NEW NFT (nutrient film technique) SOG SETUP

fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
I cheat I have a propane fired electric start generator at my home and at the few in towns rooms. The remotes are all powered by Lister diesel generators. I have only had one go down in over 20 years. They get shut down briefly for oil changes and even less often for valve adjustments, otherwise they just clatter along. There is at least on person living at every site and smaller generators to cover maintenance periods and short outages. There are at least 4 or 5 short 10 to 30 minute outages every winter here. Dozens of hick ups just long enough to shut every thing down. I have sure start timers on the lights though so that is no problem. They just wait ten minutes after a power outage then restart. The timers are all Omrons timers so they reset them selves from internal memory and batteries. Plus there are safeties built in such as flow valves on the pumps and water cooled light circulation pumps. Even the air conditioning is tied in. Basically if there is anything that does not restart and run then the lights do not come back on. The plants can put up with a lot of other problems as long as their not being hit with intense lighting.
 
streetlegal

streetlegal

Well-Known Member
sherriberry said:
good info fatman.

I can see the john guess is the better way to go, however, i had to go ahead and order some, and i got the threaded ones.

they arent expensive, and i alreayd have the pvc pipe, which is also not expensive...

so worse case scenario i cement them into the pvc... ill let you know how it goes.

what im doing just to get me by for a while is building an air tight room that is about 6ft x 8ft, and TRY to contain smell.

im going to have an exhaust fan at the top go through a carbon filter, and an inlet fan down low (and actually have a weak carbon filter on the way in to keep out bugs, etc)

but heres the cool part...

im going to cut the square holes in the side of the room walls (panda wrap that is jsut framed up with some 2x3's)

the tips of the fence posts will come OUTSIDE the room, and there will be an air tight seal (waterproof tape) around the edge of the post to the panda wrap, and my res will be OUTSIDE the room.

this will allow me to go higher on the temps in the room, higher on the co2, and the fense posts will only have access to cooler outside room, higher oxygen air.

plus i wont have to enter exit my smell proof room (whihc defeats the purpose in the first place) when i need to change or add res fluid (...every day i add a pitcher :)

so to keep the sprayers and the plumbing WITHIN the fence post, i see it the simplest and most cost effective right now just to have a 1/2 pvc and screw them directly into that, and position it in the top corner of the post all the way down the length, and tilt the sprayers down at a 45 deg angle from the corner of the post.

i know it wont be optimal root space, however, if a person was doing sog, the plants CANT get that big anyway, so limited root space becomes a mute point.

I will still be using your big kwikiwiwki pump :) Ordered one today.

thanks bro for all the tips
Click to expand...
Looking good Sheriberry, almost ready for lift off:hump:

Repvip: I wanted my rez's out of the grow room cos of temp issues but wasnt really possible in my situation. good info on that follow on effect u get with dehumidi and then air-con.

My original plan for my new set-up was to build SOG's daisy chained res chiller- only 1 chiller is needed for all rez's, hose is ran from a bucket of chilled water which is joined to a aluminium cannister in each res (boost bottle from Moose Racing) then daisy chained to the next res etc cool water is recirculated thru the hoses

ALOT of good info in this thread, GL to anyone else trying to make sense of it tho :mrgreen:
 
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sherriberry

New Member
honestly, this grow, and this bloom room is temporary... i just need something asap because my seeds are now all over a foot tall, working their way higher!

ill probably have to top them once i figure out if they are male or female.

anyway...

the c02 wont be in this bloom room probably...

eventually, i will do the same idea, with the 100 inch posts, and compensate for the root limitations by limiting the plants spaces, and acheive a equalibrium, for a good sog setup... but not necessarilly hardcore lollipopped plants, but not big thick bushes either...

anyway... the next room will have a protable AC inside it...

and no exhaust fan :)... at least not one that runs constantly.

plants dont need fresh air... they just need co2... so the room will be air tight, and have a co2 setup.

all tanks and controllers will of course be outside the room, and all the fence posts will stick out the wall of the room.

I like the small fence posts for now, the 100s cut in half to 50.

now lets talk nutes

fatman, where you at
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Do you want to mix your own or just buy nutes. Mixing realy is easy. You would spend about $323 initially to get the best costs for mixing. That price would be cut by about 1/3 if you bought the three 50 pound bag ingrediants from a farm supply store (fertilizer and feed store). That would give you fertilizers make at OVER 35 gallons of x100 concentrates with lots of left overs.

