Paul Ryan is a Succesful and important Politician

bedspirit · Aug 17, 2012

beenthere said:
Well, in my opinion, to claim we would go broke if entitlements were cut to zero and defense spending continued, is totally ridiculous.

But I do agree with you on building and retaining the worlds strongest military for defense only.
We definitely need to stop being the worlds pro bono police.

we would still go broke, but possibly at a slower rate (see my graph), but that's only assuming that you keep taxes at the current rates. If you were to cut them the way the Ryan Plan does, you're going broke at about the same rate.

OLD DUDE · Aug 17, 2012

beenthere said:
I sure hope they do win, I sure as hell don't want to triple mine to pay for your healthcare bro!

What part of "So I can pay for my health care in my later years" didn't you understand?? Notice the "I" in my statement! I have never received one penny of government assistance in my life!! I just want to be able to afford it myself!

bedspirit · Aug 17, 2012

canndo said:
Hang on there, I don't see interest in your chart.

The interest is split on that chart. You have interest on what you've borrowed on the military and interest in what you've borrowed for everything else. Here's the breakdown:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Gill Sans MT, GillSans]Current Military
$965 billion:[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Gill Sans MT, GillSans]
• Military Personnel $129 billion
• Operation & Maint. $241 billion
• Procurement $143 billion
• Research & Dev. $79 billion
• Construction $15 billion
• Family Housing $3 billion
• DoD misc. $4 billion
• Retired Pay $70 billion
• DoE nuclear weapons $17 billion
• NASA (50%) $9 billion
• International Security $9 billion
• Homeland Secur. (military) $35 billion
• State Dept. (partial) $6 billion
• other military (non-DoD) $5 billion
• “Global War on Terror” $200 billion [We added $162 billion to the last item to supplement the Budget’s grossly underestimated $38 billion in “allowances” to be spent in 2009 for the “War on Terror,” which includes the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Gill Sans MT, GillSans]Past Military,
$484 billion:
• Veterans’ Benefits $94 billion
• Interest on national debt (80%) created by military spending, $390 billion[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Gill Sans MT, GillSans]Human Resources
$789 billion:
• Health/Human Services
• Soc. Sec. Administration
• Education Dept.
• Food/Nutrition programs
• Housing & Urban Dev.
• Labor Dept.
• other human resources.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Gill Sans MT, GillSans]General Government
$304 billion:
• Interest on debt (20%)
• Treasury
• Government personnel
• Justice Dept.
• State Dept.
• Homeland Security (15%)
• International Affairs
• NASA (50%)
• Judicial
• Legislative
• other general govt.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Gill Sans MT, GillSans]Physical Resources
$117 billion:
• Agriculture
• Interior
• Transportation
• Homeland Security (15%)
• HUD
• Commerce
• Energy (non-military)
• Environmental Protection
• Nat. Science Fdtn.
• Army Corps Engineers
• Fed. Comm. Commission
• other physical resources[/FONT]

canndo · Aug 17, 2012

bedspirit said:
The interest is split on that chart. You have interest on what you've borrowed on the military and interest in what you've borrowed for everything else. Here's the breakdown:

Current Military
$965 billion:
• Military Personnel $129 billion
• Operation & Maint. $241 billion
• Procurement $143 billion
• Research & Dev. $79 billion
• Construction $15 billion
• Family Housing $3 billion
• DoD misc. $4 billion
• Retired Pay $70 billion
• DoE nuclear weapons $17 billion
• NASA (50%) $9 billion
• International Security $9 billion
• Homeland Secur. (military) $35 billion
• State Dept. (partial) $6 billion
• other military (non-DoD) $5 billion
• “Global War on Terror” $200 billion [We added $162 billion to the last item to supplement the Budget’s grossly underestimated $38 billion in “allowances” to be spent in 2009 for the “War on Terror,” which includes the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan]
Past Military,
$484 billion:
• Veterans’ Benefits $94 billion
• Interest on national debt (80%) created by military spending, $390 billion
Human Resources
$789 billion:
• Health/Human Services
• Soc. Sec. Administration
• Education Dept.
• Food/Nutrition programs
• Housing & Urban Dev.
• Labor Dept.
• other human resources.
General Government
$304 billion:
• Interest on debt (20%)
• Treasury
• Government personnel
• Justice Dept.
• State Dept.
• Homeland Security (15%)
• International Affairs
• NASA (50%)
• Judicial
• Legislative
• other general govt.
Physical Resources
$117 billion:
• Agriculture
• Interior
• Transportation
• Homeland Security (15%)
• HUD
• Commerce
• Energy (non-military)
• Environmental Protection
• Nat. Science Fdtn.
• Army Corps Engineers
• Fed. Comm. Commission
• other physical resources

Ok, but what about the actual "entitlement" programs - I'm a little dingy this morning but I see only food and nutrition programs - is Welfare under "other human resources"?

I am very curious about this because I have very often seen Beenthere's chart and it never made sense to me. I'd like to use this one as you have in rebuttal to the stark chart that is usually posted for its shock effect and not for its accuracy. But I have to understand it in order to use it.

bedspirit · Aug 17, 2012

canndo said:
Ok, but what about the actual "entitlement" programs - I'm a little dingy this morning but I see only food and nutrition programs - is Welfare under "other human resources"?

I am very curious about this because I have very often seen Beenthere's chart and it never made sense to me. I'd like to use this one as you have in rebuttal to the stark chart that is usually posted for its shock effect and not for its accuracy. But I have to understand it in order to use it.

