Plant Moisture Stress - Symptoms and Solutions

Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Mountainfarmer said:
Tio, Medium is a soiless mix. peat moss, perlite, lime, and wetting agent. At week three I recanned and mixed in some ocean forrest just to add a bit of juice. I also added some mycorrhizae, a endo/ecto blend. First feeding was done 2 days after repot. I fed with: .25 dose of 6/4/4 and a full dose of fulvic acid per gallon of well water. the 6/4/4 does contain trace elements. At week 4 I decided to go with a full organic fertilizer and fed a .50 dose of 5/2/5. I also added some super plant tonic to help below the soil line. This was applied at full strength. Week 5 was last night and I decided to go back with the 6/4/4 @ full strength and a .50 dose of bat guano, 10/2/1. It looked to me that they were needing Nitrogen so I increased dosage. How about the photo with the extreme downward cupping? This must surely be a sign of bad things to come. Also, for what it's worth I am on a 24/0 lighting schedule.
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With peat moss you don't need the fulvic acid, it's loaded. I don't put plants on a schedule, I read them. 1/4 of a 6-4-4 is almost nothing compared to 1/4 of a 30-10-10 if you're using say....a teaspoon per gallon. Even 1/4 tsp. of a 30-10-10 is very little. What's with the "super plant tonic"? What's that got?

Regarding the cupping, read the ditty again. I usually get that on indoor gardens and it's always heat related. One "aw shit" episode and the leaf will remain cupped forever. As long as it's green, it's still functional. It's when you get the necrotic dots that you need to worry. Unless corrected, they are nothing more than a signal to you of what can come - leaf drop.

Plants need a rest. Try 20/4. If that's not plenty of light, something else is missing.

Good luck,
UB
 
Mountainfarmer

Mountainfarmer

Well-Known Member
www.angelfire.com/ar2/tts/bmospt.htmlUB, thanks for you time and insight. I think I got it from here. So far I have been really cautious, but I am ready to take some chances. Some old wise women once said "if you never fall down then u will never know how to get up." As far as the "super plant tonic" I am surprised you never heard of the stuff. I will try and insert a link for info on it but if I am unable to you should google it. It's produced by a small Organic company. Its primary function is to promote root growth. check it out though I think it is right up your ally.
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Mountainfarmer said:
www.angelfire.com/ar2/tts/bmospt.htmlUB, thanks for you time and insight. I think I got it from here. So far I have been really cautious, but I am ready to take some chances. Some old wise women once said "if you never fall down then u will never know how to get up." As far as the "super plant tonic" I am surprised you never heard of the stuff. I will try and insert a link for info on it but if I am unable to you should google it. It's produced by a small Organic company. Its primary function is to promote root growth. check it out though I think it is right up your ally.
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I have pissed off money trying someone's "super plant tonic". In fact, some of this stuff did some of my plants harm, like fertilizer sold by Park Seed company with these outrageous claims. Stuff came from the Netherlands and when I opened up the bottle turned out to be 1/4 rocks or minerals that precipitated out of solution and the plants didn't like it either. So, the question is, is your product regulated by third party insuring it is what it claims to be? Also, what are the active ingredients?

Thanks
 
DaveCoulier

DaveCoulier

Well-Known Member
UB, Im hoping you can help me out here. This plant was doing perfectly fine up until about 7 days or so ago. Ive had this problem happen before with one of my other plants, and a shot of 6-4-4 at 1/4th strength cleared the problem right up(note: this was on a plant half this ones size).

I gave this plant in the pictures a 1/4th shot of the same NPK maybe 4-5 days ago, and the problem has only continued to work its way up the plant. Could its continued decline be attributed to under-feeding? My first instinct says its nitrogen deficiency, yet most pics I see of nitrogen def dont have necrotic spots like mine, so maybe its multiple deficiencies.

The plant is 30 days old.

Soil medium is 60% Promix-BX(Peat Moss)/25% Perlite/15% Vermiculite.

Run off 6.9

Ive got a second question about the ph of my soilless medium. For soil, the ph is typically between 6.5-6.8, while soilless mediums like hydro should be lower, but with peat moss Im sorta confused. Its not quite hydro, nor is it soil. Im not sure what range my ph should be.


Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. You're a god send to all us clueless newbies :)












 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Looks like the root system is shot. Check it out.

I see nothing wrong with a pH around 6.2, soil or soil-less.

