potential yield for 12x12 w/ LED'S?

If you really wanted an LED setup for a 12x12, I would look into building yourself with the newish high power COB diodes like the Cree CXA 3070/3590 or the Bridgelux Vero 29 which are White LED's.

They are high powered with high efficiency. A semi practical knowledge of AC/DC and a lil time following along would catch up enough to build yourself.

Simpler than putting together an un-assembled HPS.

All that said, most of the cost is upfront and cooling in a 144 sq. ft space is probably going to take on some kind of on site treatment. An active intake and a couple of big exhaust fans won't be enough most likely....

But if you are a power/efficiency junky and pencil out all your cost of putting together your LED system and then adding up all costs for the HPS, bulb changes, extra heating and cooling, decreased electrical usage if higher efficiencys are used, etc......In the end LED systems are starting to come out ahead of HPS. We have seen some examples of LED's replacing HPS systems, not beating the tar out of them, but Replacing and only getting better too, efficiency/spectrum wise.

Generally, most of the well built systems use less wattage per PAR watt compared to HID and require less power in 99% of cases.

Realistically 5k is probably a starting point. But I think people going this route need to realize that this light system in theory could be run for 5+ years without much serious maintenance, even with newer improved LED's coming out. The system if built right could stay competitive for 5 years in light of technology, because people will still be using HPS in 5 years, even though, it already has seemingly "peaked" as a tech.

i would check out LED builds/grow from for a better evaluation if you are ever seriously contemplating the lead route.....
Greengenes 707
hyroot
SupraSPL
CaptainMorgan
Positivity
Bad Karma


Long term and a loaded with creative spirit: LED

Short term, might change out equipment over short term, proven : HID

No cmh love?

I don't think there would be anything wrong with hanging HPS bulbs along with LED, many do.

Some have also decided that the extra wattage isn't worth it either and transformed it to the LED rig.

This comes down to preference and available funds in the end. If u can't decide then do a lot of research. I use hid because that's how I was taught. I like the luminous intensity that creates density, less radiant heat from LEDs also creates density. Electricity usage don't really bother me so i have no hesitations in adding different hid bulbs to create a mixed spectrum. Hps for reds and oranges, mh for blues, and mv for ultra violet. I will never have as diverse a spectrum as an owner of some new led tech. But to be honest I don't mind, my lights do everything I ask of them.

justugh said:

your doing 4 1000w

here
http://www.solis-tek.com/digital-ballasts/matrix-1000-digital-ballast.html
get those ballast .........u will love how they work plus they are designed to work together .....in the end u can do 1000w 600w 400w this is a true dail a watt ballast

the next thing u need is 4 hood system
http://www.amazon.com/iPower-GLCLTB6XL-6-Inch-Reflector-26-Inch/dp/B00BDGHIBE
that is my fav hood the area it covers and the fact it is in a cool tube

after that it gets simpler u need air over the tubes to cool them .............4 is to many for just one fan it will shut off (140 degrees the motors turn off to save themself)
so u need 2 6 inch fans that would be a 800 cfms total or 880 cfms
so u will need 2 carbon filters
if this is a actual room not a tent then u can then about getting some real fans in there u know the 12 inch wall mounted ones that u tie into a stud

Click to expand...

Cooling lights with your extraction is wildly inefficient. First the airflow will be reduced considerably by the filter. Secondly the humid air being sucked through the lighting system can't be good for it. Thirdly you will be "attempting" to cool a light with hot air from ur grow room which will not help much as opposed to cooling it with cool air. And finally this method will stop you from being able to maintain an optimum temp/humidity whilst still removing the radiant heat from around the lamp.

I have seen this done on a smaller scale and tbh it will work to some extent. But the added yield from having proper independent cooling for the light will far outweigh what initial savings are made by doing it the wrong way.

hyroot said:

so far everything I've read about leds in this thread is complete bullshit. Obviously no one here has any experience.

yield.depends on genetics mostly. Then lighting. There are crappy leds out there. Then there are high quality leds that out perform hps.

area 51 led, apache tech inc, amare technologies, Inda gro, Hans (bonsai hero) , onyx (rapid led) and the #1 killer of all lights DIY Cree cxa cobs. anything else is crap.


go to the led section and read up.