Lucas Method mix

ppm
Nitrogen 167
Phosphorus 333
Potassium 397
Magnesium 100
Calcium 215
Sulfur 133
Iron 3.33
Manganese 1.67
Boron 1.67
Zinc 1.00
Copper .33
Molybdenum .03


Ounces in mix

Part A
Calcium Nitrate 498.1
Iron Chelate 15.75

Part B
MonoPotassium Phosphate 735.1
Magnesium Sulfate 472.6
Manganese Sulfate 3.138
Boric Acid / Solubor 4.288
Zinc Sulfate 2.040
Copper Sulfate .685
Ammonium Molybdate .026

Volume of Stock Solutions 35 gallons

17.5 gallons Part A, 17.5 gallons Part B

Dilution Rate 100 to 1

Costs are as if buying ingrediants from Crop King, an online green house supply store. Not the cheapest source but it gives you a fair Idea what is a looking price for ingrediants. It would take nearly all the 50 pound bag of Mono Pottasium sulfate for 35 gallons of cocentarate, ie 735 ounces of 800 ounces. However it would leave enough Mag sulfate for nearly 30 gallons more anfd enough calcium nitrate for 25 or 30 gallons more. The other trace elements are mostly one pound except the irion at 5 pounds. This shows even from a high dollar retailer the costs are less than 10 dollars per gallon.

That is for a x100 concentrate, so 3500 gallons of nutrient diluted to an EC of 2.72, with a TDS of 1904 and a pH of 5.4

Can't but it from GH or AN for 10 dollars per gallon.
 
streetlegal

streetlegal

Well-Known Member
So i was wondering if its worth up-grading to high psi pump + misters if ur still only going to be using 4 inch channels, not grow chambers .. Is it worth the outlay$ if ur still going to be using channels
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
While the use of a medium pressure pump and medium pressure sprayers set up to spray intermittantly would be a great improvement over the low pressure pump and misters or the low pressure high volume pump spraying water from a pipe drilled holes, that is not the case with high pressure or air atomized. The point behind the air misting or high pressure spraying is that they produce a cloud of mist/fog filling a large chamber. With small channels or tubes the vapor would just immediattely hit the near by walls and roots turning into running water instead of a mist/fog that would have lingers for a minute or so. It would just be a geat deal of extra money spent with no real gain. High pressure or air atomized spray is only beneficial economically in larger more open areas lke large chambers.

This could possibly be worked around with air atomized systems as you can get the nozzles with very small flow outputs, but the cost would be very high as they would have to be used about every two foot of tube length. However, the small nozzles and the larger nozzles cost the same. Two small nozzles would be good for four plants 6 inches or more apart so one nozzle for two SOG plants. Typically Two larger nozzles are used in a 9 square foot chamber ( meter squared) with 32 plants in SOG. ie one nozzle per 16 plants. Each nozzle plus its adapter cost abot $40. The n medium pressure nox zzles cost $0.79 each.

Air atomized nozzles spray in a cone rather than the big wide circlular pattern of the misters. High pressure sprayers are some where in between the mister circle and and the cone spray pattern. The economics is just not good with air atomizers in tubes. There are no high pressure misters small enough in flow to make high pressure really work well or economical except in chambers or really large tubes (say 12" or preferably 18').

There are also more issues with nutrients with the minimal water sprayed with the chamber high pressure or air atomiz zed systems. The EC must be much lower (0.25 to 0.65) and the concentration of trace nutrients must be at a lower percentage than the percentage (strength) used with more water as in low and medium pressure.

It is easy to provide toxic levels of trace nutrient when using very little water and nearly all the water is taken in by the plants. With most high pressure and air atomized systems the goal is to shoot for no waste nutrient water. Meaning all water sprayed is used by the plants with none returning to the reservoir to be reused. Seldom is that state of precision ever fully achieved as plants uptake is always changing due to growth so extra is sprayed, but it can be gauged well enough that draining the small amount of excess to waste can still be economical. This lack of reuse is nice as it eliminates all the frequent pH and EC adjustments plus your always assured the EC is based upon proper fertilizer ratios not unknown levels due to all nutrients not being used at the same rates. As long as you control replacement to the main nutrient reservoir supplying nutrients to the small reservoirs feeding the high pressure pump or the atomizer nozzles it nearly eliminates any need to check the EC and pH other than when when you initially mix the nutrients.
 
