Illumination
New Member
Not much at all comparing results from then to now from high $$ lights....
Sorry if you disagree but I am cool with that
Namaste'
Led Users Unite!
- Thread starter project fuoro
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Sorry if you disagree but I am cool with that
Namaste'
kush groove
Active Member
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[youtube]EtbDL0stkRA&feature=fvwrel[/youtube]
[youtube]yy62DdNpsqc[/youtube]
tokenbrownguy
Active Member
So I've asked on multiple threads, and even started a couoe of threads about led. I am a noob, and am cueerently on grow 1. I use a 250 hps, and am looking for supplemental lighting, with minimal heat output, and minimal effect on my electric bill. I'm very curious about LED and have researched a little. From opinions and subjective/objective research I've done, I'm still no more informed than I was initially. Can somebody please inform me on the FACTS of led lighting and the benefits over hps?
mad dog bark
Well-Known Member
read this thread and wot a waste off time. would thought this would been used to inform led users the best results people got and can prove it. also maybe people with panels doing side by side comparisions. i.e black star vs magnums vs stealth vs custom built. any ideas on any site like that?
LookN2Research
Member
I certainly dont claim to understand everything about lighting, but have had interest in a friends tech details on his stuff and compared LED's, and MH/HPS 1000W with a digilux and his little black star 240W is putting out 120,000 LUX in some distances, and easily holiding above the "50,000 LUX MAX light rating" and can hold a solid 100,000 lux with 90,000 LUX being considered "too much light", but here are the Pros and Cons on the LED (1st).
The 145W max Draw 240W Black Star
Pros:
1. It is hitting the identical lumens as the 1,000W, and that is supposed to be considered double the light and supposedly the LEDs dont cause whats called "solorarization" (Im not EVEN about to claim I know what that mean! LOL!) at the suns peak of 90,000LUX if someone is looking at that aspect. I'll get into how the true penetration of the LED bottoms out in just a bit per the meter.
2. The new BS 240 HO & Bloom are using UVB rays and supplying active cannabanoid reactions that happen only with the light of the sun, and not MH nor HPS supply that spectrum, and others directly targeted for mariijuana growth. Compact, but supposedly in afct stronger. HPS is also the more orange and yellow spectrum when the ultimate Nm is 660Nm of straight up RED. I was impressed by it so much as far as spectrum is concerned.
3. You can put that sucker all the way up to just about scrubbing the light, and these is no issue.
4. 1 person reported having 20% more crystals compared to using a 600 HPS, but at the same time it can be harder to notice a genuine 10-20% difference other than thinking "MAN, this plant has incredible genes", but still maybe never really notice that difference. I have not seen this for myself for proof, but their is actual documentation, and a lot of people dont know how to use an LED because most dont understand the soild schedule, and they nuke them on top of it all. I say Fox Farms since it balances pH between 6.2-6.7, and then use pH balanced Advanced Nutrients (make sure theyre are the new pH balanced labels) and you're always dialed in. Its weird seeing someone have no control over something yet it be healthy since the Base balances the pH on top of the soil doing the same.
I'm rambling my pants off and am moving to the cons.
Cons:
1. Yeah, those LUX are great, and especially knowing you can put more energy in the plant with the correct light spectrums without an issues, but it cannot penetrate more than about a foot before dropping below the intensity to those certain sections you REALLY want to get to when you run a 240 in place of a 500, but even the 500 wont go extremely far down, and so this is kind of a PRO where you are looking for supplemental lighting. Dont get me wrong... You can grow a beast with a 500W BS and it is a certified estimated average of a 15% increase just by using a "Grow-Pot" (but everyone probably knows by now that they arent just known in Europe anymore).
2. The intensity majorly drops off of the sides of each lense (immediately almost getting to high end CFL style... :/ ) So, you can EASILY covery and penetrate and add some sugar (hardcore) by probably just trying an experiment with a BS 240W on each side even if the plant is that tall, because you will add those missing spectrums it wants. 1 on each side has to be plenty, and then I would say just do a 1/4 turn per day/night
The way you would be hitting the lower ends of a tall Sativa, or nailing the entire indica at a 45 degree angle then you should produce a spectrum that makes something very intersing.
I'm going away now, I will be back when my brain returns if I didnt just make an idiot out of myself. I havent smoked in over a week and someone had something more potent than Ive had all year and so I need to take a break a moment. Sleepy time. I USB digitally scoped nothing but the trichs off of it in a little pile, and they are a perfectly milky Indica that still leaves a very nice calming effect with energy at the same time. Somebody did GOOOOD.
I have no idea what strain it is/was (I killed it before typing this and it kind of hit me like AK with pure kief. :/ T.K.O. in the perfect pain killing way).