Good luck,
UB
 
Sexxxy Beast

Sexxxy Beast

Active Member
I have a plant that has some watering problems. Here is my setup:

600w HPS hovering about 20in from the canopy of 8 Grand Daddy Purples, Using Lucas Formula nutes, first feed was at 500ppm, Second at 947ppm. Using drinking cups with holes in the bottom, filled until solution dripped out of holes.

(Photo 1) Plants leaves are curling, this photo was taken after I transplanted my clones to coco fiber and watered them with a 50% mix of "Lucas Formula" @ 500ppm/5.8ph.

Between photo 1 and photo 2 I asked the question if my plants were over watered, someone here seemed to think they were so as a test I removed 2 cubes from the coco and let them dry. Checked in 6 hours later and DISASTER, the 2 test plants leaves were completely limp. I immediately added water and checked in 1 hour later, this is when photo 2 was taken.

(photo 2) 1 hour after I watered them with tap water the 2 test plants recovered a good bit. I decided to feed them again, this time with 90% lucas formula or 947ppm, Instead of watering the coco fiber completely I only watered the cube until it was soaking. I indeed on checking in on them in an hour or so to see if the leaves start to untwist. In the mean time what do you all think happened?
 

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Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Sexxxy Beast said:
I have a plant that has some watering problems. Here is my setup:

600w HPS hovering about 20in from the canopy of 8 Grand Daddy Purples, Using Lucas Formula nutes, first feed was at 500ppm, Second at 947ppm. Using drinking cups with holes in the bottom, filled until solution dripped out of holes.

(Photo 1) Plants leaves are curling, this photo was taken after I transplanted my clones to coco fiber and watered them with a 50% mix of "Lucas Formula" @ 500ppm/5.8ph.

Between photo 1 and photo 2 I asked the question if my plants were over watered, someone here seemed to think they were so as a test I removed 2 cubes from the coco and let them dry. Checked in 6 hours later and DISASTER, the 2 test plants leaves were completely limp. I immediately added water and checked in 1 hour later, this is when photo 2 was taken.

(photo 2) 1 hour after I watered them with tap water the 2 test plants recovered a good bit. I decided to feed them again, this time with 90% lucas formula or 947ppm, Instead of watering the coco fiber completely I only watered the cube until it was soaking. I indeed on checking in on them in an hour or so to see if the leaves start to untwist. In the mean time what do you all think happened?
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When you water, do you do so until rapid runoff? I assume you took them out of the cups so the root system has direct contact with the coco fiber?

I don't do the "lucas formula". What is the NPK and micro values of that fertilizer? Looking at your plants, I doubt it they need such high PPM values. You have to match your plant food with the requirements of the plants, and don't push them! Let they find their own pace.

UB
 
Sexxxy Beast

Sexxxy Beast

Active Member
Uncle Ben said:
When you water, do you do so until rapid runoff? I assume you took them out of the cups so the root system has direct contact with the coco fiber?

I don't do the "lucas formula". What is the NPK and micro values of that fertilizer? Looking at your plants, I doubt it they need such high PPM values. You have to match your plant food with the requirements of the plants, and don't push them! Let they find their own pace.

UB
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http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm here is the lucas formula profile I am using.

N-P-K-Mg/84-67-187-50

Last night I decided to water one bank and leave the other bank untouched. I came back this morning to find that they both look about the same accept the bank I watered had some leaves curling upward with some of the older leaves having some brown and yellow spots on them. The new leaves on all the plants are curling downward still.

Maybe the ph is wrong because when I checked on my ph'd formula it was at 7 instead of the 5.8 I had when I mixed it. I wonder if the vinegar is not correcting the ph properly?
 
the church man

the church man

Well-Known Member
the church man said:
thanks tio! i just wanted to clarify some things....

this plant was topped three weeks ago. it has three nice sized colas on it and multiple smaller ones. a couple days ago i was tying down one of the main colas it snapped a couple nodes down from the top. so, after supporting it, i've noticed explosive growth on the two nodes below the break.

so one of the colas that i got from topping has been "semi topped". i'll take some pics and post them later on.

once again uncle ben, we all appreciate the enormous contributions that you've made here.

what i would give to sit down and converse with you over a bottle of wine, blunts and a good board game:bigjoint:
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que tal tio?

i just wanted to update everyone on the situation. after the stem partially broke it was splinted and left to get better. the two nodes directly beneath the break exploded into growth as if that stem had been topped. the area above the break didn't even flinch and kept on growing. actually, this broken top was my first to show pistils, and is my biggest top.

so.... all is well and looking better than before i clumsily snapped the stem.
 
