Light ???

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Believe me, I think we're actually on the same page here.
As we usually are. I'm not even saying HPS > LED. I can think of a few situations where I'd prefer LED.

Efficiency is one of the few numbers that means exactly the same thing on paper and in reality.
[...]
It's important that people do not confuse the words efficiency, efficacy and effectiveness. Most people do misuse the word efficiency.
The way you use it it means both the same in reality and on paper yes: not necessarily something in practice for growers. That's my point. You specifically wrote what you meant with efficiency, which is what I quoted.

"By efficiency, I mean the total power output in light over the power in. (W/W)"

What it comes down to is that you use total power output in light as the output to determine the efficiency, while the relevant output for growers is bud in grams, and not total light. Especially when comparing HPS to LED, you take the common factor as output, something any led grower should based on their own common arguments agree with.

Specifically, you are talking about electrical efficiency: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_efficiency And electrical efficiency doesn't necessarily says something about how efficient it grows bud.

HPS spectrum is actually really good for producing marijuana flowers. It's not just bombarding the plant with photons
Not trying to start an argument with you, not a lot of people who's responses I put value in when it comes to led, but that's an interesting comment cause I'm pretty sure I read some research of our agricultural university doing a large scale long term test in which HPS is the photon cannon and LED is used to supplement the spectrum. Similar (yet completely different because of the full spectrum more a brute force method) with plasma, the HPS bombards photons, the plasma completes the spectrum. The philips elite agro cmh bulbs are marketed as "the plasma killer" by some, and can (should) be used for the same purpose, improve the spectrum while hps bombards the photons. And yes, that would work with a good T5 too.
 
Last edited:

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
I read some research of our agricultural university doing a large scale long term test in which HPS is the photon cannon and LED is used to supplement the spectrum.
Are you sure they weren't describing the apparatus/procedure in that statement rather than making a conclusion about the results?

The philips elite agro cmh bulbs are marketed as "the plasma killer" ... improve the spectrum while hps bombards the photons. And yes, that would work with a good T5 too.
This is the same secret sauce marketing LED manufacturers use to trick people into buying crap that's inferior to a 600W HPS. That it improves HPS's terrible spectrum by adding more desirable wavelengths and blah blah. Does the spectrum improvement translate to more grams?? How do you know the changes to the spectrum won't decrease yield and make results worse than adding more HPS instead? Does it take less electricity to run the elite agro CMH bulbs over HPS to get the same amount of grams of weed?


And yes, that would work with a good T5 too.
Can you show me a setup where HPS + T5 produced more than HPS + HPS of the same wattage? What's so good about T5? What's so bad about HPS spectrum, and why does it need supplementation?
 
Last edited:

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Doesn't anyone else see it as backwards reasoning that the red portion of makes HPS is what makes it good, when it peaks in the yellow-amber region and has relatively little red in comparison? Why do so many people think the yellow-amber peak is a waste rather than being a major contributing factor toward their success?.

It seems like a reaction to cognitive dissonance more than anything else. It would be easier to conclude that the spectral region between yellow-amber must be the sweet region for producing dense nugs simply as a result of HPS's success and R+B array failure.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Are you sure they weren't describing the apparatus/procedure in that statement rather than making a conclusion about the results?
Could be the case in that specific test, like I said it's an ongoing large scale test (multiple large greenhouses over years) and the results are not complete in any case. It seems to be the general consensus however that LED is good to have more control over the spectrum but is not good enough (yet) to replace HPS.

Some of the other light sources provide either a more specific or a more complete spectrum that can be used to compliment HPS, with a wide range of effects. And like I said that "would" (if the claims are correct) work with T5 too.

Do I really need to argue light steering with a LED grower. Spectrum matters.

I never said HPS is bad (on the contrary, it's rather complete), or one combination leads to more yield than the other, or that cmh is better or cheaper than hps, or any of the things your bombardment" of misplaced burden of proof imply. I grow HPS only. Just said I find it interesting your claim opposes the ones I typically see and read.

This is the same secret sauce marketing LED manufacturers use
Well, apart from my last comment above, the plasma light I'm referring to isn't made like any of those secret sauce marketing LED companies who try to trick home growers but a company that develops professional horticulture lighting based on professional research and tests.