LookN2Research
Member
Hm... I just stumbled upon these videos on youtube today. What do you think about these 6+ watt LEDs that are being produced with like 28 LEDS and a 300+ watt draw with no fans. Just a heatsink? I've read different things needing the same wattage in a smaller bulb so they arent spaced so fat apart, and I have heard of problems with only running 2 spectrums etc. What do you think the LED future is coming to?
virulient
Active Member
The 6w diodes are going to be huge when they can make them a bit more affordable in the proper color ranges.
300 watts and no fan, seems like a risk not worth taking. Just throw a fan in there...it's not difficult, expensive, or time-consuming so why not?
About the 2 spectrums....you will get a lot of differing answers on that. The more spectrums you can fit in, the better, but getting the proper amount of each color to better imitate the sun's spectrum is our ultimate goal. Plants are more receptive to blues and reds, so obviously those are your 2 main, but how many diodes of each of the other colors would you need to fill in the spectrum without taking too much away from your red/blue? The answer to that is the cause of MUCH debate. Hope this helps, I feel like I was talking in a circle there, hopefully it wasn't too bad.
virulient
Active Member
A few different people have answered each question you have asked. I will try to sum it up quickly :
Benefits of LED OVER HID -
1. Less heat (less cooling needed)
2. Less electricity
3. More broad variety of colors, can change the spectrum to fit your particular need (i.e. blue for veg, red for flower, etc..)
4. Longer life - LED's will last 35k-50k hours
Drawbacks of LED's -
1. Less light penetration
2. Less light coverage
3. Costs much more up-front than Fluorescent/HID systems
For the interests of supplemental lighting, those are all I can think of. It's really a simple decision. For cheap/cool/low energy supplemental lighting LED is best, but you're going to pay for it if you get a quality light.
In conclusion - If you're wondering if LED's work....yes. Their light is absorbed by our plants and used for photosynthesis. And since you are talking about supplemental lighting, I don't believe penetration/coverage is much of a concern. So if you can afford to add an LED panel or two to your setup, they will most definitely work for what you are trying to do.
Things to look for in an LED panel :
1. True wattage (voltage x amps)
2. The number of diodes divided by the true wattage will tell you how many amps EACH diode is actually getting (numbers will be slightly off because of the fans, but the difference is insignificant)
3. The brand of the diode, and check to be sure they are High Output.
4. Lens angle (the less the angle, the more spread out it will be, but the penetration will be less. The inverse is also true)
I tried to cover everything, if I missed anything I apologize. Hopefully this helps, and if you have any more questions feel free to send me a message if you like, I can usually get you a quick answer.
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
Most of your advantages are pretty false in fairness. Less heat,ok I'll give it that one.
But less electricity? 1000w is 1000w regardless of whether it's LED,HPS or kitchen microwave.
Better variety of colours,can change colours? LED colour range is limited by the diode colour,same as HID,except with HID you can actually change the bulb quite easily unlike LED.
Longer life is also false because the expensive part of the HID is the ballast(which can last up to ten years) and for the cost difference between the two fixtures and the low cos of bulbs it negates that argument entirely.
Basically the only no bullshit advantage to LEDs is the low heat, and most LED growers will admit this too.
virulient
Active Member
More colors - You can get a diode in almost any color on the PAR spectrum
Less electricity - You wouldn't replace a 1000w HID with a 1000w LED.
Longer life - I'll clarify. No bulb replacements.
This is why no one answers your question, tokenbrownguy. It's simply not worth it. I try to help someone who is new to LED's. I list the most basic shit. The first things you find when you start looking into LEDs. And you still got some fucking retard wanting to argue over it.
If you would like more help, you will have to private message me. I do not mind helping, but I'm sick of having to defend basic facts just to get someone on the right path.
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
LookN2research...A true draw 145w LED panel will not put out the same light as a 1000w HPS,it would need to be 9-10 times more efficient than the HPS for that to occur...and in lumens per watt LED is actually lower than HPS, but higher than MH if I remember correctly.
A 145w LED panel will not produce vaguely near what a 1000w HPS will...even with it's spectral advantages.
A 145w LED panel will not produce vaguely near what a 1000w HPS will...even with it's spectral advantages.
curly604
Well-Known Member
thank you rockin kitten man/viru , soooooo goddamn true , and from you herekin 
i thought your led hate days were over! ..... btw i havn't seen ya over on an even better site than this ...... you know what im talking about .......
also herekin alot of people i have seen running led's have been hitting close to the 1 gpw mark ..... again i wont get into how this is not a good measurement but still cant ignore good numbers .
i thought your led hate days were over! ..... btw i havn't seen ya over on an even better site than this ...... you know what im talking about .......also herekin alot of people i have seen running led's have been hitting close to the 1 gpw mark ..... again i wont get into how this is not a good measurement but still cant ignore good numbers .