streetlegal

streetlegal

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
While the use of a medium pressure pump and medium pressure sprayers set up to spray intermittantly would be a great improvement over the low pressure pump and misters or the low pressure high volume pump spraying water from a pipe drilled holes, that is not the case with high pressure or air atomized. The point behind the air misting or high pressure spraying is that they produce a cloud of mist/fog filling a large chamber. With small channels or tubes the vapor would just immediattely hit the near by walls and roots turning into running water instead of a mist/fog that would have lingers for a minute or so. It would just be a geat deal of extra money spent with no real gain. High pressure or air atomized spray is only beneficial economically in larger more open areas lke large chambers.

This could possibly be worked around with air atomized systems as you can get the nozzles with very small flow outputs, but the cost would be very high as they would have to be used about every two foot of tube length. However, the small nozzles and the larger nozzles cost the same. Two small nozzles would be good for four plants 6 inches or more apart so one nozzle for two SOG plants. Typically Two larger nozzles are used in a 9 square foot chamber ( meter squared) with 32 plants in SOG. ie one nozzle per 16 plants. Each nozzle plus its adapter cost abot $40. The n medium pressure nox zzles cost $0.79 each.

Air atomized nozzles spray in a cone rather than the big wide circlular pattern of the misters. High pressure sprayers are some where in between the mister circle and and the cone spray pattern. The economics is just not good with air atomizers in tubes. There are no high pressure misters small enough in flow to make high pressure really work well or economical except in chambers or really large tubes (say 12" or preferably 18').

There are also more issues with nutrients with the minimal water sprayed with the chamber high pressure or air atomiz zed systems. The EC must be much lower (0.25 to 0.65) and the concentration of trace nutrients must be at a lower percentage than the percentage (strength) used with more water as in low and medium pressure.

It is easy to provide toxic levels of trace nutrient when using very little water and nearly all the water is taken in by the plants. With most high pressure and air atomized systems the goal is to shoot for no waste nutrient water. Meaning all water sprayed is used by the plants with none returning to the reservoir to be reused. Seldom is that state of precision ever fully achieved as plants uptake is always changing due to growth so extra is sprayed, but it can be gauged well enough that draining the small amount of excess to waste can still be economical. This lack of reuse is nice as it eliminates all the frequent pH and EC adjustments plus your always assured the EC is based upon proper fertilizer ratios not unknown levels due to all nutrients not being used at the same rates. As long as you control replacement to the main nutrient reservoir supplying nutrients to the small reservoirs feeding the high pressure pump or the atomizer nozzles it nearly eliminates any need to check the EC and pH other than when when you initially mix the nutrients.
Click to expand...
What can i say?! Great info Fatman:hump: :hump::hump::hump:
Interesting read about nute delivery in the last paragraph.. Ima have to go back through the thread and re-read ur posts..
Heres some reading if anyones interested http://www.hydroponics.com.au/php/viewtopic.php?t=8
Its old but interesting
 
repvip

repvip

Well-Known Member
I've been running one unit on constant NFT for over 2 weeks now and am really impressed with the results. It is beating my intermittent NFT in growth. Remember, I still think sprayers will be best--that is the next experiement..

Here's a root shot of the continuous NFT after 2 weeks. These plants are lighter green than my others, not sure why, but they also have the tightest internodes. Plants under the HPS are 2 weeks further along using intermittent NFT...

oh yeah, the root shot has a thin black piece of fabric on the bottom of the post. I use liquid karma which does make the roots look brown...
 

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sherriberry

New Member
k, so im not going to mix up my own nutes, i dont have time for that level of precision yet.

im using AN, and currently just using Boom and Micro in the lucas style format of 1:1 for veg, and about to go into bloom under a 1000w hps using the sprayers and fence posts as described earlier.

So as far as AN goes, what is a good bloom mix to use?

anyway, i was at lowes today, and saw a bunch of sump pumps, etc.

they werent that much money, many many under 100 bucks and up to 1hp.

anyway... just wondered what the difference is in the pump you recommended from ebay and those.

i bought your pump, so its all good, but i was just curious. I would think a sump pump could do high pressure as it has to pump water UP a high elevated hose, no?
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Personally I believe 1 Part Micro and 1 Part grow is fine through out the grow if the nutrients are changed regularly. Lucas hoever recomends 1 Part Micro and 2 Parts Bloom.

