will never be more than fantasy.
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look at buck rogers:leaf:
 
E

esc420211

Well-Known Member
I think that there are a lot of problems with the bible. Like god made us in his image humans are too imperfect. and regarding the priests who molest children, dont you think they would be drawn to such an occupation. I would like to become a priest to help people. And if you read the beginning of the bible it says there was darkness(pre big bang), then there was light (big bang). makes sense to me
 
crazyhazey

crazyhazey

Well-Known Member
esc420211 said:
I think that there are a lot of problems with the bible. Like god made us in his image humans are too imperfect. and regarding the priests who molest children, dont you think they would be drawn to such an occupation. I would like to become a priest to help people. And if you read the beginning of the bible it says there was darkness(pre big bang), then there was light (big bang). makes sense to me
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so all priests that became child rapists knew before that they were such a thing? who aspires to tell people they're sinners, and recite the lies of the bible. not myself, im sorry but religion is too corrupt nowadays, any outside beliefs are met with arrogance by most churches. and please dont tell me you thought the people who wrote the bible knew about the big bang theory. that didnt come till many, many years later.
 
Zaehet Strife

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
Dr.J20 said:
I'm sorry, this has gotten out of hand...
this bit about cherry picking makes no sense: so human judgment should never be exercised? we should discard anything if it is ever wrong on any single point? a single wrong statement invalidates an entire work?

you have no idea what you're talking about right now. this is not an insult or a criticism, it has become apparent that you're talking about things you have not yet researched. This is not a bad thing entirely, as it is encouraging to see such curiosity. YOu should satisfy this curiosity.

Your anger seems to lie with the earthly manifestations of faith. there will be no proof for a belief, that is why it is a belief.
given my rendition of "religion" (i.e. its definition) atheism is most certainly a religion: a group of people who say we believe X and will use X as our guiding principle for the cultivation of a peaceful, happy existence.

get some rest, if you want to continue these kinds of debates its going to take a lot.

In honesty, and i don't want to sound preachy or condescending here, but it sounds like you're doing what corrupted religions themselves do: find a scapegoat for the earth's ills, a tidy simple answer for why all thats wrong is wrong...

if you took away religion people would find something else to fight about pal, thats the value of all these ancient texts...read some virgil, we've been longing for a peaceful pastoral since before christ. literally. So, take heart, I know it seems like theres a ton of bad shit in the world, but there's a lot of good, so no matter your views on religion, living ethically and morally, and really considering every action, you'll live a healthy happy life

be easy
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If we have a word for people who don't believe in god... why isn't there a word for people who don't believe in golf, or santa clause, or fairies? Are these non-golfers/fairyists/clausians considered a religious group? or maybe considered a non-religious group?

It seems to me that from the day we are born the default position is "i dont know what the fuck is going on, i dont really know if what i know is what i really know, its scary, awesome and crazy all at the same time" -Atheist.

Atheist is the default position to life, the position we held from the day we were born... we never claim truth to anything that we really don't know, or to ideas that cannot hold up to the burdens of proof.

It seems as if when we are growing up from babyhood into childhood, the ideas that we are given by other humans tend to lead us towards "beliefs" which are IN FACT just IDEAS that we claim truth to... which is absurd when taking into consideration there is no inherent truth when dealing with theology/metaphysics/spirituality. -because these ideas can only be viewed subjectively...
 
Zaehet Strife

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
Beliefs are ideas. It's just that beliefs are a certain type of idea, beliefs are ideas that hold claim to some sort of truth factor.

Ideas (beliefs) that cannot stand up to the scrutinies of the burden of proof are fallacious ideas.

Unless the idea is star wars, legend of zelda or lord of the rings... because those are cool fuckin ideas. (which do not have to stand up to the burdens of proof, because it is not saying that it is true)

But if the idea is god... in my humble opinion, that's a stupid fuckin idea that takes the responsibilities of being human and of our world and throws them into the clouds.

^i don't have to take care of it, something else will
^things are going exactly how they should be going
^i dont need to change, god will change me

Countless ideas that we have in order for us to slip out of the hold that responsibility shackles to us. Responsibility for choosing who we are, what we are, why we are. Responsibility for feeling good about ourselves, and helping others do the same. Responsibility for our environment, and the culture that breeds the types of humans that will arise from generations to come. Responsibility for the actions we take, and the consequences of those actions.
 
Zaehet Strife

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg said:
How is a disruption in normal brain function evidence for Jesus?

NDE's are nothing new, and very few people actually report seeing heaven or hell specifically. Some see flames, some see a bright light, some float above their body, some review moments from thier life, some float through a foggy tunnel, some hear buzzing and tones, some see relatives, both dead and alive... the list is actually pretty big, and none of these happen within the same experience. What's more interesting is the staggering number of people who come near death and do not experience anything. I guess most of us do not get to go either place.

If you are going to be impressed by the similarities in the stories, then you must acknowledge that other experiences humans have are almost identical. Divers or pilots experiencing rapid pressure change, people taking LSD, people fasting for long periods, people who are dreaming, and people suffering from schizophrenia all have NDE's that have nothing to do with death. The common thread is altered brain function.
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If anyone wants to get an eerie feeling, or freaked out. Check out the similarities in "night terrors/sleep paralysis" when i was 17 years old i had episodes every night for about 3 weeks until i made up my mind and conquered the fear, and ive never had them since. But man, what the fuck? Demons really? Im thinking the similarities are caused by demons being a humans worst fear, from the indoctrination or just the ideas of a "hell" and dead beings being in our subconscious. But the truth is... (as i say for most every case) the truth is, i just don't know. Not enough evidence.
 
crazyhazey

crazyhazey

Well-Known Member
Zaehet Strife said:
If anyone wants to get an eerie feeling, or freaked out. Check out the similarities in "night terrors/sleep paralysis" when i was 17 years old i had episodes every night for about 3 weeks until i made up my mind and conquered the fear, and ive never had them since. But man, what the fuck? Demons really? Im thinking the similarities are caused by demons being a humans worst fear, from the indoctrination or just the ideas of a "hell" and dead beings being in our subconscious. But the truth is... (as i say for most every case) the truth is, i just don't know. Not enough evidence.
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i hate to try to simplify things, but dimethytryptamine will show you thing about yourself you may not want to know. your worst fears could be shown if your in the wrong state of mind, such as demons, hell, etc. these are all things in the depths of your imagination, your pinneal gland is just to doorway to these visions. if your end goal in life was to get to heaven, you may see the light at the end of the tunnel that all christians claim to see when they undergo a near death experience. dreams and other visions seen by your mind already exist in your mind, remember we use a very small percentage of our brains, some other parts become active when dimethytryptamine is introduced to it. theres an explanation for all the things you see, your the only one who knows the answers since they were drawn from your memory, or rather your imagination. when you were 17, was there anything negative that may have happened prior to these night terrors? perhaps the death of a loved one, or a something really traumatic that may have taken place?
 
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