NEW NFT (nutrient film technique) SOG SETUP

panta said:

I just saw this thread,this is the same thing i made initialy to be a dwc table for sog but after a slime atack on my grow i found it very difficult to maintain,this is a plywood 4x7 feet table 2x600w hps,so now want to make it a mediumless ebb and flow with the pump running 24/7 or to tilt and do a NFT,any advice what would be a better system /less maintanance bigger yeild potencial/ ,if u have a good source of info on nft please post a link

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That table looks great for a flood and drain, to me. It obviously floods well, since it was designed for DWC. I think you would have to use a medium of some sort, but certain mediums are reusable, with a good cleaning. Then a way to control how often to flood, and for how long. There are floats to control the level... would be pretty low maintenance once it was setup.

Not sure about a mediumless ebb and flow... I never seen it...

With strict NFT it will be a little more maintenance, as the rez is constantly recirculated and needs to be tightly controlled. It is super, super easy and cheap to set up.

However, I've yet to see a NFT grow outperform a good Aero with adequate drainage, i.e. aero/nft...

anyone ever seen fans blowing air around in an aero root chamber?

other than the obvious difficulty of keeping the fans dry so they dont short out...

any thoughts on this idea?

sherriberry said:

anyone ever seen fans blowing air around in an aero root chamber?

other than the obvious difficulty of keeping the fans dry so they dont short out...

any thoughts on this idea?

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I'm not sure a blower or large fan would be a good idea, though you could split the ducting easily. Overdrying the roots might be a concern?

I have read of large NFT businesses actually using a compressor with piping through the channels, with holes drilled in the pipe. This rests in the channels and further aerates the water. Actually, now that I think about it... I doubt it aerates the water in such a thin layer, I guess it just provides more oxygen directly to the roots.

It is not uncommon to use a simple small air lin 1/4" from an aquarium air pump stuck through a drilled hole in the end cap of aero tubes. As it ith system water being sprayed running 24/7 through 10 gph plus sprayers (as is typical) you can provide qiuite a large amount of air and still some benefit. but you would receive much more if you just srayed inermittant wi and used higher pressure am nd misters instaead of low pressure. Deep water negates the benefits of aero because the benefits of aero is roots in air not lying submereged in water.

I have seen many intermittant sprayed NTF systems provide better yields and they do so with much less incidence of Root Rot than low pressure aero systems in tubes. Low

Low pressure aero systems would operate much better in chambers. They perform better in deep chambers that even 6' or 8" tubes. smply put if the roots sre not under a deep layer of water they perform better. Thin spread roots lying not in deep water, thin layer of water running through thin layer of roots show little difference. Thin spray(mist) with roots in air having the obvious advantage.

The commercial NTF growing operation do not used compressed air run through tubes. Close but not quite. They use air from regenerative blowers. http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1027/Regenerative-Blowers-by-Sweetwater They are high volume, low pressure blowers used to supply Oxygen laden air to the system. They are not used with the intention of adding DO to the water, but as suggested to assure a fresh continual suply of oxygenated air to the nearly enclosed channels. The channels are too long to just simply add air at the end. Commercial channels are typically 40 to 80 feet long.

I have a couple of the blowers. They are too noisy to use in a house even though they are very small 1/4 HP Gast blowers. They whine. I will use mine in a few remote grows where noise does not matter. They will supply air to large air atomizer systems. They use high volume low pressure air. They do not sound like a compressor at all. More like the whine of a car starter motor, only continuous. Mine put out 42 cubic foot per mimute each but only at a pressure of 1.5 psi maximum.

It is sad but most AERO systems are just copies od CC Earl's sad continous low pressure system. Using a low pressure high volume pumps, high volume sprayers that shoot assorted size streams of water. They use too small tubes so most of the roots sit in low DO deep water 24/7. They have many root rot problems and perform much worse than large chamber aero or even aero in large tubes. But they are cheap systems.

repvip said:

I'm not sure a blower or large fan would be a good idea, though you could split the ducting easily. Overdrying the roots might be a concern?