The difference in the pump types is that nearly all pumps unless they are designed to use with an accumalator tank (as in a water well system) are flow biased pumps. This means they are designed chiefly with the intent of passing large volumes of water versus pumping at high pressures aginst high resistance. Also unless your getting a chemical or aquarium rated pump you are usually look at a pump with steel innner workings. Impeller shaft, bearings etc., they have a very short life span used woith fertilizer soultions.

Iwaki: http://www.iwakiwalchem.com/products/wmd.htm The standard aquarium, fountain, sump pumps pump water at a maximium of usually about 3 to 5 psi and pump to a maximum of about 4 to 10 feet height. All Iwaki pumps are higher pressure ratings then the chreapaer pumps even there flow biased pumps. Their high volume pumps move less volumethen lesser brand pumps of the same wattage size as a result of the higher pressures. The standard aquarium.fountain pumps used by most low pressure aero people like EARL are basically made to move large volumes of water where there is also no resistance. They are really considered just circulation pumps. Height, pipe friction, fittings, filters spray heads etc all cause resistance so the pumps pressure, volume and pumping height very quicklty drop. A medium or high pressure pump as in the MD-20RZT. MD-30RZT or the MD-70RZT are made to pump to much greater heights at much higher pressures. Like they will pup at three times the pressure against three times the resistance but they flow 1/3 or 1/4 as much water. With hyroponic systems using misters and sprayers you do not need large flow volumes, but you need that pressure/resistance power. This allows you to spray a mist/fog verus having to buy large flow sprayers with big holes that will allow the use of a low pressure pump. If you look at their output it is streams of water, not a spray, mist or fog.

Here is a Iwaki site chart showing their different magnetic drive pumps
 
D

donnie189

Active Member
Any plans for these? I"ll be using the 4" fence posts.
My buddy built his already, and is doing well. I'm hoping mind won't look so hand made. Any plans for the GH Aeroflow2?

ThAnks,

Donnie
 
streetlegal

streetlegal

Well-Known Member
repvip said:
I've been running one unit on constant NFT for over 2 weeks now and am really impressed with the results. It is beating my intermittent NFT in growth. Remember, I still think sprayers will be best--that is the next experiement..

Here's a root shot of the continuous NFT after 2 weeks. These plants are lighter green than my others, not sure why, but they also have the tightest internodes. Plants under the HPS are 2 weeks further along using intermittent NFT...

oh yeah, the root shot has a thin black piece of fabric on the bottom of the post. I use liquid karma which does make the roots look brown...
Click to expand...
thanks RV, hella sick jungle pics and very handy info.. constant flow NFT shows better growth and tighter nodes YA HEARD.
 
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sherriberry

New Member
k, so this spreader mat, aka irrigation mat, aka nft mat... i searched around for them...

and every site that has them is in the UK... and they are sold in euros, not dollars.

shipping costs would be crazy from there...

so im trying to figure out... who the hell has them around here?

I tried cropking.com they have them but i think since i want such a low quantity of it.... they said sorry, cant help... and i asked for 50 ft of it.

so... any suggestions?

i know what would be the perfect material... they have woven plastic... youll usually see it in bags or something...

but it would never degrade, and if you could cut it to the proper shape and size... i think it would work well.

Found some of it on the net, but its in china.

i just cant win.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Many growers in th US just use silk screen cloth. http://cgi.ebay.com/50-x118-120-mesh-count-48T-fabric-silk-screen-printing_W0QQitemZ280440663370QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item414b90ed4a.

Polyester will not last forever but for a long time and it is readily available at most craft shops. Or stop by a silk screen shop. They are every where as silk screened T shirts and sweat shirts are still widely produced. Actually even many growers in Europe use silk screen cloth. There are also people who use aquarium polyester filter matting that comes in rolls in various thicknesses (not cheap). There are even a lot of growers who use astro turf in the bottom of their troughs. All have their own advantages and disadvantages. I even know a few growers who use bar matting. It is just platic matting that looks like a diamond mesh. Bar glasses are normally set on it while drying etc. Should be available at all restaurant supply houses. http://cgi.ebay.com/Johnson-Rose-Clear-Bar-and-Counter-Matting-73108_W0QQitemZ160384722065QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2557aca491
 
