HolyGhost23
Well-Known Member
changed my avatar JSUK.. it was hitler picking up and dropping a watermelon.. but i guess the days where gif images worked is over
LED LIGHTS THE ACTUAL TRUTH!
- Thread starter HolyGhost23
- Start date
Chronikool
Well-Known Member
HolyGhost23
Well-Known Member
im not sure as to what your referring to? is there a link in forum you could post? and im not trying to compare a cheap LED to a so called "professional" LED set up.. what id like to find is a cost effective way to do a closet grow and as far as I see the lights ive picked are best bang for the buck.. agian IF THERE IS A BETTER CHOICE THAT IS CHEAPER PLEASE POST A LINK!
Chronikool
Well-Known Member
A $40 LED (and driver and 'heatsink') getting 1 gram per watt....then yes that will be 'effective'....you will also be the 1st to achieve this.....
gk skunky
Well-Known Member
No nothing cheaper. About the only thing that chip is going to be good for is to pratice your soldering and build skills. Yes there are multiple DIY threads in this section. A couple on the first 3 pages.
gk skunky
Well-Known Member
HG here take a look through these.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/bridgelux-vero-29-led-test.702193/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/diy-led-grow.738671/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/another-cree-cxa3070-diy-thread.824364/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/diy-led-cree-cxa3070.789575/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/thinking-of-a-new-light.822679/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/bridgelux-vero-29-led-test.702193/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/diy-led-grow.738671/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/another-cree-cxa3070-diy-thread.824364/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/diy-led-cree-cxa3070.789575/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/thinking-of-a-new-light.822679/
HolyGhost23
Well-Known Member
im not going to get into how good my soldering skills are.. but to put it into aspect, i use to have to solder my ram onto my mobo to upgrade it (hints at age)
are you saying that because these chips will blow or the light output sucks? also I was thinking of just getting 3 of them soldering them to a frame and using a CPU fan heatsink to cool the chips. if that wont work i have a couple water blocks i could use to cool those bitches
SupraSPL
Well-Known Member
The light you are looking at admits it is only 80lm/W in the 3000K. If you build your own you can get 128lm/W and the light will last indefinitely with no lumen depreciation.
CXA3070 $45
1.4A driver $11
fan/heatsink $10
total $66 for 52W
It may seem like we are just spending huge piles of cash on fancy LEDs but in truth the diy LED guys that are running at 1.4A are getting the best bang for the buck possible.
CXA3070 $45
1.4A driver $11
fan/heatsink $10
total $66 for 52W
It may seem like we are just spending huge piles of cash on fancy LEDs but in truth the diy LED guys that are running at 1.4A are getting the best bang for the buck possible.
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
HG23 ...Pay attention to what Supra tells you here ....Words of wisdom ...
Sativied
Well-Known Member
You seem to have misunderstood, heat from a HPS is not a challenge but both an advantage and a necessity to grow in the dutch climate most of the year (4 out 5 cycles). It allows me to keep my full spectrum HPS at an ideal distance providing more than enough light on a maximum surface while achieving an optimal temp as a bonus, without any form of additional heating required. We rarely use cool tubes. With LED it requires additional heating most of the year which is expensive and requires additional space (a rare commodity sort of speak). 75% of the police detectives and 50% of the entire force here are working are focused on raiding grows, in other words stealth is a major factor here. One of the things that gives growers away is the use of electricity and scanning (even from choppers and drones) for what they refer to as heat lamps (HPS bulbs shows up very clearly in attics etc). If LED were a viable technology in NL to grow top quality+quantity mj we'd be all over it. If I were in Spain I'd surely give it a try, but again in the Netherlands LED just isn't relevant for commercial quantity growers/coffeeshop suppliers (google images search for 'hennepkwekerij' to see what pro grows look like here).
And no, that 50% is simply not true. Clearly you guys haven't measured it and there's some wishful-thinking involved. The facts are quite easy to find. Here's an example from a more reliable source: http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/application_areas/horticultural/ See "Efficiency of LED toplighting system vs HPS systems" and that's in a greenhouse, in a closet or tent or room with as I mentioned earlier a quality reflector hood and proper reflection the efficiency of HPS is over 80%.