I have read of large NFT businesses actually using a compressor with piping through the channels, with holes drilled in the pipe. This rests in the channels and further aerates the water. Actually, now that I think about it... I doubt it aerates the water in such a thin layer, I guess it just provides more oxygen directly to the roots.

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i have the same table running as ebb and flow.im just trying to find a good way kick the medium out of it,in nft why do i need more time for maintanance tha ebb and flow,do u just turn the pump off so the solution drains to the res so u can adjust it and turn the pump back on

repvip said:

streetlegal have you started a setup yet?

What sort of strains do you have in mind?

I spent a few hours messing around with sprayers, sprinklers, misters and foggers today. They all suck. With low pressure water pumps. I actually think 1/16" holes drilled every 6" in 1/2" PVC will work the best. In test run, the jet stream collides with the wall or ceiling of the fence posts, depending on how you aim of course, and creates a nice explosion of water and mist, like niagara falls on it's side. The holes are small enough to still produce a considerable stream, while not letting out gallons of water. I doubt they will ever plug.

Here's to simplicity!

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Hey man, ah bluecheese, the bberry would make it alot more suited to sog (assuming its a bberry x)

Ive got a stink set-up which is packed up atm, i had an inspection recently. My mums are medicine man and black widow cuts which are making themselves useful elsewhere.. Ill be moving in Feb to a place with ducted a.c, i had a hard battle with rez temps and temps in general so that will be a relief. Ive got a portable 15 or 16thou portable a.c which could make a dent in temps but no hope when temps got realy high..


Ive just popped a pack Whiteberry from paradise for new mums, 4 popped 1 i squished trying to scuff it after 5-6 days in paper towel and 1 froze (got up then just stopped dead) so i have three which kinda pisses me off $80 odd for 3 seeds. These WB's are also a strange lime green color (not really showing up in pic) worried me a bit, was like they needed nutes so young so i gave my biggest seedling a light feed but i just think they are naturally lighter in coloring
And im vegging 2 cuts from a friend which are unknowns but good yielders, i think they probably a nice Chronic pheno. ive got these in coco, my first time.

The strains which i think ud have a good chance of finding a winning single cola 8 week pheno are:
White Rhino
Mr Nice- Shit
Chimera- bBerryxGrapefruit (same as SOL sweettooth1.1)
Chimera- Mental Floss
Mosca Negra- Grapefruit Fly (GFxC99)
Mosca Negra-Cinderella99 bx1
SOL-Blubonic
Ledgends-L.U.I (ledgends ultimate indica)
SOL- Donk
Mandala- Hashberry
My WhiteBerry pack says "very fast to flower and particularly well suited to sea of green grows. White Berry is model marijuana, slender and medium in height, with fresh green good looks and a single-cola dominance" 50 days flowering.

So forget the sprayers and jet direct out the pcv! another great fucking idea man that hadnt even crossed my mind. From reading ur posts RV i think ur alot smarter then u give urslf credit for, u have a good comprehension of some of the more advanced aspects of growing..

I had a conversation with a friend today about aero/nft, his thinkng was water sprayrs hitting roots at high pressure would hurt/damage the roots in the same way that water hurts ur skin if someone sprays u with the hose from close quarters

streetlegal said:

I had a conversation with a friend today about aero/nft, his thinkng was water sprayrs hitting roots at high pressure would hurt/damage the roots in the same way that water hurts ur skin if someone sprays u with the hose from close quarters

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Looks good mate!

First, I have to say that, I can't find a good way to properly operate sprayers or misters using low pressure, high flow pumps. A high pressure pump would solve all of these problems, and is probably where I will end up eventually.

In the meantime, I know the stinkbud systems work great, with high-flow sprayers and low pressure. The only problem is small channels and drainage. I think 1/4-1/2" of good draining medium in the bottom of my fence posts will make a huge difference. 20, 1/64" holes in ~25ft 1/2" pvc powered by 1056gph pump does put out streams of water, but not jet streams like it does with fewer holes. The pvc pipe is anchored to the top of the fence posts, inside, with the holes directly facing the opposite wall. From what I can tell, the collision with the wall causes small splashing, spraying droplets and increasing humidity, enough to get the net pots wet. The rest of the water flows down the side of the wall, then the bottom and out. A small amount of well-draining medium will be perfect, I think.