Sexxxy Beast

Sexxxy Beast

Active Member
Day 3

As stated this morning I watered the plants on the left bank last night and they appear to have gotten a little worst.

Here are the photos....

As you can see the plant in the photo has developed some grey/brown and yellow spots on the old leaf. The top of the plant with the new leaf is still curled.
 

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the church man

the church man

Well-Known Member
uh...

sexxybeast... the information that you posted is wrong. the link that you posted says that the "lucas formula" N-P-K-Mg is 122-99-171-68 . The values that you posted (N-P-K-Mg/84-67-187-50) are from Mel Frank's Insider's Guide, not the lucas formula.

I just wanted to clear that up. And just to help you out with the nutrient regimen that you are using, Lucas recommends something like either feeding around 30% of full strength or feeding full strength every third feeding.

you said that you feed at 500 ppm and then at 947ppm. i agree with uncle ben that this is too high. following lucas you should have watered at around 300-350 ppm both times. your plants look too small for a near full feeding of 947ppm. by the way, are you using a meter @.5 conversion?

it seems that you've been feeding too strongly. then you allowed your medium to dry out.

uncle ben,

i believe that the question that sexxxy beast is trying to ask is " " " how strong and how often should i be feeding an NPK of 122-99-171-68 in a soil-less medium? and if i overfeed how can i fix it? " " "
 
Sexxxy Beast

Sexxxy Beast

Active Member
the church man said:
uh...

sexxybeast... the information that you posted is wrong. the link that you posted says that the "lucas formula" N-P-K-Mg is 122-99-171-68 . The values that you posted (N-P-K-Mg/84-67-187-50) are from Mel Frank's Insider's Guide, not the lucas formula.

I just wanted to clear that up. And just to help you out with the nutrient regimen that you are using, Lucas recommends something like either feeding around 30% of full strength or feeding full strength every third feeding.

you said that you feed at 500 ppm and then at 947ppm. i agree with uncle ben that this is too high. following lucas you should have watered at around 300-350 ppm both times. your plants look too small for a near full feeding of 947ppm. by the way, are you using a meter @.5 conversion?

it seems that you've been feeding too strongly. then you allowed your medium to dry out.

uncle ben,

i believe that the question that sexxxy beast is trying to ask is " " " how strong and how often should i be feeding an NPK of 122-99-171-68 in a soil-less medium? and if i overfeed how can i fix it? " " "
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Well now that I realize I over fed them, I do want to change that, I read that i can flush them out with nutrient less water. BUT i am worried that if i flush them, they will get even more water stress. Should I or shouldnt I?

Here is a couple snaps the bank of plants (first row of plants) that I watered again with nutrient solution.

The hardest part of this whole thing is trying to help them only makes it worst. Its hard to just let them do their thing. I have alot invested in this, like $600 in this grow room, plants, license etc.
 

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Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
the church man said:
uh...

sexxybeast... the information that you posted is wrong. the link that you posted says that the "lucas formula" N-P-K-Mg is 122-99-171-68 . The values that you posted (N-P-K-Mg/84-67-187-50) are from Mel Frank's Insider's Guide, not the lucas formula.
Click to expand...
I don't remember Mel using such terms. He uses normal, lay person terms like 10-15-10.

Glad things worked out church man.

If you want my help, you need to please answer my questions, post 548 sexxybeast.

I just wanted to clear that up. And just to help you out with the nutrient regimen that you are using, Lucas recommends something like either feeding around 30% of full strength or feeding full strength every third feeding.
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And herein lies the problem with Lucas aka "newbie" and his "formulas". Plants are dynamic, they have different requirements depending on their size, vigor, genes, outside influences, etc. For Lucas to recommend any kind of black/white feeding schedule reflects his lack of knowledge of plant dynamics and botany. You don't read Lucas, you learn to read your plants.

Having said that, I might be able to help if someone can translate the exact NPK values AND micros that the plants are receiving. They look like they are under salts stress, see my sig link.

Good luck,
UB
 
the church man

the church man

Well-Known Member
these elemental values were obtained from the bottom of that link that sexxxy beast posted. i don't know how accurate they are.