The plasma is better than the Son-T HPS for indoor growing without daylight (as in closed greenhouses). The main reason it's not that popular in the dutch greenhouses like HPS is is because there's usually enough daylight to compliment the HPS to grow quality products (some leave HPS 30 min off during daylight so it gets only sunlight spectrum which according to scientific tests, no bro-science, leads to better quality for some crops). During mid winter however, some use plasma to supplement the HPS because there isn't enough daylight to produce the same quality as during the summer.

^^That's just one example from one of the many trade magazines and I don't know how reliable that particular piece is, just an example...

A better resource (not sure if that's "the" test but skimming through it, see page 7, 11, note efficiency too caring about kg/m2 )

http://ledapplicatie.nl/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2014/02/LED-research-Wageningen-UR-Glastuinbouw-6-febr-2014.pdf

And that's why I don't put much value into most of the stuff posted about lighting in an mj grow forum, I can easily find professional and expert info in two different languages that extensively test the result on yield, taste, color, internodes, structure, etc, etc.

zonlicht+led.jpg

http://www.tuinbouw.nl/sites/default/files/documenten/Eindrapport_13814_deel 1.pdf (dutch but pics and graphs give the idea... )
 

TheChemist77

Well-Known Member
how do u figure the watts per square ft? can 1 600 watt hps cover a 4x6 ft area? or would 2 400 watters be better, or even 2 600 watters? in order to get a gram per watt it is possible to be using too much light in an area, that would make it impossible to get a gram per watt..like if your using more light per ft than ur plants can use correct? isnt 50 watts per square foot ideal? or is more better?
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
I should make a sock puppet and join the LED guys for a while...

http://www.hortidaily.com/article/2196/Tomatoes-contain-extra-vitamin-C-thanks-to-LED-lighting
"The tomatoes that responded most strongly, were the ones to receive additional Led exposure. Some varieties actually contained twice as much vitamin C as the unexposed tomatoes."

http://www.ledinside.com/news/2015/1/dutch_researchers_find_strawberries_taste_better_when_led_grow_lights_are_added
Dutch Researchers Find Strawberries Taste Better When LED Grow Lights Are Added
"Strawberries taste better when they are illuminated in the autumn with LED grow lights, vitamin C content also increased as well, according to a Dutch research institute."

^Tested in that same setting, which is "Innovation & Demonstration Centre LED (IDC LED) of the Wageningen UR Greenhouse Horticulture in Bleiswijk" https://www.wageningenur.nl/en/show/Wageningen-UR-Greenhouse-Horticulture-Bleiswijk.htm

Effect of LEDs on flower bud induction in Chrysanthemum morifolium cv. Zembla
http://www.wageningenur.nl/en/Publication-details.htm?publicationId=publication-way-343437343437

Comparing hps,led, positions geek style: http://edepot.wur.nl/237377

 

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't put too much value into scientific studies that are primarily concerned with the source of light rather than the spectrum and intensity.

A good scientific study would mention that leds were used in the procedure, but it's irrelevant how the spectrum was created in the conclusion. What's important is how much the relative intensity of red effected the concentration of vitamin-C.

Either way, flowers are a lot different than fruits. What might be an ideal condition for fruiting and foliage development actually inhibits flowering response. Too high of a red/far-red ratio is known to delay flowering response, and yield lass mass in flowers.

http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/42/4/532.full.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1399-3054.1965.tb06910.x/abstract
http://journal.ashspublications.org/content/126/3/275.full.pdf
http://www.actahort.org/books/14/14_8.htm
https://books.google.com/books?id=WBw_EJSRNrYC&lpg=PA95&ots=F-kAaRce2r&dq=red light inhibits flowering&pg=PA95#v=onepage&q=red light inhibits flowering&f=false



I should make a sock puppet and join the LED guys for a while...

http://www.hortidaily.com/article/2196/Tomatoes-contain-extra-vitamin-C-thanks-to-LED-lighting
"The tomatoes that responded most strongly, were the ones to receive additional Led exposure. Some varieties actually contained twice as much vitamin C as the unexposed tomatoes."

http://www.ledinside.com/news/2015/1/dutch_researchers_find_strawberries_taste_better_when_led_grow_lights_are_added
Dutch Researchers Find Strawberries Taste Better When LED Grow Lights Are Added
"Strawberries taste better when they are illuminated in the autumn with LED grow lights, vitamin C content also increased as well, according to a Dutch research institute."