Either way, it's an improvment over NFT with the input at one end. Now there are multiple inputs, which could still be used as drippers with a smaller pump for continuous NFT. Plus, in the future when I get a higher pressure pump, I will be able to drill the holes larger and install misters.

Speaking of ideas...

I want to see what happens with 2-3 week old clones from DWC transferred into an aero system.

repvip said:

Looks good mate!

First, I have to say that, I can't find a good way to properly operate sprayers or misters using low pressure, high flow pumps. A high pressure pump would solve all of these problems, and is probably where I will end up eventually.

.

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1. PSI > 30, 50=Ideal, 100 psi even better.
2. Interval cycling 20-30 seconds on, 3-4 minutes off (Dark periods may extend dry periods).
3.Average droplet size 50µ (micron) nozzles (acceptable ranges 30-80µ) with flows < 2 gph preferably .5-1gph with screen filters of 150 and up.

This wot ur going for RV? Fuck im curious to see the yield difference u'd get..
Start looking at BIGGER channels, so big that the roots are suspended in air. Going down the TAG road

5. The greater the aerospace around the root zones the better—lateral root development equals bud thickness and development your goal are pom pom roots.

Media in the posts is another thing i hadnt even considered,.. Although does take away from the 'media-less growing' concept.. But wouldnt the roots just grow through the media into the bottom of the channel, defeating its purpose?

streetlegal said:

1. PSI > 30, 50=Ideal, 100 psi even better.
2. Interval cycling 20-30 seconds on, 3-4 minutes off (Dark periods may extend dry periods).
3.Average droplet size 50µ (micron) nozzles (acceptable ranges 30-80µ) with flows < 2 gph preferably .5-1gph with screen filters of 150 and up.

This wot ur going for RV? Fuck im curious to see the yield difference u'd get..
Start looking at BIGGER channels, so big that the roots are suspended in air. Going down the TAG road

5. The greater the aerospace around the root zones the better—lateral root development equals bud thickness and development your goal are pom pom roots.

Media in the posts is another thing i hadnt even considered,.. Although does take away from the 'media-less growing' concept.. But wouldnt the roots just grow through the media into the bottom of the channel, defeating its purpose?

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They would eventually grow through, but think how much more root mass would be suspended in air, and how much easier it would drain. The medium would need to be super low density.

Point number 5 is key.. It's why I want to take clones from DWC into these units.... Wish I could get two fence posts on top of another, to have twice the air volume. I've even thought of cutting 4" pvc into 4" length's, and installing them over the fence post holes.. Could probably get a reducer that would fit right down to a 2 or 3" net pot.

The stinkbud veg units work great. The ones with 2 rubbermaids on top of each other. They drain soon as they are sprayed, which must be part of it. Trying to model that in a fence post... just not enough volume!

I'd be going for 1 and 2 eventually. Those pumps are pricier, then will need another cycle timer, not to mention I use organic nutes.. I would prob switch to general hydroponics in that case--I'm certain there are clogging issues...

Have you ever done drywall? I put some plastic molding for corner walls in the bottom of the fence posts. The holes are actually 1/16", not 1/64", and there are now 40 pointed at the ceiling. This causes water to run down the walls and ceiling, when it reaches the net pots it runs down them, plus the ceiling drips a lot.

so you think the stinkbud fence posts would be too small if you spaced the plants a foot appart.. and had the 50 micron sprayers in there between each plant?

where does one get the 150 screen, i assume this is a pre filter for the feed lines so the sprayers dont get clogged?

let me know

I don't think they are too small. Guaranteed it will work. It might not be optimal... fatman would be a good time to chime in.

The obvious problem is, if you are using 2" net pots, they are typically 2" deep as well... so roots have only 2" more before they hit bottom...

If you could suspend the roots more it would work so much better. I have been trying to figure out how to place a net at the 2" level for some time.

