Prop 8 : what has this state and country came to ?

ReefBongwell

ReefBongwell

Well-Known Member
I agree except for the fact that as a libertarian freedom of association would be guaranteed. Outlawing political parties isn't possible in a libertarian form of government. Education is the key... unless libertarians can find a way to convince enough of the left and right to take up our position, it's all irrelevant. Unlike the left and right, we don't believe in imposing our ideals on everyone else gestapo-style...
 
BustinScales510

BustinScales510

Well-Known Member
TWS said:
I respect the views on gay marriage but do oppose it. What I don't respect is the supreme court over ruling the peoples vote and doing what they please. This is scary. :shock: This means one panel of judges can over throw our Prop 215 at their will. The only reason they won't because they won't recognize it as the will of the people to start with it. Just like prop 8. Our government is nothing but a tyrant and Im starting to feel third world for sure.
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Haha, I like this..youre worried about "your" prop 215.

Would that be the same prop 215 that was written by Dennis Peron? A gay activist who did it so his friends that were dying of AIDS would be able to smoke something to help the nausea. He opened the countries first dispensary before there were any state laws protecting it and fought hard to keep it open and create legislation so ALL Californian adults could access marijuana legally.
 
ReefBongwell

ReefBongwell

Well-Known Member
That's a ridiculous argument. No one said gay people weren't great people. That's what a lot of pro-gay marriage people don't get. People that are against it don't just all hate gay people and want to oppress them. They just don't believe the definition of marriage from the dawn of time has to be changed. The poster you replied to's issue had nothing to do with gay marriage -- he simply said he didn't want the vote of the people overriden by the courts, something your argument also says nothing about... this is another reason a lot of people are put off by the gay-marriage movement. If you bring up a real issue like this for discussion, you're basically slammed as a homophobe automatically. In fact, the supreme court ruling itself basically said if you don't believe in gay marriage your'e a homophobe, so yeah it's upsetting to some people. I'm happy that gay people are happy to make progress towards getting gay marriage -- but you shoot yourself in the foot by constantly inflaming the other side unnecessarily. There are a lot of homophobes against gay marriage, but just because you're not a raving gay marriage supporter doesn't mean you hate gay people. There are people who are on the fence on the issue as well who your side pisses off by constantly making that argument. Personally as a libertarian I not only feel the right shouldn't be infringed, I don't think the government should be in the position of determining who is or isn't married and which marriages meet their approval. If the government weren't giving benefits and discrminating based on marital status, then it wouldn't really be a very big issue since there's nothing illegal about two gay people getting married -- just that the government doesn't recognize the marriage.
 
BustinScales510

BustinScales510

Well-Known Member
Well if you vote for gay people to be treated differently and be denied the rights straight couples have, it doesnt really matter how great you think they are because your actions say otherwise. And who cares about inflaming the other side unnecessarily, thats the exact same thing all these other states have been doing with their constitutional amendments to make gay marriage double and triple illegal,so your arguments are ridiculous too
 
D619

D619

Well-Known Member
Gay people should have the same " Rights " as straight people. The question of changing the definition of marriage is the arguement that seems to get mixed up with Gay Rights. I personally could care less of how anyone defines marriage. How about completely abolish the word marriage and call it a Domestic Agreement / inion between 2 aldults that gives all the same benefits as a Marriage whether your Gay or Straight. People should be judged on character period.
 
T

TWS

Well-Known Member
ReefBongwell said:
That's a ridiculous argument. No one said gay people weren't great people. That's what a lot of pro-gay marriage people don't get. People that are against it don't just all hate gay people and want to oppress them. They just don't believe the definition of marriage from the dawn of time has to be changed. The poster you replied to's issue had nothing to do with gay marriage -- he simply said he didn't want the vote of the people overriden by the courts, something your argument also says nothing about... this is another reason a lot of people are put off by the gay-marriage movement. If you bring up a real issue like this for discussion, you're basically slammed as a homophobe automatically. In fact, the supreme court ruling itself basically said if you don't believe in gay marriage your'e a homophobe, so yeah it's upsetting to some people. I'm happy that gay people are happy to make progress towards getting gay marriage -- but you shoot yourself in the foot by constantly inflaming the other side unnecessarily. There are a lot of homophobes against gay marriage, but just because you're not a raving gay marriage supporter doesn't mean you hate gay people. There are people who are on the fence on the issue as well who your side pisses off by constantly making that argument. Personally as a libertarian I not only feel the right shouldn't be infringed, I don't think the government should be in the position of determining who is or isn't married and which marriages meet their approval. If the government weren't giving benefits and discrminating based on marital status, then it wouldn't really be a very big issue since there's nothing illegal about two gay people getting married -- just that the government doesn't recognize the marriage.
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Thanks for saving me the ink from people who can't read or jump to conclusions.
 
