Refined vs Unrefined.. Another one of those organic threads..

Sometimes it's hard to find the time for my MM work. We have a disp. that is still accepted and remains open in our state. Even though they are not "supposed" to be open (It is up to the county to decide though). I have to employ several people to cover that and still come in at least once a day to oversee the op"s".
 
Thanks dr. who! Much appreciated that you have shared your wisdom as well! We definitely have a lot of similarities in our train of thoughts.. and like you said, growing only gets better with time and trying new things is what keeps growing exciting and new. I've only been growing for about 14 or 15 years and there is so much to learn. I'll definitely look into the revs tlo, it sounds great! I can't wait until spring time to get a veggie garden going again, I swear the veggies that come out of your own garden taste so much better than anything in a store.
 
I'm 55 and put my first plant in the ground at 15 on a commune in the hills in NorCal......It's been a long road. I had some great teachers along the way too.
I quit my job at an international drug company several years ago to bring the organic co-op farm together.
I have never been happier in my life!
My sons are looking to follow in my farming footsteps.
My oldest is applying to MSU (his mother wants him to apply to more schools but it seems that is his only choice) and I have been told he's accepted as soon as they get the papers.
The youngest is applying to CalPoly, MSU and U of Oregon and I'll bet he's going to have to choose.
The organic farming methods we employ are the hot thing in Ag science today. Like I said. We have a waiting list to get in our Intern program.

(oh yeah, I've got to say we do not do dairy. I believe that children should get human milk and not animal or "formula" for the first 2 years of life or the "nursing" period. I do make some of my own raw butter as I have been spoiled with that in Europe when I traveled and the wife likes to make some home made cheese's).
 
That is awesome Dr who! Congrats on the kids following in your shoes, that's gotta be a good feeling. You are doing it right by doing organics outside, hands down, any outdoor farming should be organic. It certainly is the best and healthiest for nature and consumption. I totally agree with you about the nursing as well, though I don't have my own kids, I feel that this is the way nature intended. So cool that you have your own organic farm, I hope many farmers convert in the future. I feel that organic meat is much healthier also. Free range cows are by far the BEST meat available. I have not had the pleasure of having organic cheese but cheese is one of my favorite foods and boy that does sound good! I love the natural fresh milk that comes in the glass bottles, but I'm guilty of not knowing what is behind the product? It tastes much better in my opinion and I think it's organic? I'm not sure though but I make it a habit to buy the glass bottled milk :p I aways love the summer times when the farm stands start selling food, I admit the fresh organic food is great and when purchased from a farm stand, it's not more expensive, mostly cheaper and healthier. And your lucky having traveled to Europe, it's on my bucket list. I've never traveled out of the US, besides Canada, but traveling is my favorite hobby. I've almost been to every state and love the diversity. It was great chatting and throwing around ideas Dr. Who. Feel free to chime in if this thread ever grows.
 
I think added preservatives and pesticides play a huge role, because synthetic commercial farming is done in dirt, which the dirt creates the need for pesticides. I am 100% against synthetic farming in dirt. That's what hydroponics is for, if growing in dirt definitely grow organic.. Just my opinion... Because dirt was not made for chemical nutrients and it defeats the whole purpose of growing in dirt when you use chemicals. Here's a good article about foods that were tested. It touches base on how some foods are better grown organically while many are not worth the cost because synthetic was better. But, they do not compare hydroponically grown, which imo would be a better test, as stated above I do not like the fact of growing in soil and using synthetic nutes... Though I have grown many mother plants in miracle grow, I have never flowered them. I just grow them in mg for clones. I agree that it seems cancer has been more wide spread recently, but the reason I'm not sure of. Many people do not take care of thier body and in return can make you sick. I honestly blame big pharmacy for the wide spread cancers. If you think about it, the more medicine advances, the more people get sick. It could be a key factor, taking a pill to cure one thing and having it cause another problem. As seen in many medicine class action court cases about a certain medicine killing people. There's a lot to consider and it's nearly impossible to pin point the casue of many widespread problems because I believe that it's a combination of things.

"We decided to find out. We sent two samples of: lettuce, broccoli, chicken and milk to Sani Pure Labs in Saddle River, NJ to be analyzed. The testers did not know which ones were organic and which were conventional. What we found was surprising.

Ron Schnitzer of Sani Pure Labs revealed, “There was a really significant difference between the organic produce and the conventional produce.” As it turned out, the organic broccoli and lettuce had much higher levels of bacteria than the conventional. It’s not harmful bacteria, but it is bacteria that will spoil your produce much quicker. And what that means to the shopper who is spending more for organic, is the product will have a much shorter shelf life.

Well maybe we can live with lettuce that turns brown faster, but what about poultry? When I smelled the conventional chicken at the lab a week later, it had an odor. When I smelled the organic chicken the stench was almost unbearable. “A week later even held at zero degrees it’s putrid whereas its counterpart held identically, still is satisfactory” says Schnitzer.

Grossed out yet? We'll give you a break. The milk although often twice the price of conventional was identical. Schnitzer finds, “Microbiologically we couldn’t tell the difference between organic milk and conventional milk.”