If LED were half as good as some people claim LED sellers wouldn't have to make up such bogus claims. If LED were as good as some people claim we would have solved a lot of energy, food and economic problems.
Dutch grow closets/rooms/tents are all very similar based on a tried and proven design where efficiency (gpw on a given limited space) means everything. A HPS is key to that design and you can't replace just that item without completely redesigning the rest of the setup, in particular in terms of heating. Cold and humidity (not just from transpiration) is the real challenge here, heat is only a challenge 3 months a year and that's stretching it.
From that same link, advantages of LED:
"Less heat radiation
LED lighting produces significantly less heat than
conventional HPS lamps, so you can control your
greenhouse climate more accurately. The convection
heat that is still being produced can often help to save
on your gas* bill. Less heat also means you can use light
more effectively, for example by increasing light level
extending lighting periods, or by using light on warmer
days without having to ventilate. Less heat also means
you can place the light source closer to your plants,
reducing light loss – so close in fact that you can now
use toplighting even in low-ceiling greenhouses."
*I pay roughly 4 times as much on gas as on electricity (total for home). See my point?
As I wrote in my other post:
It would require the opposite of a cooltube sort of, e.g. somehow use the heat from the LED device to warm up the air that is sucked in through the intake at the bottom of the grow closet/tent. Which obviously isn't going to work well. That bold part isn't going to work in a typical setup unless I would turn off the exhaust, killing another essential item in the interconnected setup leading to far less CO2, more humidity and less temp control (I control the temp with a thermostat on my exhaust...).
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HolyGhost23
Well-Known Member
so after 130 some odd reply and a whole bunch of pissing around.. the final answer you guys can give me.. is im still right about what i said?.. my option is the cheapest most viable option for someone.. (who is not technically inclined).. and even then its still more expensive.... it seems like there are still a few good people on here though and not just a bunch of small penises trying to win an argument on a forum.. but i am ashamed of most of you.. bashing me and telling me down.. when you couldn't even come up with a better answer.. and then supra comes in and says even doing it himself cost 66 bucks... technically my option is still cheaper. though maybe not as efficient as the set up above
PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
You seem to have misunderstood, heat from a HPS is not a challenge but both an advantage and a necessity to grow in the dutch climate most of the year (4 out 5 cycles). It allows me to keep my full spectrum HPS at an ideal distance providing more than enough light on a maximum surface while achieving an optimal temp as a bonus, without any form of additional heating required. We rarely use cool tubes. With LED it requires additional heating most of the year which is expensive and requires additional space (a rare commodity sort of speak). 75% of the police detectives and 50% of the entire force here are working are focused on raiding grows, in other words stealth is a major factor here. One of the things that gives growers away is the use of electricity and scanning (even from choppers and drones) for what they refer to as heat lamps (HPS bulbs shows up very clearly in attics etc). If LED were a viable technology in NL to grow top quality+quantity mj we'd be all over it. If I were in Spain I'd surely give it a try, but again in the Netherlands LED just isn't relevant for commercial quantity growers/coffeeshop suppliers (google images search for 'hennepkwekerij' to see what pro grows look like here).
And no, that 50% is simply not true. Clearly you guys haven't measured it and there's some wishful-thinking involved. The facts are quite easy to find. Here's an example from a more reliable source: http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/application_areas/horticultural/ See "Efficiency of LED toplighting system vs HPS systems" and that's in a greenhouse, in a closet or tent or room with as I mentioned earlier a quality reflector hood and proper reflection the efficiency of HPS is over 80%.
If LED were half as good as some people claim LED sellers wouldn't have to make up such bogus claims. If LED were as good as some people claim we would have solved a lot of energy, food and economic problems.
Dutch grow closets/rooms/tents are all very similar based on a tried and proven design where efficiency (gpw on a given limited space) means everything. A HPS is key to that design and you can't replace just that item without completely redesigning the rest of the setup, in particular in terms of heating. Cold and humidity (not just from transpiration) is the real challenge here, heat is only a challenge 3 months a year and that's stretching it.