T

TWS

Well-Known Member
D619 said:
Gay people should have the same " Rights " as straight people. The question of changing the definition of marriage is the arguement that seems to get mixed up with Gay Rights. I personally could care less of how anyone defines marriage. How about completely abolish the word marriage and call it a Domestic Agreement / inion between 2 aldults that gives all the same benefits as a Marriage whether your Gay or Straight. People should be judged on character period.
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Maybe so... Im just stuck on a panel of judges overturning the vote of the people. just scary is all.
 
ReefBongwell

ReefBongwell

Well-Known Member
BustinScales510 said:
Well if you vote for gay people to be treated differently and be denied the rights straight couples have, it doesnt really matter how great you think they are because your actions say otherwise. And who cares about inflaming the other side unnecessarily, thats the exact same thing all these other states have been doing with their constitutional amendments to make gay marriage double and triple illegal,so your arguments are ridiculous too
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So I see you care more about feeling smug and superior than actually helping your side, eh?? Guess you didn't really read what I said based on the comments at all.
 
BustinScales510

BustinScales510

Well-Known Member
Dont start calling names or make it personal man, I didnt stoop there with you. I havent called anyone homophobic and I dont know where you get smug or superior from. The second post I made directly referenced things you said in your post, so I dont know why you would think I didnt read it.

Its not like the courts just bulldozed in outta nowhere to reverse the will of the people. California made gay marriage legal, and then religious groups (most from out of state) created prop 8 and ran a multimillion dollar ad campaign on tv that just talked about protecting children,they didnt even mention "gay". It won narrowly and was immediately challenged as unconstitutional. To say that because it was overturned we need to worry about the supreme court overturning prop 215 seems disingenuous and misguided.
 
BustinScales510

BustinScales510

Well-Known Member
D619 said:
Gay people should have the same " Rights " as straight people. The question of changing the definition of marriage is the arguement that seems to get mixed up with Gay Rights. I personally could care less of how anyone defines marriage. How about completely abolish the word marriage and call it a Domestic Agreement / inion between 2 aldults that gives all the same benefits as a Marriage whether your Gay or Straight. People should be judged on character period.
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I think at one point this could have worked. Domestic partnerships and civil unions were intended to fill that role,but the benefits and legal protections that they came with were whittled down to a paltry gain compared to actual marriage so they fell by the wayside for the most part.
 
ReefBongwell

ReefBongwell

Well-Known Member
You didn't respond to my argument, you just threw your 2 cents that anyone that's not for same sex marriage is a bad person, but I guess that's not insulting people? I wish you'd listen to my point, but I guess you won't. When you don't respond to what people are saying and bulldoze through it with an ad hominem attack like that, they tend to not support you. A lot of people are on the fence about it. I don't have anything against gay marriage and wouldn't really say i'm a supporter either other than government should step out.. however people who do what you did and come in not trying to understand the other side at all and just saying if you're not 100% for gay marriage you're not a good person makes me care a lot less. If you want to make people care less, you're succeeding. Ignoring what people say and calling them bad wins you nobody. As my post said, I guess you don't care about winning people to your side -- if you did you'd be trying a different tactic... i'm not sure what's not true about that. Agree with you on civil unions. I don't really blame people for wanting gay marriage, especially after how that expiriment went -- I just hate when people like you and others who are hardcore gay marriage supporters shit all over anybody who's not for their position. Yes, that's what the other side does too, but like I said there are a lot of people in the middle. It's a lot better to win an argument by convincing people rather than ramming it down their throats and saying 'screw you.' That doesn't feel any better to the other side than when it's done to the gay community. OK I'm going to ignore the obvious joke when combining those last two sentences.
 
BustinScales510

BustinScales510

Well-Known Member
Well,to that I would say this. A lot of people have been waiting a really long time (some their whole lives). No minority group has gotten equality by politely courting the other side and waiting patiently,it doesnt work. Some people might not like the way things are happening or the pace that they are happening at, but anyone whose support is that conditional and tentative probably wasnt a friend to the movement to begin with. Things will move inexorably forward with them or without them. I know that sounds abrasive but it's vividly clear that there isnt a way for this to move forward with the support of everyone.
 
ReefBongwell

ReefBongwell

Well-Known Member
Once again you don't listen. This is an example. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Luckily for you I wouldn't really vote against gay marriage because of people like you. You just make me WANT to. But I expect you'll shrug it off. It'll just make it that much longer til gay people get their rights, but I don't expect you to realize people like you are an impediment to that.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
TWS said:
Maybe so... Im just stuck on a panel of judges overturning the vote of the people. just scary is all.
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what about when they overturned segregation against the will of the people?

what you're not understanding is that you are not allowed to vote on another peson's civil rights. this is a constitutional republic that guarantees equal protection of the law.

"rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections."

ReefBongwell said:
People that are against it don't just all hate gay people and want to oppress them. They just don't believe the definition of marriage from the dawn of time has to be changed....you're basically slammed as a homophobe automatically.
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as it should be.

there's no argument against marriage equality that doesn't depend on homophobia in some way.

and check a history book, the "definition" of marriage has gone through a mighty bunch of changes "from the dawn of time". currently, marriage is defined as a civil bond between adults for legal and economic purposes, making it a civil right. it used to be just a way of keeping someone else as property or keeping wealth within certain lines.

so the "from the dawn of time" argument is a horrible one, as is every single other one you could try to pass off as non-bigoted.
 
ReefBongwell

ReefBongwell

Well-Known Member
And UncleBuck rides in to save the day and take it to the extreme... at least the one thing I respect about him is he speaks his mind :) I present exhibit A.
 
ReefBongwell

ReefBongwell

Well-Known Member
PS - In case your 'reading compensation' has failed you again my argument isn't against gay marriage... it's against the way in which some people conduct the campaign for it... and I have a feeling if I wait long enough Uncle Buck will now prove my point ;)
 
M

Mithrandir420

Well-Known Member
TWS said:
Maybe so... Im just stuck on a panel of judges overturning the vote of the people. just scary is all.
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The People are morons. Seriously, this is why we live in a representative democracy and NOT a direct democracy. It's why we are a republic. Let's try the very easy argument on for size. There are states in the south where re instituting slavery would probably win. If the people vote for it should we do it? As I said, you don't vote on a persons civil rights. It's not right to vote whether or not to oppress people. If you voted for prop 8 that's all you did. You didn't save anything or stop anything. All you did was knowingly and consciously vote to oppress a group of people you don't like. And that's fucked up.
ReefBongwell said:
And UncleBuck rides in to save the day and take it to the extreme... at least the one thing I respect about him is he speaks his mind :) I present exhibit A.
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It's not the extremes, it's the OBVIOUS. It's the easy example, and he is correct. As he said, before you start defining the definition of "marriage" you should learn a bit more history form all over the globe. Marriage has been many things over the centuries, and for many reasons. Marriage as an institution is a sham anyway. It only exists as a way of owning and dividing property. And most of them end up in divorce anyway. Now, I don't see you as bigoted, just Texan. ;) Seriously though,maybe you're religious. Who knows. But what we're saying is that your belief that gay marriage is wrong or bad is incorrect. Or rather, that acting on that belief and choosing to oppress people is wrong. You can believe anything you want. But your beliefs should stop at my front door. Or at my nose if I am in public. Believe what you want to believe, but keep them to yourself.

IMO even looking at this as an issue is a waste of time and thought energy. Some people want to get "married". So what? It has nothing to do with you or me or anyone but those people. Basically, MYOB and leave other people alone.
 
M

Mithrandir420

Well-Known Member
And think about this. If everyone here would mind their own business, we could all just sit around smoking a bowl. My tranny friend grows the bomb. :)

I also want to say that I don't take this thread personally or very seriously. I still hope Reef moves to so cal. so I can send him a rainbow flag as a house warming gift. ;) I don't think TWS is a fucked up person or anything like that. While I am expressing my opinion, I am not trying to insult any of you.
 
BustinScales510

BustinScales510

Well-Known Member
ReefBongwell said:
Once again you don't listen. This is an example. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Luckily for you I wouldn't really vote against gay marriage because of people like you. You just make me WANT to. But I expect you'll shrug it off. It'll just make it that much longer til gay people get their rights, but I don't expect you to realize people like you are an impediment to that.
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Listen to what? Youre acting weird. So its my fault if I tempt you to vote against gay people? Its my fault if gay rights take longer? The whole point is that its shitty to be able to vote on the rights of others. Enjoy your perch on that cloud where you get to dictate how youll deal with others, it wont last forever.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
ReefBongwell said:
PS - In case your 'reading compensation' has failed you again my argument isn't against gay marriage... it's against the way in which some people conduct the campaign for it... and I have a feeling if I wait long enough Uncle Buck will now prove my point ;)
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actually, no.

a perfunctory review of this thread has revealed that you really oppose homosexuality as a whole (including marriage equality) for many reasons: that's not what marriage is, nor ever has been "since the dawn of time", don't let my kids know that homosexuality exists, they're pursuing their rights in the wrong way, stop ramming it down my throat, you're making my kids gay, etc.

a quick re-read of this thread proves your words to be false. you have many more, deeper objections to marriage equality than the one you just listed.

i'm not stupid, and you're not the first "libertarian" i have talked to about this. libertarian is in quotes because just about no "libertarian" i've encountered truly was one. you are no exception.
 
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