Click to expand...

i got it and mine are better then those
http://www.ledzeal.com/p44.html

those other ones can not do half the stuff this one does and they still need to be plugged into a timer to control them ..........theses are the only daisy chainable ones i found and the fact that i can control the light waves one light fill all the HID bulbs including the finishing/UV light

Blue brother said:

Cooling lights with your extraction is wildly inefficient. First the airflow will be reduced considerably by the filter. Secondly the humid air being sucked through the lighting system can't be good for it. Thirdly you will be "attempting" to cool a light with hot air from ur grow room which will not help much as opposed to cooling it with cool air. And finally this method will stop you from being able to maintain an optimum temp/humidity whilst still removing the radiant heat from around the lamp.

I have seen this done on a smaller scale and the it will work to some extent. But the added yield from having proper independent cooling for the light will far outweigh what initial costs equipment or electricity usage

Click to expand...

humidity is going over them anyways if u do with it being winter my house is 30% in summer and AC in the house going i am looking 55 60%

the method u would use would increase the amount of air u are dumping outside
2 cooling lights and 1 extraction system

him in a 12x12 room he is going to need a 10 or 12 inch carbon filter ................so 800 cfms for the cool tubes plus 12 inch 1140...10 inch 760

do u see how much air he would be pulling into the house doing it the other way .........i am sorry 4 1000w the best u might do is 3 lights on 1 fan (1 in front of the fan 2 be hide ) but that is it if u try to put 2 in front and 2 be hide at some point the fan will shut off unless u can pass 40 degree air over it the whole time.....all the fans have built in thermal shut off 130 140 degrees that motor stops spinning

T

justugh said:

humidity is going over them anyways if u do with it being winter my house is 30% in summer and AC in the house going i am looking 55 60%

the method u would use would increase the amount of air u are dumping outside
2 cooling lights and 1 extraction system

him in a 12x12 room he is going to need a 10 or 12 inch carbon filter ................so 800 cfms for the cool tubes plus 12 inch 1140...10 inch 760

do u see how much air he would be pulling into the house doing it the other way .........i am sorry 4 1000w the best u might do is 3 lights on 1 fan (1 in front of the fan 2 be hide ) but that is it if u try to put 2 in front and 2 be hide at some point the fan will shut off unless u can pass 40 degree air over it the whole time.....all the fans have built in thermal shut off 130 140 degrees that motor stops spinning

Click to expand...

Fair enough bro, if you are limited to dumping a certain amount of air outside then your method would be better. But I don't think the op said that.

Yeah I totally agree that u want two runs with separate fans. With 8" cooltubes and high output fan pushing cool air through the light it may be possible but I would rather use 2 runs, the more bends in ductwork the less overall air flow aswell.

If Ur intake air is too humid then u need a dehumidifier, no amount of ventilation will ever change that.

Blue brother said:

T


Fair enough bro, if you are limited to dumping a certain amount of air outside then your method would be better. But I don't think the op said that.

Yeah I totally agree that u want two runs with separate fans. With 8" cooltubes and high output fan pushing cool air through the light it may be possible but I would rather use 2 runs, the more bends in ductwork the less overall air flow aswell.

If Ur intake air is too humid then u need a dehumidifier, no amount of ventilation will ever change that.

Click to expand...

my intake goes tho a filter box .........the part u forgot was the amount of air he would be pulling is going to change the static flow in the home .....800 cfms is bad enough but near 2000 cfms his heating bill will be off the charts

i am lucky i am in the basement of a 35 year old house .........my air drawl comes from a chimme crosses the room to the other side of the house and out tho the intakes for my 2 tents .........the room itself has been sealed off with polywrap and ir blocker .the door into the room is the only opening for the air to pass into and i added a 12 in box fan into the door

with the 2 carbon filters hooked to the 4 lights he can dump the air and clean it and remove the heat from the upper section with out causing to much of a draft in the home

