Justified?

Keenly2 said:

i see you guys getting all pissed off about coming here illegally blah blah blah, its so ridiculous because sure you guys bitch at THEM for coming here


but i dont see anyone bitching at the government? you know the ones whos responsibility it is to uphold these laws?


this is what they WANT, the government wants mexicans to come into the united states, and so do the lobbying corporations


shooting illegals is NOT the right way to go about this.... you guys are pissed off at the wrong people

Click to expand...

great points!

hopefully civility will return to this thread, the debate really is interesting. so interesting i have switched sides once already and maybe more. evolving views is much preferrable to being fixed in one way of thinking in my opinion.

now, let's be clear about two things: rocks CAN kill. in this instance, it would be utterly improbable as the officer had a helmet on and likely a kevlar vest. the deceased was only 15 years old and a fair distance away. also, back up BP was literally 12 seconds away...watch the video and count. now despite all this, i feel the shooting was justifiable yet still completely horrific. i would want the officer to be fired dishonorably (no severance, no pension, nothing...canned) because we do not need people who shoot to kill when their lives are not REALLY and TRULY in danger.

UncleBuck said:

great points!

hopefully civility will return to this thread, the debate really is interesting. so interesting i have switched sides once already and maybe more. evolving views is much preferrable to being fixed in one way of thinking in my opinion.

now, let's be clear about two things: rocks CAN kill. in this instance, it would be utterly improbable as the officer had a helmet on and likely a kevlar vest. the deceased was only 15 years old and a fair distance away. also, back up BP was literally 12 seconds away...watch the video and count. now despite all this, i feel the shooting was justifiable yet still completely horrific. i would want the officer to be fired dishonorably (no severance, no pension, nothing...canned) because we do not need people who shoot to kill when their lives are not REALLY and TRULY in danger.

Click to expand...

You feel the shooting was justifiable ...and think the officer should be canned...clear as mud

clear as mud indeed! lol

what i am saying is that while precedent supported him 'firing in self defense' because some 15 year old was lobbing rocks from 50+ feet away, i don't want anyone so trigger happy entrusted with that kind of authority. it is the delicate balance between not tying the hands of the BP agents, while calling for a higher standard in the people they hire.

i would also like to see them have a gun with rubber bullets for borderline cases like this. at least that is clear enough

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/jun/11/wikileaks-founder-assange-pentagon-manning

Speaking of trigger happy ill placed armed authority

Fullmoon kid said:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/jun/11/wikileaks-founder-assange-pentagon-manning

Speaking of trigger happy ill placed armed authority

Click to expand...

I don't know - I'm still of the mind that if you lob rocks at a man with a gun, you are taking your life in your own hands.
The outcome is not pretty, but he had to fucking know what the consequences could be.

Fullmoon kid said:

Cant help but notice , surely the lesson here to be learned at Kent state and the many places you cite is Do not screw with armed guards ?

Click to expand...

Except half of the people killed at Kent state were just students trying to get to the next class. You see thats what happens when you just unleash full fire into the wide open, innocent people always get killed. How would you feel if your son was mowed down by some nat guardsmans m-16 rifle, just because he was late getting to class?

Maybe thats your kid laying down there? It sure as hell was someones.



Lets try to be a bit more sensitive in the future eh?

All peace officers are trained to use restraint in the dealings with others. Obviously some people cannot police themselves. Not everyone can be Sheriff Andy Taylor, but the world would probably be a better place if people tried.

How big were the rocks this kid was throwing? I could see if he was right on top of the agent with a brick or something, but a 1/2 ounce rock isnt going to hurt much especially if its thrown by hand. I could see if the kid had a sling and was using lead, but were talking little rocks. Excessive use of force!

NoDrama said:

All peace officers are trained to use restraint in the dealings with others. Obviously some people cannot police themselves. Not everyone can be Sheriff Andy Taylor, but the world would probably be a better place if people tried.

How big were the rocks this kid was throwing? I could see if he was right on top of the agent with a brick or something, but a 1/2 ounce rock isnt going to hurt much especially if its thrown by hand. I could see if the kid had a sling and was using lead, but were talking little rocks. Excessive use of force!

Click to expand...

from what i read in the comments on this video, they were bricks or similar sized stones. i'm not sure how a 15 year old could lob those with the necessary force to even injure at the distance he was at.

plus, i looked for shadows or rocks landing in that grainy footage and could not find it, just birds. and i never saw one of their arms recoiled in a throwing motion.

but i do speak spanish and the eyewitnesses said 'no mas tirando piedras' and similar shit (only throwing rocks). so likely, there was some rock throwing.

i care about them as much as they care about me, so let the bodies hit the floor

Bluto said:

i care about them as much as they care about me, so let the bodies hit the floor

Click to expand...

well said.

UncleBuck said:

clear as mud indeed! lol

what i am saying is that while precedent supported him 'firing in self defense' because some 15 year old was lobbing rocks from 50+ feet away, i don't want anyone so trigger happy entrusted with that kind of authority. it is the delicate balance between not tying the hands of the BP agents, while calling for a higher standard in the people they hire.

i would also like to see them have a gun with rubber bullets for borderline cases like this. at least that is clear enough

Click to expand...