^Tested in that same setting, which is "Innovation & Demonstration Centre LED (IDC LED) of the Wageningen UR Greenhouse Horticulture in Bleiswijk" https://www.wageningenur.nl/en/show/Wageningen-UR-Greenhouse-Horticulture-Bleiswijk.htm

Effect of LEDs on flower bud induction in Chrysanthemum morifolium cv. Zembla
http://www.wageningenur.nl/en/Publication-details.htm?publicationId=publication-way-343437343437

Comparing hps,led, positions geek style: http://edepot.wur.nl/237377
 
Last edited:

Sativied

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't put too much value into scientific studies that are primarily concerned with the source of light rather than the spectrum and intensity.
Yeah, that's why electrical efficiency of the light source doesn't necessarily mean a lot. :)

It's always about spectrum, intensity/spread/positioning. It's the difference in source of light however, not being limited to HPS, that allows for experimenting and tuning of the spectrum and intensity. Experimenting with difference source lights without caring about the spectrum and intensity is obviously never a goal by itself and never the primary concern of a real scientific study even if it's just summed up like that for an article.

Either way, flowers are a lot different than fruits. What might be an ideal condition for fruiting and foliage development actually inhibits flowering response. Too high of a red/far-red ratio is known to delay flowering response, and yield lass mass in flowers
It was just an example in the given context. Indeed not everything that applies to tomatoes applies to cannabis too.
 
Last edited:

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Blue leds are actually the most efficient, but since so little blue is required to grow plants, nobody even uses blue leds anymore.

White leds are just blue leds with a phosphor doped resin to convert the blue to a wide band emission, and energy is lost in this conversion. The lower the color temperature, the more blue is converted.

My point is that nobody is using 5000k leds for flowering despite them having much higher efficiency than 3000k. The 3000k ones produce better in terms of grams per watt of bud despite slightly lower efficiency.

3000k 80cri actually produces just as good, if not better than 3000k 80cri supplemented with 660nm red to even the spectrum. So far, nobody has showed a correlation between 660nm supplementation and increased yield. The results there aren't in yet.

Yeah, that's why electrical efficiency of the light source doesn't necessarily mean a lot. :)

It's always about spectrum, intensity/spread/positioning. It's the difference in source of light however, not being limited to HPS, that allows for experimenting and tuning of the spectrum and intensity.
Assuming you found the perfect spectrum, spread, layout, intensity, etc, wouldn't it be better to have that same setup for less electricity?
 
Last edited:

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Assuming you found the perfect spectrum, spread, layout, intensity, etc, wouldn't it be better to have that same setup for less electricity?
Obviously. Your hypothetical situation, where the compared lights sources all have the perfect spectrum and intensity up to a point where those factors becomes completely irrelevant, and all that matters is what the light source is, doesn't exist.

If the experts find said hypothetical perfect spectrum and intensity then lowering the electricity would be about lowering the electricity while maintaining that perfect spectrum. Using less electricity to reach the same intensity means you just increased the intensity relatively.

Remember it was in reply to "I wouldn't put too much value into scientific studies that are primarily concerned with the source of light rather than the spectrum and intensity."
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
My point was that in a scientific experiment, efficiency isn't important as long as you can control the spectrum and intensity. You could use 40% or 20% efficient 660nm leds in a science experiment and it should produce the same results as long as you end up with the same amount of red.. You could even use a prism on an incandescent and use only the 660nm portion.. which would obviously be very inefficient.

Outside of an experiment, the efficiency is very important. LEDs of the same exact spectral output and distribution pattern vary in efficiency by so much, it makes no sense to even make generalizations about leds. Some leds 20%-25% efficiency, which is just totally pointless, while there are top of the line 3000k 80cri whites as high as 60% efficiency, not in a lab. Almost everything you see on the market is 20-25% efficiency... garbage, not nearly as good as generic HPS.

The links you posted seemed to be LED hype.

Remember it was in reply to "I wouldn't put too much value into scientific studies that are primarily concerned with the source of light rather than the spectrum and intensity."
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
The links you posted seemed to be LED hype.
I should make a sock puppet and join the LED guys for a while...
The links I posted are however not just LED hype, and most of them not at all. On the contrary. The Wageningen UR is a highly reputable university that works closely together with labs, greenhouses (huge greenhouse companies that is) and manufactures and the research often contains very intellectual honest nuanced conclusions. By itself something people in mj grow forums doing tests could learn a lot from. The research is targeted at people who care only about results and efficiency in ways that matter (yield/quality -> money).
 