streetlegal

streetlegal

Well-Known Member
Sup.. this isnt to dis-credit anyones grow style cos each to their own..but after some research reading etc ive come to the conclusion that true aero growing isnt for me.. I started out very excited to design a new aero set-up, and ill say that i like to grow more then perso stash, and it isnt a viable road for me to take..taking into account things things that affect me personally like maintaining ideal temps in the climate im in, start-up capital etc..
I havnt found there to be a significant enough increase in yield (if any, 1 ounce per plant in sog) or speed to justify the set-up and maintenance of a true aero system that turns over the number of plants that id be looking to flip.. That said i think it would be a rewarding and satisfying method to grow less plants/perso stash.. Ill stick to aero/nft hybrid, but saying that, ill try to implement some of the things ive learnt about aero into my nft/aero design and make an even better system..

Pom Pom Roots Ppl POM POM ROOTS!!
 
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sherriberry

New Member
really all you have to do is get a new pump, get the pre filters, and get the sprayers (all and all under 150 bucks)... and just put those inside the fence posts that you are already used to using, and keep the aero nft hybrid setup going... just with a better aero side.
 
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sherriberry

New Member
so fatman, what temp do i want the roots and what temp do i want the room with the plants in a perfect aero setup during bloom?
 
streetlegal

streetlegal

Well-Known Member
sherriberry said:
really all you have to do is get a new pump, get the pre filters, and get the sprayers (all and all under 150 bucks)... and just put those inside the fence posts that you are already used to using, and keep the aero nft hybrid setup going... just with a better aero side.
Click to expand...
Yeh sb, attaining a finer micron mist is one of the things i meant wen i said id implement some 'true aero' advantages into my grow (although i know fatman will say im missing the benefits bcos the mist will just be hitting the walls of the channel instead of 'hovering' around the roots, which is exactly right:hump: thanks fatman) but a medium pressure pump at the min would even be better..

SB i was referring to true aero, as in growing in chambers, not for me.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
sherriberry said:
so fatman, what temp do i want the roots and what temp do i want the room with the plants in a perfect aero setup during bloom?
Click to expand...
That chiefly depends on the amount of Co2 you have available for the plants while the lights aree shining. If you are using no supplemental CO2 and little grow room ventilation ie ambient room air CO2 content from standard air movement, then you are limited to about the low to the mid 70's F. Ventilation can raise that to about 80 or 82 F. CO2 can pretty much remove the ceiling.

You would just have to have, light, nutrients and water levels adequate to handlke the growth needs at elevated CO2 levels. That should not be a problems as long as you have at least 50 to 60 watts pers square foot of lighting. Lesser end for SOG and the higher end for taller plants. As long as you are spraying and running a thin film and not a deep water layer reservoir DO level is not that important. However the deper the water is at the root masses the higher the DO must be. So with thin film your CO2 layer is controlling, with a deep water level at and around the roots you go back to DO levels in the reservoir being the more controlling parameter so reservoir temperatures must be kept lower so as to be more readily able to maintain high DO levels.

However you state your reservoir is outside the room. As long as you maintain low enough reservoir temps to maintain high water DO your plant temperatures will then again be dependant on grow room CO2 levels. This would mean a high of about 76 F extendable to mid 80's F with use of a venturi or needle wheel pump for the reservoir. With DWC it is best to have a DO of at least 3.0 mg/l for a minimum. That is not really that hard. As 6.75 mg/L would be the normal levels at 86 degrees F and 8.07 mg/L at 68 degrees would be a normal DO level for water at an EC of 2. With the roots exposed to air it is no problem with them under a thick layer it becomes a problem as O2 diffuses poorly so there must be a huge excess of DO in the water.

Every body makes a huge out roar about DO at different temps but few ever mention that nature only normally supplies 16% more DO at 68 degrees as it does at 86 degrees in water with an EC of 2. They always go as far as looking at maximim DO possible in pure (fresh) water at the different temps but never consider the waters EC. Even at an EC of 1 nature only supplies about 0.50 mg/L more DO at 68 or 86 degrees F. One needs only know that the DO level in the ocean is naturally lower than the DO level in lake water to realise that they can not compare nutrient reservoir DO levels to principles of DO in fresh water. Water with a high EC does not have the ability to hold the DO saturation levels of low EC water. The chief problem is poor O2 diffusion as DO levels are relatively easy to obtain. DO presence does not mean DO availability.
 
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