Most Welfare programs are run by and funded by the states. The amount that the federal gov't chips in would be under Human Resources. I'm looking for Medicare and I don't see it identified as such on the graph. With human resources at 789 billion it must be in there. When looking for this, I just searched for a budget that didn't include SS and I got this site: http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm it's an old antiwar site, so these numbers are from the 2009 budget. The other controversial part would be how they split the interest on defense and non defense. They admit that their breakdown of 80-20 would differ from other estimates of 60-40. For the purposes of this thread, that difference is small potatoes.

Update:

I think the reason that medicare is not identified on this chart is because it's funding comes from so many different places. Some of it comes from monthly payments of recipients, some comes through pay roll tax, some come from hospital insurance tax, and some comes from a trust fund. This chart would only represents the parts paid for through a tax.

canndo · Aug 17, 2012

bedspirit said:
Most Welfare programs are run by and funded by the states. The amount that the federal gov't chips in would be under Human Resources. I'm looking for Medicare and I don't see it identified as such on the graph. With human resources at 789 billion it must be in there. When looking for this, I just searched for a budget that didn't include SS and I got this site: http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm it's an old antiwar site, so these numbers are from the 2009 budget. The other controversial part would be how they split the interest on defense and non defense. They admit that their breakdown of 80-20 would differ from other estimates of 60-40. For the purposes of this thread, that difference is small potatoes.

Update:

I think the reason that medicare is not identified on this chart is because it's funding comes from so many different places. Some of it comes from monthly payments of recipients, some comes through pay roll tax, some come from hospital insurance tax, and some comes from a trust fund. This chart would only represents the parts paid for through a tax.

Bed, thanks for your attention to my questions. It is frustrating that we can't simply see real numbers, that makes arguments ever more nebulous. this however is a graph that is far more powerful than my "we pay for order" argument.

In short, "entitlements" are not the money monster that is so often represented.

UncleBuck · Aug 17, 2012

is beenthere a jackfate sock puppet that we missed, or is he really that much of a douche?

canndo · Aug 17, 2012

UncleBuck said:
is beenthere a jackfate sock puppet that we missed, or is he really that much of a douche?

Beenthere is a reasonable man with an unreasonable burden,the burden of defending his ideology in the face of overwhelming evidence of its wrongheadedness.

cannabineer · Aug 17, 2012

At least in keeping with his creed ... it is a voluntary burden. cn

UncleBuck · Aug 17, 2012

beenthere said:
I sure hope they do win, I sure as hell don't want to triple mine to pay for your healthcare bro!

londonfog · Aug 17, 2012

UncleBuck said:
is beenthere a jackfate sock puppet that we missed, or is he really that much of a douche?

At times I think the same, just not sure as to whom.
side note:
I sure wish I could claim my signature space from the fools who lost my GOP candidate bet.. :sad:

Maybe some will make good on the 2012 POTUS wager or maybe we will see another flux of puppetry...

londonfog · Aug 17, 2012

So I guess Paul Ryan was against the stimulus whilst writing letters asking for some stimulus. :shock:

Dude you can't make this shit up.

beenthere · Aug 17, 2012

canndo said:
However, i don't believe that there is any such thing as a strong defense without having a powerful capability for offense.

LMAO Perhaps that's where the saying "The best defense is a good offense" came from!

Hey, I know it worked well under Ronald Reagan.

canndo · Aug 17, 2012

beenthere said:
LMAO Perhaps that's where the saying "The best defense is a good offense" came from!

Hey, I know it worked well under Ronald Reagan.

You just can't keep that rightist attitude in the closet can you Beenthere?

ink the world · Aug 17, 2012

beenthere said:
Are you an Unclebuck groupie? LOL

Lol nah. I just grow for a living, been growing for around 2 decades.

I remember seeing the pic of your plant, if you need some advice on growing I'll be more than happy to help you out. Like Buck said, my first advice would be to not starve your ladies

beenthere · Aug 17, 2012

ink the world said:
Lol nah. I just grow for a living, been growing for around 2 decades.

I remember seeing the pic of your plant, if you need some advice on growing I'll be more than happy to help you out. Like Buck said, my first advice would be to not starve your ladies

LMAO Appreciate that bro, I may take you up on it!
BTW, what strains were you growing 20yrs ago?

ChesusRice · Aug 17, 2012

beenthere said:
LMAO Appreciate that bro, I may take you up on it!
BTW, what strains were you growing 20yrs ago?

Most likely ones that survived and produced

not something you would know about

ink the world · Aug 17, 2012

beenthere said:
LMAO Appreciate that bro, I may take you up on it!
BTW, what strains were you growing 20yrs ago?

For the most part it's pretty much like Cheesus said. We would all collect seeds from good pot, which wasn't that plentiful back then.

The main strains my partner and I ran were Skunk & Blueberry. We got a BB QP and found like 10 seeds. Grew em all and saved the best 2 for mothers. Seedbanks weren't like they are now.

canndo · Aug 17, 2012

londonfog said:
So I guess Paul Ryan was against the stimulus whilst writing letters asking for some stimulus.

Dude you can't make this shit up.

It wasn't him, it was his staff. these are the same folk who believe in personal responsibility and that Obama can't keep blaming Bush. His Staff wrote the three letters, his staff claimed that 6500 jobs would be created or preserved by the stimulus money, if only the fed will send it. It wasn't him, it was his staff that wrote AND signed the letters.

beenthere · Aug 17, 2012

ink the world said:
For the most part it's pretty much like Cheesus said. We would all collect seeds from good pot, which wasn't that plentiful back then.

The main strains my partner and I ran were Skunk & Blueberry. We got a BB QP and found like 10 seeds. Grew em all and saved the best 2 for mothers. Seedbanks weren't like they are now.

That's pretty cool you were growing blueberry back east 20 years ago. Hell, when I started there were no seedbanks, a few years later Dutch Passion came along and was buying seeds from Northern California growers, like Skunk and Blueberry!

Paul Ryan is a Succesful and important Politician

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