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
I meant the one from ledinside.com in particular.

The links I posted are however not just LED hype, and most of them not at all. On the contrary. The Wageningen UR is a highly reputable university that works closely together with labs, greenhouses (huge greenhouse companies that is) and manufactures and the research often contains very intellectual honest nuanced conclusions. By itself something people in mj grow forums doing tests could learn a lot from. The research is targeted at people who care only about results and efficiency in ways that matter (yield/quality -> money).
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
I meant the one from ledinside.com in particular.
The site may be a led hype site, the article may seem as such, the research is not. (it may be premature or flawed or w/e). I'm not doing another rant on the greenhouse industry here but again, Wageningen UR and IDC and their properly conducted professional experiments have nothing to do with hype, on the very contrary. It's partly government funded research as our economy largely depends on it, especially tomatos (not even kidding, where do you think italians make pasta sauce with all year long). Energy for artificial lighting is one of the main expenses, but no professional greenhouse owner for who the research is done is interested in hypes, only numbers.

Which reminds me of a book I wanted to recommend after something you mentioned in a pm, regarding testing nutes:
http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-90-481-2532-6
That's written by a professor at Wageningen UR and contains a lot of details, facts based on proper research, about nutrientsin various mediums.


Not the report/conclusion, but here's some info and perhaps a better impression of that strawberry led experiment: http://www.wageningenur.nl/en/Expertise-Services/Research-Institutes/Wageningen-UR-Greenhouse-Horticulture/show/Strawberries-planted-at-IDC-Flavour-in-Bleiswijk.htm
 
Last edited:

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
so has anyone jacked their temps up to 94 and turned off their lights in the middle of the day for an hour, like OP does?
 

greendave

Active Member
You also need to add about 3" more soil to that pot.

Light intensity should be adjusted according to a plant's light saturation point. A very important concept that is NEVER discussed in forums with the exception of me bringing it up now and then.

Like Riddle said, it's the sum of the parts.
La de da
 

bellcore

Well-Known Member
so has anyone jacked their temps up to 94 and turned off their lights in the middle of the day for an hour, like OP does?
I'm giving a 30 minute midday break and now have my remote temp sensor just below the canopy. Also just picked up a used Sun Blaze T5HO-24 on craigslist yesterday to supplement the 250w HID. It has 4 6500k veg bulbs in it.

For flower I'm thinking
(2) 3000k generic bulbs
(1) ATI True Antic (approximately 420nm) or (1) ZoomMed Reptisun 10 UVB
(1) ATI Coral Plus (around 15000K+) or (1) ZooMed OceanSun 10000k 420 Daylight

Any comments/suggestions from people that have been members of RIU for more than three months? Thanks :-)
 
  • Like
Reactions: RM3

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Efficiency is one of the few numbers that means exactly the same thing on paper and in reality. You could take a kil-o-watt meter to measure how efficient your driver is.
I roast coffee and many in this hobby have a Kill-O-Watt meter. Funny you should mention it. I think that meter and a light meter would worth your while if you're a serious indoor gardener. http://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424613270&sr=8-1&keywords=kill+o+watt
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Unless you have a unique setup with multiple bulbs or experiment with diy leds a light meter is a waste of money and the serious grower would imo be better of getting some pro advice. Any good light and hood manufacturer can give you a light recipe (based on professional meters) for your setup and tell you exactly how much ppfd per sqft / m2 a certain light with a given hood at a certain distance will result in.

how do u figure the watts per square ft? can 1 600 watt hps cover a 4x6 ft area? or would 2 400 watters be better, or even 2 600 watters?
2x600 or 1 kWatt, either would work very well in that space (I'd got for 1k).

The difference in efficiency between (quality) 600w HPS and 1000w isn't really large enough anymore to consider if you got a small space like that. The best light is largely dictated by the space.

Watt by itself means little, what's more relevant (besides spectrum...) is PPFD.

Too much light on a plant can cause saturation... which can happen if you supply too much light at once, or give it too many hours light.

The ideal PPFD (which is pretty much the spread, if you raise the bulb, you spread out the ppf decreasing the density) is figured out for all indoor grow species. Some plants don't give a fuck about the length of day, like roses (don't need dark hours at all and still don't get saturated and should get 20-24 hours light).