We wondered why the organic almost always had a shorter shelf life. When you think of organic you think "straight from the farm." Anderson explains, "The distribution systems for organic products just aren’t as well developed as they are for conventional agriculture products.” So what that means is it takes longer to get to the market than the well-oiled conventional system. Anderson advises shopping at farmer’s markets to get the freshest organic produce possible. If you do buy organic from the supermarket make sure you check the produce for brown spots or spoilage and use the product as soon as you can. The same goes for poultry.

But many people shop to promote a better environment for our crops as well as for our livestock. One thing that cannot be tested is the way animals have been treated while used for producing a product.

Is it worth the price? That’s for you to decide.

What you saw on "Today"
Here's more about some of the foods discussed on the show:

Other organic foods worth considering:
Milk, beef, poultry
Reduce the risk of exposure to the agent believed to cause mad cow disease and minimize exposure to other potential toxins in non-organic feed. These foods containno hormones, and antibiotics, which have been linked to increased antibacterial resistance in humans. They often cost 100 percent more than conventional products.

No need to go organic with these foods:
Fruit
Bananas, kiwi, mangos, papaya, pineapples Vegetables
Asparagus, avocado, broccoli, cauliflower, corn, onions, peas
These products generally do not contain pesticide residue.Seafood
Wild or farmed fish can be labeled organic, despite the presence of contaminants such as mercury and PCBs. There are no USDA organic certification standards for seafood. Producers are allowed to make their own organic claims.Cosmetics
Having "organic" or "natural" in its name doesn't necessarily mean it's safer. Only 11 percent of ingredients found in personal-care products, organic or not, have ever been screened for safety.

Managing the high cost of organic foods

Why does organic cost more?
Growing the food is more labor-intensive. And even though organic food is a growing industry, it doesn't have the economies of scale or government subsidies available to conventional growers."
OK, I was silently observing this all from a neutral distance, but i'd like to add one important thing (at least to me), the primary reason I choose organic foods, sure a small part is the fertilizers being used, but for me? its the pesticides that worry me, it's virtually impossible to rinse it all off your food, they have so many surfectants that are chemically designed for the pesticides to stick to the plant.
That shit Is scary, something that can magically make an insect sterile, or kill it for months after application, or make the insects all one sex, or whatever.
 
You're right on greasemonky, I think we touched down on that topic a little and the consensus is anything outdoor should be organic. I don't like pesticides at all and with hydroponics the need for them is very minimal. So hands down outdoor grown foods, or anything, should be organic and pesticide free. Until hydroponics is established for outdoor use, organics has any other form of growing beat.
 
Veggies.. lets talk about veggies, theories and observations of mine..

Lets start with what we do know..

1) Organic or Synthetic, the plant will eat either..
2) We have seen in one test that people cannot tell the difference.. when eating tomatoes.
3) My own experience between soil and organic hydro is that they can't tell either when smoking. The only difference I can tell is in the raw product, but I think its personal bias.

So why does a hothouse tomato grown have such a lame taste compared to a tomato from Southern California or Mexico thats organic grown in somebodys backyard.. Its the LIGHT.

If you haven't read DJ's Shorts book "Cultivating Exceptional Cannabis" He prefers MH light and Natural Sunlight over artificial light or HPS light he also show preference to mixed MH/HPS light. And organic feeding. And after doing a few crops under MH, it does make a difference.. great density and better smell. DJ says the colors come out better.. but I never messed with those crops so I cant say. I will say that MH+HPS crops are literally the best crops ive done.

If you've ever grown veggies or herbs inside and you'll notice a difference in structure. This is just a guess of mine but I think organic vegtables are more likely to be grown outside in full sun and chemical fed veggies like hot house tomatoes are grown indoors, and most likely supplemented with mh/hps lighting. I think this is why people confuse the quality of organics with chemical fed stuff.

A favorite example of mine is chives grown under MH in a RDWC chemical feed. They are thinner but they actually have a sharper taste vs a full sun chive. The full sun chive is just _better_ even if it was fed with a chemical feed.

Sun Ripened, organic food.. sounds yummy to me.. Same with pot..
 
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You know what I've always wanted to do? It's been a dream of mine for a long time. When I get a chance to build my own house I want to have basically a sun room. Glass ceilings and walls ect, that way I can control temps because it is inside, but at the same time I can grow hydroponics under the sun. I do find that the sun can make certain aspects of the flowers different. It's pretty easy to tell when something is sun grown, in my experience anyway, and I do like sun grown. I mean, I have had better results with certain strains indoors than out, but that's just strain dependent I'm guessing, some strains are bred for indoor breeding (so I've read).. Not sure how it's possible to do something like that but that's what some breeders claim in their strain summaries.
 
The properties you look for when you're trying to market a tomato have to do mostly with size, shape and color, so there's no incentive to grow smaller, more nutritious and flavorful tomatoes if you're trying to compete in a supermarket.

Tomatoes grown in a higher concentration nutrient solution tend to grow smaller, but more flavorful tomatoes with more nutritional value.