Anyone with more experience should chime in ..

edit: dunno about the screen, a hydro store for sure one would think? maybe where you get the misters,,

IMHO Just skip the NFT aspect and go a few steps up the ladder in efficiency!! You might want to consider using chambers instead. From Home Depot or Lowes you can cheaply buy plastic utility sinks. Roughly 24" square. Just throw on a plexiglass lid with net pot holes. Insert mister heads inside with 1/4" tubing. Aero chambers. They have sloped bottoms and a drain hole already. They are cheap. Throw down a piece of plastic lighting grid with a layer of silk screen over that so roots do not damn up water and end up sitting in low DO water. They chambers are atll enough to get huge rrot system with little not hanging in air. Spray a second or two once per minute. Use about 1/3 strength nutrients. Use a medium pressure Iwaki pump for economy with say four 1 gph misters per cube.

Sink: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xnr/R-100415928/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Pump: http://cgi.ebay.com/Iwaki-Magnet-Pump-Model-MD-30RZT-115NL-Unused_W0QQitemZ230413386917QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Pumps?hash=item35a5b544a5

Fittings: http://www.freshwatersystems.com/c-500-john-guest-pp-range-white-polypropylene-fittings.aspx

Misters: http://www.dripirrigation.com/index.php?cPath=43&sort=2a&page=3



From there it is ust one more step to high pressure aero or air atomized chamber grows. They are where its at in peak growth/performance.

fatman7574 said:

From there it is ust one more step to high pressure aero or air atomized chamber grows. They are where its at in peak growth/performance.

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Thanks buddy!! That was perfect timing. I'd rep ya again, but I can't--so you get one of these

fatman7574 said:

IMHO Just skip the NFT aspect and go a few steps up the ladder in efficiency!! You might want to consider using chambers instead. From Home Depot or Lowes you can cheaply buy plastic utility sinks. Roughly 24" square. Just throw on a plexiglass lid with net pot holes. Insert mister heads inside with 1/4" tubing. Aero chambers. They have sloped bottoms and a drain hole already. They are cheap. Throw down a piece of plastic lighting grid with a layer of silk screen over that so roots do not damn up water and end up sitting in low DO water. They chambers are atll enough to get huge rrot system with little not hanging in air. Spray a second or two once per minute. Use about 1/3 strength nutrients. Use a medium pressure Iwaki pump for economy with say four 1 gph misters per cube.

Sink: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xnr/R-100415928/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Pump: http://cgi.ebay.com/Iwaki-Magnet-Pump-Model-MD-30RZT-115NL-Unused_W0QQitemZ230413386917QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Pumps?hash=item35a5b544a5

Fittings: http://www.freshwatersystems.com/c-500-john-guest-pp-range-white-polypropylene-fittings.aspx

Misters: http://www.dripirrigation.com/index.php?cPath=43&sort=2a&page=3



From there it is ust one more step to high pressure aero or air atomized chamber grows. They are where its at in peak growth/performance.

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This is some nice fucking info

sherriberry said:

so you think the stinkbud fence posts would be too small if you spaced the plants a foot appart.. and had the 50 micron sprayers in there between each plant?

where does one get the 150 screen, i assume this is a pre filter for the feed lines so the sprayers dont get clogged?

let me know

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Nothing is going to completely stop all particulate formation. I use standard housing tyoe filers as areused as sediment prefilters as with an RO filter. I use a largerer micron size (20 micro) than I use with my RO filters. The 20 micron are small enough to trap any sediments/particulates that would clog sprayers but not so small as to lower water pressure. Just a standard 10" cartridge. http://cgi.ebay.com/Polyspun-20-Micron-Sediment-Water-Filter-Purifier-10_W0QQitemZ170417644553QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Home_Appliances?hash=item27adaee409

It also helps to use a filter bag where the water returns to the reservoir to remove bits and peices of organics. http://cgi.ebay.com/5-4-x14-25-Micron-Polyester-Filter-Bags-SVO-Biodiesel_W0QQitemZ270289014420QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3eee7b0e94

reading between the lines...

wouldnt the 3/4 gph provide a smaller micron size than the 1 gph sprayers?

also...

when applying this to the stink bud fence posts (which i am doing on this setup, but may build more later with a bigger root chamber like your sink or tub)