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
I aint hating and I didnt say you couldnt grow with them, but basically the only tangible advantage to LED's is lower heat...thats the simple fact.
If you wanna grow weed without producing lots of heat, buy LED's...for any other scenario HID will do the same/outperform LED's...and the dude comparing a 145w panel to a 1000w HPS needs to put the bong down in fairness, they dont produce the same lumens, not even vaguely near it (even tho lumens is a stupid way of measuring light output for growing).
The different coloured diodes...most LED panels made by proper companies only have 2 colours of diodes...and arguibly considering we dont have an actual cannabis PAR scale the HID bulbs produce a more "full" spectrum between MH and HPS.
Changing bulbs...I can get 6-10 bulbs + ballast for less than the equivilent LED.
Come on guys, misrepresenting the facts damages LED's more than anyone bashing them...
If you wanna grow weed without producing lots of heat, buy LED's...for any other scenario HID will do the same/outperform LED's...and the dude comparing a 145w panel to a 1000w HPS needs to put the bong down in fairness, they dont produce the same lumens, not even vaguely near it (even tho lumens is a stupid way of measuring light output for growing).
The different coloured diodes...most LED panels made by proper companies only have 2 colours of diodes...and arguibly considering we dont have an actual cannabis PAR scale the HID bulbs produce a more "full" spectrum between MH and HPS.
Changing bulbs...I can get 6-10 bulbs + ballast for less than the equivilent LED.
Come on guys, misrepresenting the facts damages LED's more than anyone bashing them...
curly604
Well-Known Member
hahahahah just joshin with ya bro , ya i agree that people should fuck off with the false claims, but i believe there are a few more advantages with led's than just heat. ill start with that ya you got less heat for sure but you also dont gotta go and buy big ass expensive a/c units to cool your shit. also most companies these days use more than 2 spectrum's ...... mine has 8 
thats another big advantage there no limit to how many colors you can use. and finally some of these lights (if you find the right ones) can produce a gram per watt no problem hard for most hps growers to say that, and if you really got into it and looked at the gram per kilowatt used thats where you see the led's take the lead big time. watt for watt ya your using the same electricity but watt for watt with the rite panel i bet i could out perform an hps setup. if most people are pulling a P with there 1000w hps i bet i could do that with a 500 or 600w led unit ...... again not trying to make this into a pissing contest but just comparing the abilities of each light.
thats another big advantage there no limit to how many colors you can use. and finally some of these lights (if you find the right ones) can produce a gram per watt no problem hard for most hps growers to say that, and if you really got into it and looked at the gram per kilowatt used thats where you see the led's take the lead big time. watt for watt ya your using the same electricity but watt for watt with the rite panel i bet i could out perform an hps setup. if most people are pulling a P with there 1000w hps i bet i could do that with a 500 or 600w led unit ...... again not trying to make this into a pissing contest but just comparing the abilities of each light.
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
Care for a 600w grow-off against HPS? 
I live in a cool climate with aircooled lights... for people like me LED is no real advantage other than loosing the cooltubes (2 lights powered by 2 x 27w inline fans...which also extract the air from the rooms (seperate veg and flower) through a carbon filter... not exactly noticible electricity consumption considering LED users need to extract anyways). And the "spectrum advantages" are questionable except for percieved differences until a proper Cannabis PAR spectrum is established...which its not yet
Its all in good fun, its a debate, nothing personal...I still think you cool bro
I live in a cool climate with aircooled lights... for people like me LED is no real advantage other than loosing the cooltubes (2 lights powered by 2 x 27w inline fans...which also extract the air from the rooms (seperate veg and flower) through a carbon filter... not exactly noticible electricity consumption considering LED users need to extract anyways). And the "spectrum advantages" are questionable except for percieved differences until a proper Cannabis PAR spectrum is established...which its not yet Its all in good fun, its a debate, nothing personal...I still think you cool bro
puffenuff
Well-Known Member
I think that's totally doable since I consistently get a 1/4 pound off 180w.
Da.Midnight.Toker
Member
Hey peeps help needed. How many watts led for just 2 plants?
LookN2Research
Member
I Never mentioned or would dream that 145W draw would equal 1,000W. It is compared to a 240W HPS. Now, if I wanted to make a claim then there was a study with 660W of LED bringing in exactly 6% less yield than a 1,000W HPS. That was 2 500W (330 Watt Draw) panels.