As I've only ever drawn cooling air from outside or from outside via a single room I never thought to mention about the airflow through the house if he chose/needed to do it that way. justugh I stand corrected, that much airflow moving through the whole house is not good.
Would you agree that if he had direct access to fresh air and had no issues venting spent air, that it would be more efficient to cool the lights independently?
also it's the same amount of heat regardless of how much air you use to displace/remove it.
When using more (over less) airflow to cool a light then the heat is displaced quicker and any leo with heat seeking gadgetry would see less heat signal from the exhaust

im using four 600 watt leds with 5 watt diodes. The ac dont run much and i use a dehumidifier as well. I turned on co2 3 weeks into bloom on a 9 week flower. In 15 gallon pots using WEST COAST HORTICULTURE nutrients. I have 1 plant under each light , Im expecting a pound per light just like a 1000 watt hps with almost half the electricity.

Tamorin said:

im using four 600 watt leds with 5 watt diodes. The ac dont run much and i use a dehumidifier as well. I turned on co2 3 weeks into bloom on a 9 week flower. In 15 gallon pots using WEST COAST HORTICULTURE nutrients. I have 1 plant under each light , Im expecting a pound per light just like a 1000 watt hps with almost half the electricity.

Click to expand...

With a 1k watt hps a grower should be pulling more than 1 pound, should be closer to two or over (1000grams). A pound per 600 hps is ok, but again could be 600 grams or better.

Blue brother said:

As I've only ever drawn cooling air from outside or from outside via a single room I never thought to mention about the airflow through the house if he chose/needed to do it that way. justugh I stand corrected, that much airflow moving through the whole house is not good.
Would you agree that if he had direct access to fresh air and had no issues venting spent air, that it would be more efficient to cool the lights independently?
also it's the same amount of heat regardless of how much air you use to displace/remove it.
When using more (over less) airflow to cool a light then the heat is displaced quicker and any leo with heat seeking gadgetry would see less heat signal from the exhaust

Click to expand...

the direct air is going to be a problem

u talked about that if the air is too cold or wet and hits that glass boom goes the bulb ...........if he is in a place like Arizona where the air does not dip to low and almost no mositure would be good

as for the leos i know a few tricks to help hide the heat factor
the venting out can be tied into other spots .........if i moved my set up i can tie into the chimme and dump up that but it would change where i would get the air from .......he can also tie into the dryer venting ....even the sewer gas venting

but the best part with these portable ac/heater units he can still dump out the window using one of those for cover (but the window kit for it) and then keep the shades down (it will take more to get in the place then just seeing a vent) if u hide the smell and cover up the IR heat from the lights u are almost golden)

and if those ideas are not your liking ..........u tie the ducting for the exhaust into a old grill /old smoker the heat from the lights will make it look like cooling off ........or u can use slate to build a box .........slate will transfer the heat much faster then just air interchange


if he does vent in the house it is just matter of controlling it enough air to keep the plants happy and to keep area cool ....along with where it will come from .........the where will it come from is fun get your bong and make it smokey watch how the smoke moves ........2 day thing unless u invite ppl to help

mista sativa said:

whoa whoa easy bud... we are just having a friendly conversation here. No need for mudslinging, Just throw your two sense in. I asked because a lot of threads that are posted are old. I've heard of broad advances in the LED field... that's why I ask from ppl with experience. Also, I'm trying to determine cost difference between the two... I have heard tho that LED work better for SCrog or sog setups because of penetration. What would be the benefits of hanging small, intermittent hps bulbs in between the LED's for penetration and side branching? I've seen some of the commercial grows out in Colorado with a setup similar...

Click to expand...

I live in Colorado and the majority of commercial LED grows around here are laughable, they use the cheapest, oldest, and weakest LEDs that were old technology back in 2009. This one place uses Chinese UFO's with 1w chips in them and tries to hype up their bud cause it's LED grown, but it is HORRIBLE quality fluffy and low THC, my LEDs grow big huge frosty nugs and I also do a HPS grow. The LEDs are better if you can afford the investment period, there is no argument I have a 600w digital dimmable HPS and two of my 160w panels can get a larger yield than that 600w hps with the super hps spectral enhanced bulb. Go with area 51 lights or one of the companies that hyroot listed if you cannot do a DIY light. DIY COB LED's are WAY better than any HID light could hope to be, you would need a warehouse with the duel ended gavitas to even come close to DIY COB technology.