From that same link, advantages of LED:
"Less heat radiation
LED lighting produces significantly less heat than
conventional HPS lamps, so you can control your
greenhouse climate more accurately. The convection
heat that is still being produced can often help to save
on your gas* bill. Less heat also means you can use light
more effectively, for example by increasing light level
extending lighting periods, or by using light on warmer
days without having to ventilate. Less heat also means
you can place the light source closer to your plants,
reducing light loss – so close in fact that you can now
use toplighting even in low-ceiling greenhouses."
*I pay roughly 4 times as much on gas as on electricity (total for home). See my point?
As I wrote in my other post:
It would require the opposite of a cooltube sort of, e.g. somehow use the heat from the LED device to warm up the air that is sucked in through the intake at the bottom of the grow closet/tent. Which obviously isn't going to work well. That bold part isn't going to work in a typical setup unless I would turn off the exhaust, killing another essential item in the interconnected setup leading to far less CO2, more humidity and less temp control (I control the temp with a thermostat on my exhaust...).
You are correct sir, and in your part of the world I would also stick to HPS for now
..........obviously leds are not for everyone. Now intra-canopy led applications are still "useful" for the dutch greenhouses IMO.And their is a gross exaggeration on HID reflector losses in here by some, quality reflector has less than 10% when clean/new.
SupraSPL
Well-Known Member
HolyGhost, if you went with the $40 setup, you would get 4000 lumens (allegedly) for $40. So that is 100lumens/$ initially (it may fade fast due to heat or even burn out). Also, I am suspicious whether it will actually output 4000 lumens initially, we have not seen a reliable spec sheet.
If you go with the $66 Cree setup, you get 6656 lumens (guaranteed minimum) so that is also 100lumens/$. It will last indefinitely and will not fade. It will also save some $ in your electric bill.
If you go with the $66 Cree setup, you get 6656 lumens (guaranteed minimum) so that is also 100lumens/$. It will last indefinitely and will not fade. It will also save some $ in your electric bill.
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SupraSPL
Well-Known Member
Sativied, first of all I appreciate your thoughtful and polite response, this is a good discussion.
I am a huge fan of winter growing. The dry cold air is where its at and it dries out even more when it comes in and warms up. I am suggesting that you can have your cake and eat it. I never use supplemental heat, everyone knows me as an efficiency hall monitor. You can use flip flop rooms so there are lights on 24/7 to keep temps stable. Reduce ventilation and pack in a ton of light. Add insulation if necessary.
I agree, I estimate typical HPS reflector losses to be 20-25%.
I completely agree with that approach. Top quality LED can currently double and eventually will be able to triple the HPS grams/Watt. So eventually all systems will be adapted to accommodate that.
HolyGhost23
Well-Known Member
I would love to build my own lights. except for a couple things. I live in northern Canada. where its so cold you could live in an igloo for 8 months out of the year . It would a 4 hour drive to find a weller soldering gun and that's a maybe.. so if you know of a website that ships to Canada for those parts id be glad to take a look.
spazatak
Well-Known Member
you haven't proven you are right as you have no documentation of your grows with this technique of using cheap lights.... so please before you sprout of information like you invented the wheel have something to back it up...
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Yeah me too, I switch day and night during the winter so the light is on at night and the room enjoys some heating during the day when I'm home. However, unfortunately 'winter' is mostly autumn weather, and so is spring, as in rainy/humid and cold, not so often actually freezing and dry. Reducing ventilation, as I mentioned in my previous post isn't a solution but a downside reducing the efficiency of the entire (typical) setup. Insulation is already required to contain some of the warmth created during light on periods and flip-flopping rooms isn't a real solution either if you have a limited space of 1 tent/closet/room. It's not like people haven't tried here, the benefits are obvious, the flip-sides are however not solved by workarounds.
Mind you I specifically said 'on a given limited space' which is key, and not as much as the 'per watt'. It all starts with a limited amount of grow space, ie. what really matters is what a grower can pull from a certain area. "Top quality LED can currently double [...] the HPS grams/Watt" may be true but it does so largely by lowering the amount of wattage and/or increasing the grow space and not by increasing the nett yield on the initial space (you can only pack so many plants/bud sites in a space, eventually the depth of light penetration is more important to push yields to the absolute max). Additionally, that top quality LED won't produce top results unless the circumstances (the rest of the setup/environment) is ideal as well. In a typical dutch grow room that would require climate control including supplementing CO2 (if the exhaust needs to be reduced, it actually will automatically in most cases without the heat from the HPS so not even a choice) and supplemental heating which puts a large dent in any electricity savings from using led.