LookN2Research
Member
"I aint hating and I didn't say you couldn't grow with them, but basically the only tangible advantage to LED's is lower heat...that's the simple fact"
You just completely contradicted yourself. You aren't saying they wont grow, but the fact is they are only good for low heat?
Oh, and yes, a 240W LED does in FACT show on a LUX meter the same and more lumens than a 150,000 Lumen 1,000W Digilux because it uses the LED's in the BIG BOYS. It DOES NOT have the "Coverage". You have never tested output with an LED unit have you?
Again, you will need 660 Watts of LED (and that's draw with 18 fans) you will in fact yield 6% less than a 1,000 Watt 150,000 Lumen HPS. These are 2011 model panels that now incorporate UVB which MH & HPS do not. Both a new veg and the bloom only panels have UVB. There are MANY hours you would need to research before posting.
Oh, (I just keep on forgetting stuff). I was talking about 1,000W and you own a 600W and how much you draw from the wall "is not much" because of the low heat in your area. Okay, your Bulb is 600W. Your Ballast pulls more than both of your fans in conjunction & then add in your fans and you are pulling more wattage than the 660W draw that was tested against the 1,000 HPS with the 6% size reduction but around 20% more crystal production.
Do a side by side with just 330W of LED (1X 500W considered panel in LED speak) against your 600W HPS (or should I say a draw of 700W+?) and lets say you will obviously not even have the LED advertising to beat your HPS. So, comparing 500W to 600W would reduce your size 21%, but you would (again) have 20+% more Trichomes (the medicine in the plant). So, do that side by side, and then take 1/4 Ounce and grind it upside down so it doesn't fall through the holes. Only twist it 2 to 3 turn to each direction and leave upside down in the freezer for 14 minutes. Take it out and grind it the rest of the way while upside down and then turn it on its bottom to knock the leaves & trichs down to the grate at the bottom. Hit it on the floor about 120 times (allowing gravity to drop only the trich's in the bottom of the grinder.
Now, take 2 of the same size medicine bottle and weigh them and 0 out your scaled. Take a funnel and drop the trichs down in there from your HPS 600W, and then your 500W LED (330W Draw), and the weight of actual GOODS in the bud should come out to exactly 6% less actual intensity than what you are running to draw 700+ from the wall.
In other words, you would only have 6% less med's out of 330W, but with the new model you may get more than the average 20% increase in Trichs and may beat out your HPS altogether. I've seen people test Advanced Nutrients and dog it because they didn't notice much size difference between another fertilization method they've been using for a year. Well, no one seems to understand that it is the TRICHOMES that medicate, and not the SIZE of the flower. If he did the same test with freezing the trichs and measuring he would see a % difference even if they were EXACT weight flowers before seeing how much weight he had in actual medicine inside each flower. Such a simple test that no one wants to do.
If you grow in an Air-Pot (NOT Smart Pots) it is averaged a 15% increase in yield because it stops root circling. Don't get me started on scientifics and facts to explain every single thing I just told you, please. Do some Google/Yahooíng.
So, if you are growing in a regular container and swapped to the 330W LED & use Air-Pots and increase your yield by 15% you would almost identically weigh out to what your 600W does, BUT, remember the extra Trichs and resin from the LED would make it far superior. This could not be said about LED's a year ago. If you simply want to stick with HPS go for it, but I've seen the outcome of a friends liquid cooled 1,000W dropped 5X closer (because of its cool to the touch) & it isnt going to really get better than what you got by to 1,000 unless you want more coverage. Of course with MH/HPS being Sphyrical the HID's arent going to give any direct beam of their lumen rating. About 30% of the light you recieve is all watered down relection from Mylar, and thats not to mention the 87% of unuseable light from both MH & HPS that is documented all over the internet like glue. Anyone can post those articles, and not 1 article goes against this fact. Put 97% reflective Mylar in an LED unit and I bet you would make up that 6% difference right there. The are running much less reflective Mylar in the Black Star LED's and every LED unit for that matter. You can then surround your LED with 97% reflectivity & shape it how you want (while measuring lumens and side light hitting by not allowing the LED's wider angles, and wider degree LED's get out of range, and force them back down, and to the sides, and who knows.... You may kill a liquid cooled 1,000W Digilix at 5X closer distance than conventional possibilities, and to run that liquid cooled takes 1,000W Bulb+over a 100+W Draw from the ballast+2X 90 Watt water pumps (one for water chiller and 1 for the fixture) + 460+W Water Chiller+ a Vornado fan on the radiator on the chiller and you'd be quite impressed to see more trich's coming from 330W opposed to 1,900 Watts Minimum to run a water cooled 1,000 that makes majorly better outcomes than a standard HID by being able to basically sit on a plant.
I can write a book. This is a short and sweet explanation without getting scientific.