*************
Effect of different photosynthetic photon flux densities (0, 500, 1000, 1500 and 2000 μmol m−2s−1), temperatures (20, 25, 30, 35 and 40 °C) and CO2 concentrations (250, 350, 450, 550, 650 and 750 μmol mol−1) on gas and water vapour exchange characteristics of Cannabis sativa L. were studied to determine the suitable and efficient environmental conditions for its indoor mass cultivation for pharmaceutical uses. The rate of photosynthesis (PN) and water use efficiency (WUE) of Cannabis sativa increased with photosynthetic photon flux densities (PPFD) at the lower temperatures (20–25 °C). At 30 °C, PN and WUE increased only up to 1500 μmol m−2s−1 PPFD and decreased at higher light levels. The maximum rate of photosynthesis (PN max) was observed at 30 °C and under 1500 μmol m−2s−1 PPFD. The rate of transpiration (E) responded positively to increased PPFD and temperature up to the highest levels tested (2000 μmol m−2s−1 and 40 °C). Similar to E, leaf stomatal conductance (gs) also increased with PPFD irrespective of temperature. However, gs increased with temperature up to 30 °C only. Temperature above 30 °C had an adverse effect on gs in this species. Overall, high temperature and high PPFD showed an adverse effect on PN and WUE. A continuous decrease in intercellular CO2 concentration (Ci) and therefore, in the ratio of intercellular CO2 to ambient CO2 concentration (Ci/Ca) was observed with the increase in temperature and PPFD. However, the decrease was less pronounced at light intensities above 1500 μmol m−2s−1. In view of these results, temperature and light optima for photosynthesis was concluded to be at 25–30 °C and ∼1500 μmol m−2s−1 respectively. Furthermore, plants were also exposed to different concentrations of CO2 (250, 350, 450, 550, 650 and 750 μmol mol−1) under optimum PPFD and temperature conditions to assess their photosynthetic response. Rate of photosynthesis, WUE and Ci decreased by 50 %, 53 % and 10 % respectively, and Ci/Ca, E and gs increased by 25 %, 7 % and 3 % respectively when measurements were made at 250 μmol mol-1 as compared to ambient CO2 (350 μmol mol−1) level. Elevated CO2 concentration (750 μmol mol−1) suppressed E and gs ∼ 29% and 42% respectively, and stimulated PN, WUE and Ci by 50 %, 111 % and 115 % respectively as compared to ambient CO2 concentration. The study reveals that this species can be efficiently cultivated in the range of 25 to 30 °C and ∼1500 μmol m−2s−1 PPFD. Furthermore, higher PN, WUE and nearly constant Ci/Ca ratio under elevated CO2 concentrations in C. sativa, reflects its potential for better survival, growth and productivity in drier and CO2 rich environment.
**************

Those are the temps I recommend as a long as they are in between 25-30C I don't make an effort to change it.
The above is based on tests with a mexican variety.


I'm 99% sure that article @RM3 linked to earlier, the article http://www.gavita-holland.com/index.php/item/lumens-are-for-humans.html is written by that forum admin turned gavita employee 'whazzup'. For really good discussions - not conversations - about lighting (HPS) look up his posts at icmag (member since 2006...), thcfarmer and other forums.

********From that article*********
Roughly these are a few examples of recommendations for a high light recipe of around 700 µmol m-2 s-1. Calculations made with 10% reflector / wall losses:

400W a) - 1 x 1 m - 1 m2 at a ppfd of ~ 650 µmol m-2 s-1
600W b) - 1,2 x 1,2 m - 1,44 m2 at a ppfd of ~ 690 µmol m-2 s-1
1000W c) - 1,5 x 1,5 m - 2,25 m2 at a ppfd of ~800 µmol m-2 s-1
********

1000watt on 4x4' would roughly produce 1400 ppfd minus 10% reflection/wall loss is roughly 1250 left. Doable especially with good climate control. By using the same light on 5x5 or 4x6 you're likely to get more yield. Since the light pattern also won't be completely uniform, there will likely be peak areas that exceed the 1500ppfd in a small/minimal space.

I tried to find something about midday depression at WUR but the term doesn't translate literally to something useful. Considering the enormous amount of electricity spent in the greenhouse industry here, light schedules are extremely important and I expect to find some better info but found a bunch of papers about assimilation saturation, and comments how that with some species typically occurs at midday. Which turns out to be often a result of low humidity and high temps outdoors... (like in Texas?).
 
Last edited:
Top