The purple values are for 8mL of Micro per one gallon U.S

The red values are for 16mL of Bloom per one US gallon
Element (symbol)
Guaranteed Analysis
ppm

Nitrogen (N) as Nitrate (NO3) 122ppm

Nitrogen (N) as Ammonium (NH4) 8ppm


Nitrogen (N) as Urea (NH2)


Nitrogen Total (N) 130ppm

Phosphorus (P) as P2O5 106ppm

Potassium (K) as K2O 22ppm 161ppm

Magnesium (Mg) 73ppm

Sulfur (S) 49ppm

Calcium (Ca) 130ppm

Iron (Fe) 2.5932ppm

Boron (B)

Manganese (Mn) 1.2966ppm

Zinc (Zn)

Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0207ppm

Sodium (Na)

Copper (Cu)

Chlorine Cl

Cobalt Co 0.013ppm

Silicon (Si)

Selenium (Se)




Uncle Ben,

What is a good, base nutrient profile to feed? i understand that there are many variables that change throughout the life cycle, but if you could give me a balanced profile that worked for as many different stages of growth what would it be?

i'm still learning about these NPK values and i want to get them right


muchisimos gracias tio
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
the church man said:
these elemental values were obtained from the bottom of that link that sexxxy beast posted. i don't know how accurate they are.
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Thanks, and it's just what I expected to find and the reason why I don't respect the "Lucas formula" and his recommendations that so many blindly follow. Notice it isn't complete and there's too much K relative to N? There's problems with it like very little iron, no zinc...... Unless I'm missing something, it looks like it can't promote chlorophyll production and maintenance.

I'm gonna give you a couple of links and let you do your own homework.

First, I'm not pushing Dyna-Gro necessarily, but notice in their specs sheets they contain 16 elements? They are complete. Do a google search on nutrient elements.

http://www.dyna-gro.com/

More.....
http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm

A 9-3-6 and a 3-9-6 is all you need. Grow for the most amount of foliage (and roots) up to harvest. Don't focus on bud production which is based on plant health and lots of leaves.

Good luck,
UB
 
Vnice

Vnice

Member
Hey Uncle Ben & crew =)

-10.21 Germed paper towel
-10.23 dropped in rockwool.
-10.26 all 18 sprouted took away the dome and begin lighting
-11.13 the 11 remaining sproutlings were moved as op safety compromised, growth had noticeably slowed already tho.

-Bagseed, 8 yr old seeds, stored in dark n airtight but not froze
-op was not at my home, I spent an hour a day with the babies, possible low humidity from lack of misting and a couple hours of 90 temp before corrected.
-rockwool is directly placed into happy frog (old) mixed with some extra perlite

Since the move, and for the days before, growth on these babies has been stunted. Growth has seemed to resumed since but is slowed and the three healthiest are droopy...007.jpg019.jpg022.jpg024.jpg027.jpg

Possible culprits:
-overwatering (my first consideration, to try to rectify, I did not water from before 11.13 until 11.17)
-old seeds
-root bound
-humidity too low (removed the cover once they had popped open, previous caretaker did not regularly mist)

Thoughts?

Much appreciated,
~V~
 

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DaveCoulier

DaveCoulier

Well-Known Member
UB is gonna have your balls in a vice for using paper towel germination. I dont understand why you pre-germed, placed in rockwool, then placed into soil. If you had planted the seeds directly into the soil to begin with(no pre-germ) you'd see seeds popping the surface in 3-4 days. Not sure how much longer it'd take with 8 year old seeds. I doubt humidity is your problem. My seedlings are under 400w MH as soon as they break the surface. I dont mist them, nor do I use humidity domes, and they're growing just fine. Im not sure what UB's stance is on humidity domes are for seedlings, but Id say their not at all necessary.

I think you can also scratch off rootbound from your list. Not really sure what is the cause of their stunting, but hopefully UB can help you out.
 
Vnice

Vnice

Member
:shock: ow. my boys just leapt at the thought ;P Well, rockwool seemed to be highly recommended and my biz partner decided to get some. I have used towel before, and just tweezer em in taproot down for a headstart... I defintely could agree that it's overkill in steps. Cutting out either or both might have helped. The age of the seeds is prolly attributing to a big % of the failing, unfortunately, since I was hoping to iron out process before dropping something more srs than bagseed and now I'm second guessing everything >.< preciate the input!
~V~
 
R

razoredge

Well-Known Member
I just want to say thanks to all that have added to this thread. I am a life long learner and this site has helped me out so much with small problems that i have never addressed before,
 
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