The story of LED: Don't mess around with companies that won't tout their diodes or equipment being used. I have to shout this from the rooftops...all the "good" companies want you to know, that they are using top bin of whatever Phillips, Osram, Cree, Bridgelux, Nichia, along with good internals and readily make this info available....99% of the Chinese Made lights have unknown specs and why the fuck anybody still wastes money on these things is beyond me. Cfls probably have better efficiency and that's saying something.....

Do you know what sort of LEDs you were going to use? Commercially available type or DIY? And what were your thoughts on quantity, spacing or wattage.

Why not think of it the other way around? How much do you want/need to yield per harvest and what do you need to do it?

Asking what can be done in a certain amount of space depends on too many variables. So i think it's better to ask my question instead.

For instance...i want to yield 4lbs per harvest. To do that i have set up 4 lights in a 6x7x7 grow space and i'm scrogging 4 plants total. I know i wont get 4lbs this 1st grow i this new space, but i will be close and i already know now what more i need to get to that 4lbs...

Or....i can say that given i did 1.5 lbs with a 1000w hid consistently in my old 5x5 space....an average grower should be able to get close to 9 lbs in a 12x12 space...

justugh said:

i got it and mine are better then those
http://www.ledzeal.com/p44.html

those other ones can not do half the stuff this one does and they still need to be plugged into a timer to control them ..........theses are the only daisy chainable ones i found and the fact that i can control the light waves one light fill all the HID bulbs including the finishing/UV light

Click to expand...

Maybe it's just me being blind, but I can't see what diodes are used in those Zeal panels. They do show all the other components used on their website, I just cannot find info about the diodes (not even the brand). Do you know the spec's? I'm window shopping at the moment and if these are truly better than A51, Onyx, Hans, Apache etc, I'd certainly consider them (who wouldn't?!), but if I can't see what diodes they use, I'm out. I think there's a lot to be said for transparency in a market where most companies claim their products are the best without ever disclosing what materials they use, while others out there are prepared to do so and stand by their spec's. I also can't find the price! How much do they cost?

So many variables and options. In this size room Id go with like an Undercurrent setup. use 8 600 watt lights make sure co2 is pumping. Id run Fox Farm nutes, plenty of fans moving air and unless your scrogging Id run 25 plant setup and aim for the 5-9 lb range....You have high ceilings?

Heavy Consumer said:

Maybe it's just me being blind, but I can't see what diodes are used in those Zeal panels. They do show all the other components used on their website, I just cannot find info about the diodes (not even the brand). Do you know the spec's? I'm window shopping at the moment and if these are truly better than A51, Onyx, Hans, Apache etc, I'd certainly consider them (who wouldn't?!), but if I can't see what diodes they use, I'm out. I think there's a lot to be said for transparency in a market where most companies claim their products are the best without ever disclosing what materials they use, while others out there are prepared to do so and stand by their spec's. I also can't find the price! How much do they cost?

Click to expand...

the site i linked is not like others ...........they are the markers of the lights not retail .......the prices are much lower then in the store here because of this they asked me not to post what i got it for so it does not hurt their biz as they are Whole salers

they will sell u 1 light or 1000 lights

to get your info and all that go here
http://www.ledzeal.com/p44.html

allow the scripts on the page as u scroll down u will see on the left side this little box with the name Alex and Kevin
email the guy name Kevin ........ask him any ?s u want to know about the light his job to answer...ask for price ....u can talk freely this is based in hongkong mainland (i back traced the IP addy and confirmed the details 100% safe to talk freely)

as for cost i will say this shipping customs 2 lights 2 controller all for under the cost of 1 900w sold here with 500/600 bucks left for beer or other gear