So why does a hothouse tomato grown have such a lame taste compared to a tomato from Southern California or Mexico thats organic grown in somebodys backyard.. Its the LIGHT.
 
GGwild.......You've hit the nail squarely son!

The REV. uses only MH when he grows! It's in his book, but he doesn't make a big point of it. You have to catch that by yourself when you read it!

I switch to MH from HPS just before the start of the Bulking Phase (a week). I run the HPS to help with the transition from Veg to Bloom by switching a week before the "flip". I have no science to back up my method. But, I do it this way from experience and habit. I have found I get better tasting, larger yields as you describe.

BTW, the MH are run BARE for the added UVB. Not alot, but it DOES make a difference.

If you run anything outside. I think you may find that if you place prevegged and bloom induced plants out near the natural flip you can get shorter node spacing and heavier bud production in size and weight. The buds are not "quite" as dense, but the finish is faster and outdoor bloomed plants "seem" to have a higher or more intense psychoactive effect with less couchlock. The science say's that this is due to particular terp increase's made by the interaction of more complete spectral exposure of the sun.

One must realize that the sun's spectrum has had an effect on plants from the dawn of time. Plants therefor respond to this in ways we have not yet been able to exactly replicate indoors or with man made lighting.

Plasma lighting has "more" of an available spectrum,,,,,BUT, still does not replicate exactly the sun's spectral qualities in so much as it has to much of some nanometer ranges. This seems to blunt that ability of the plant to reproduce a better psychoactive effect as that "proper" spectral range of the sun it's self.

One of my partners has the new High Times and said I should read it as it has "science" in a piece on psychoactive effects and the relation to terp's. He said something about they have narrowed it down to certain one's and they list them.
I have not read it yet. I think I better as it seems to cross reference some of what we are discussing here!

Oh, btw,,,I can tell the dif between hydro and organic soil grows in taste......of course, I've had a lot of time to try that one out.

Veggies.. lets talk about veggies, theories and observations of mine..

Lets start with what we do know..

1) Organic or Synthetic, the plant will eat either..
2) We have seen in one test that people cannot tell the difference.. when eating tomatoes.
3) My own experience between soil and organic hydro is that they can't tell either when smoking. The only difference I can tell is in the raw product, but I think its personal bias.

So why does a hothouse tomato grown have such a lame taste compared to a tomato from Southern California or Mexico thats organic grown in somebodys backyard.. Its the LIGHT.

If you haven't read DJ's Shorts book "Cultivating Exceptional Cannabis" He prefers MH light and Natural Sunlight over artificial light or HPS light he also show preference to mixed MH/HPS light. And organic feeding. And after doing a few crops under MH, it does make a difference.. great density and better smell. DJ says the colors come out better.. but I never messed with those crops so I cant say. I will say that MH+HPS crops are literally the best crops ive done.

If you've ever grown veggies or herbs inside and you'll notice a difference in structure. This is just a guess of mine but I think organic vegtables are more likely to be grown outside in full sun and chemical fed veggies like hot house tomatoes are grown indoors, and most likely supplemented with mh/hps lighting. I think this is why people confuse the quality of organics with chemical fed stuff.

A favorite example of mine is chives grown under MH in a RDWC chemical feed. They are thinner but they actually have a sharper taste vs a full sun chive. The full sun chive is just _better_ even if it was fed with a chemical feed.

Sun Ripened, organic food.. sounds yummy to me.. Same with pot..
 
Yes, no light bulb could ever come close to mimicking the sun, that's for sure! Definitely won't get 5-6lb plants from an indoor grow, no way no how lol. It's amazing what the sun can do, I've had sun grown plants that I put out late at only 10" tall that still yielded 2 pounds. That's one month veg and 7 weeks flower, in ny, with frost on the ground in September! Speaking of the sun.. I think my hps is on it's last leg so I just had to order another... The sun is free, the sun wins every time 8-)
 
Check this out guys. I use these AIT "air stones" for my dwc buckets, but this seems like a AWESOME product for soil. I really want to give it a shot with organics in the near future. Very interesting!

 
Oh, btw,,,I can tell the dif between hydro and organic soil grows in taste......of course, I've had a lot of time to try that one out.

Debatable..

I have a pomegranite tree down south that gets nothing but compost topdressing from kitchen waste and an orange tree that gets the same treatment. It is not better than export grade "fancy" grade fruit. Period.

Ill say it again.. organic does not always equal superior quality. My fruit would be classified on a lower grade.
It is pesticide free, with no synthetic feeds. Is the fancy grade better?.. I dont think so either. I dont know the pesticide treatment for oranges or pom's so I dont know. It does look more presentable.

Yeah but does it taste better?... I dont think it does, it tastes great.. but not better, I acutally think my pom tree is a bit thin on the taste, but then again, vs the fancy grade (think how many were rejected to get this one) My randomly picked pom, was just fine.. Its just the juice i'm after..

Ive spent alot of time developing my pallet too... Ive got lots of friends in the hospitality industry so my taste buds get a pretty good workout.
 
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