... i would think that the THREADED sprayers would go right into pvc pipe the same way we drill holes for the 10/32 screw in sprayers stink bud uses.

this would make it a heck of a lot easier to install into the fence post pipe, and adjust mister angles if everything was rigid attached to a pvc line.

thanks

sherriberry said:

reading between the lines...

wouldnt the 3/4 gph provide a smaller micron size than the 1 gph sprayers?

also...

when applying this to the stink bud fence posts (which i am doing on this setup, but may build more later with a bigger root chamber like your sink or tub)

... i would think that the THREADED sprayers would go right into pvc pipe the same way we drill holes for the 10/32 screw in sprayers stink bud uses.

this would make it a heck of a lot easier to install into the fence post pipe, and adjust mister angles if everything was rigid attached to a pvc line.

thanks

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The 3/4 gph provide the same micron size water droplets, just less of them (ie less flow).

The threads really strip out very easily in the PVC pipe. If you use the John Guest fittings you do not have to ever unscrew the fitting from the PVC pipe you just unplug the hose with the mister attached and plug in a spare. The spray heads are just stuck into a hole drilled through the fense post pipe. Just part of the mister goes into the pipe and a lip plus the nipple stays outside the pipe. It just friction fits into the hole in the fence post. It is not threaded in or glued etc.

I have no idea what stink bud does or is doing. I just know that PVC schedule 40 pipe is very soft and the threads are usually only good for one use. PVC pipeis usually only threaded when it is the thicker schedule 80 pipe. Even then it is threaded with coarse pipe threads, not fine threads like the 10/32 threads. Many times the small 10/32 theads in the PVC pipe strip out the first time you thread something into them if your not careful. That is why I just use some PVC cement and permanently install John Guest fittings.

good info fatman.

I can see the john guess is the better way to go, however, i had to go ahead and order some, and i got the threaded ones.

they arent expensive, and i alreayd have the pvc pipe, which is also not expensive...

so worse case scenario i cement them into the pvc... ill let you know how it goes.

what im doing just to get me by for a while is building an air tight room that is about 6ft x 8ft, and TRY to contain smell.

im going to have an exhaust fan at the top go through a carbon filter, and an inlet fan down low (and actually have a weak carbon filter on the way in to keep out bugs, etc)

but heres the cool part...

im going to cut the square holes in the side of the room walls (panda wrap that is jsut framed up with some 2x3's)

the tips of the fence posts will come OUTSIDE the room, and there will be an air tight seal (waterproof tape) around the edge of the post to the panda wrap, and my res will be OUTSIDE the room.

this will allow me to go higher on the temps in the room, higher on the co2, and the fense posts will only have access to cooler outside room, higher oxygen air.

plus i wont have to enter exit my smell proof room (whihc defeats the purpose in the first place) when i need to change or add res fluid (...every day i add a pitcher

so to keep the sprayers and the plumbing WITHIN the fence post, i see it the simplest and most cost effective right now just to have a 1/2 pvc and screw them directly into that, and position it in the top corner of the post all the way down the length, and tilt the sprayers down at a 45 deg angle from the corner of the post.

i know it wont be optimal root space, however, if a person was doing sog, the plants CANT get that big anyway, so limited root space becomes a mute point.

I will still be using your big kwikiwiwki pump Ordered one today.

thanks bro for all the tips

I love the idea of keeping your reservoirs outside the room! Wish I would have got 100" fence posts and done the same thing. I guess it's still possible to install end caps, drain hoses, and move the rezzies, but getting sick of changing shit

On the bright side, the fence posts are strong enough to walk on! During harvest, I end up crawling on top to get the rear ladies. A simple 2'x4' frame holds them up.

fatman what sort of backup power supply do you have for your pumps, in case of power outtage?

sherriberry how are you going to control humidity? Will you exhaust on a timer, with timed CO2 injections? Or are you going with a ppm controller?

I think keeping the reservoirs outside the room will help a lot with your humidity.. I can watch mine jump when the pumps turn on, then the dehumidifier turns on, then it heats up and the a/c kicks on and repeat