From time to time I read a few discussion about LED and the arguments for and against haven't really changed much over the years. There's always a catch when it comes to LED, while HPS just works and fits keeping it simple. Show me a typical 4x4' grow that yields 18-20 oz 4 to 5 times a year or basically in every season with an actually decrease of grow -cost $/gram (I don't even care about the initial investment of the LEDs) and I will seriously start considering switching to LED. One of the thing that keeps me interested is being able to build a closet of 2x8' instead of 4x4', a long double wall instead of closet, adding to the stealth factor. And yes, "eventually"... which comes down to the same old "LED is the future", a fact I've been hearing/reading for many years
SupraSPL
Well-Known Member
When I switched from 2400W HPS (1200/1200 flip flop) to 1000W LED (500/500 flip flop), I reduced my ventilation and increased my yields. I was using a pair of Max Fan 6" running on medium speed (140W total). Now I use just one fan on low speed (60W). During the warm season I will increase the ventilation as needed.
That sucks that so much of the season is high humidity, but HPS is not going to help with that either and it actually increases transpiration putting more water in the air. And of course during lights out the true humidity levels will set in regardless of which light is used.
Years ago I grew in a uninsulated attic space during the winter. I built a box out of mylar coated foam from home depot duct taped together and ventilated with a bath fan. The box was about 2X3' and 4' tall. I fit 120W of LED in there and of course supplemental heat is not in my vocabulary. It worked out great and I got .8-1 gr/W using old LED tech (26% efficient).
That sucks that so much of the season is high humidity, but HPS is not going to help with that either and it actually increases transpiration putting more water in the air. And of course during lights out the true humidity levels will set in regardless of which light is used.
Years ago I grew in a uninsulated attic space during the winter. I built a box out of mylar coated foam from home depot duct taped together and ventilated with a bath fan. The box was about 2X3' and 4' tall. I fit 120W of LED in there and of course supplemental heat is not in my vocabulary. It worked out great and I got .8-1 gr/W using old LED tech (26% efficient).
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SupraSPL
Well-Known Member
Regarding limited space, LED is the best choice for that situation for several reasons. The 600/1000HPS is the most efficient HPS but the small HPS bulbs can't match it. So if your space is small enough that you can't fit a 600, LED is the only thing that can match or exceed those levels of efficiency, and on any scale you require.
LED is the only technology that can create more light than 1000W HPS in a given space. So if you are thinking of throwing efficiency out the window and trying to produce the maximum in a given space, LED can produce more than HPS. Jbone is considering a simple and cost effective design that uses 832W of 3000K COB LED in a 4X4 space. That will provide a huge increase in light in the canopy versus a 1000 HPS.
Another reason LED is the best option for a limited space is - it uses vertical space more efficiently. The LEDs can be as close as 6" to the canopy and they have a slim vertical profile. So you could use LED in a shelving situation to really maximize a space.
For example, I stack vegging and cloning boxes. My cloning box uses a Cree XML2 4500K U2 that is running at 300mA <1W and is creating 175 lumens/W. That is about 55% efficient and it is running so cool that it will last indefinitely without lumen depreciation (my lifetime).
LED is the only technology that can create more light than 1000W HPS in a given space. So if you are thinking of throwing efficiency out the window and trying to produce the maximum in a given space, LED can produce more than HPS. Jbone is considering a simple and cost effective design that uses 832W of 3000K COB LED in a 4X4 space. That will provide a huge increase in light in the canopy versus a 1000 HPS.
Another reason LED is the best option for a limited space is - it uses vertical space more efficiently. The LEDs can be as close as 6" to the canopy and they have a slim vertical profile. So you could use LED in a shelving situation to really maximize a space.
For example, I stack vegging and cloning boxes. My cloning box uses a Cree XML2 4500K U2 that is running at 300mA <1W and is creating 175 lumens/W. That is about 55% efficient and it is running so cool that it will last indefinitely without lumen depreciation (my lifetime).