The rubber bullets are a good idea except they are usually designed for shotguns. Most cops leave those in their vehicles unless they are expecting trouble. They certainly aren't going to load their service pistols with rubber bullets. Even if they carried a magazine filled with rubber bullets that they could switch to when needed, they would still have to stop, clear the round out of the chamber, pull the magazine out, reload the other mag, and chamber a rubber bullet. Doesn't sound all that difficult, but there are a lot of things that could go wrong in those few seconds. The service pistol is off limits. It's doubtful that any cop is going to carry and/or use rubber bullets with the service pistol. Tazers work well but only have a limited range and they are far from perfect. I think a paintball gun with OC filled balls would be about the best thing they could use in these types of instances. Still, they wouldn't be carrying the paintball guns on their person, they would have to be left in the car. I don't think there is a perfect solution but I do agree that cops should have some better less lethal weaponry.

NoDrama said:

Except half of the people killed at Kent state were just students trying to get to the next class. You see thats what happens when you just unleash full fire into the wide open, innocent people always get killed. How would you feel if your son was mowed down by some nat guardsmans m-16 rifle, just because he was late getting to class?

Maybe thats your kid laying down there? It sure as hell was someones.

View attachment 999405

Lets try to be a bit more sensitive in the future eh?

Click to expand...

Lets try to read the thread in future eh ? I didnt cite Kent state , i replied to one of your buddies that did.

NLXSK1 said:

Yes, he is justified.

Rocks are considered lethal weapons. The border patrol agent was in a dangerous situation with many hostile people around. If he was knocked unconscious by a rock there is not telling what was going to happen.

And BTW, the kid already had 6 charges of smuggling people across the border so he was no boyscout on a field trip.

Click to expand...

lololol. i'd fuckinglove to see you in a bar fight. just pull out an uzi yeah, seems justified if everything else in the room can be classed as lethal no?

fucking pricks, they should be shot at the steak

Fullmoon kid said:

Lets try to read the thread in future eh ? I didnt cite Kent state , i replied to one of your buddies that did.

Click to expand...

No, no you didn't. You blamed the kids at Kent state for their actions. How is walking across the street considered screwing with armed guards? Should the police shoot you when you cross the street and then call it justified?

Keenly2 said:

and who are you to establish who is equal and who is not?

i can think of many different occasions in which americans threw rocks at guards and were shot

kent state was already mentioned



are they not equal to?


BP should not have been a pussy and just let it go

but instead he felt the need to prove his manhood and shoot some one down when there was no real threat to his life


how fucking hard would it have been to, i dont know, MOVE

Click to expand...

NoDrama said:

No, no you didn't. You blamed the kids at Kent state for their actions. How is walking across the street considered screwing with armed guards? Should the police shoot you when you cross the street and then call it justified?

Click to expand...

I didnt realise you dont read English.

NoDrama said:

All peace officers are trained to use restraint in the dealings with others. Obviously some people cannot police themselves. Not everyone can be Sheriff Andy Taylor, but the world would probably be a better place if people tried.

How big were the rocks this kid was throwing? I could see if he was right on top of the agent with a brick or something, but a 1/2 ounce rock isnt going to hurt much especially if its thrown by hand. I could see if the kid had a sling and was using lead, but were talking little rocks. Excessive use of force!

Click to expand...

Yes they are supposed to use restraint but we're finding out more and more that the police have a strong tendency to abuse their power at some point. Cop goes to work, his wife just left him, he can't afford his mortgage anymore and he's 3 months behind on his car payment. That's a bad day about to get a whole lot worse! Look at the types of people who USUALLY become cops. IME they are usually bullies or little guys with a short man complex. Tiny dicks make big pricks! Most of the guys I went to school with who became cops were assholes in high school. They were bullies or were bullied themselves. Why would someone want to be a cop in the first place? Most people hate them. They don't make a whole lot of money. Cops have a higher rate of divorce, alcoholism, drug abuse, and they are more likely to be killed on the job than most. Why would someone want to do that? To protect and serve? Perhaps, but I think it all boils down to a power thing. You couldn't pay me enough to be a cop!

i like how nobody cares about what the kid should NOT have done. it's all on the cop, eh?



where were that kids parents? what kind of children are they raising? these are the people we want living among us?

fdd2blk said:

i like how nobody cares about what the kid should NOT have done. it's all on the cop, eh?



where were that kids parents? what kind of children are they raising? these are the people we want living among us?

Click to expand...

On the contrary i think , there have been those who voiced opinion along the lines of dont take rocks to a gun fight.Personally , on reflection , at age 15 i cant say throwing rocks at armed guards was top of my list in pastimes.

Fullmoon kid said:

On the contrary i think , there have been those who voiced opinion along the lines of dont take rocks to a gun fight.Personally , on reflection , at age 15 i cant say throwing rocks at armed guards was top of my list in pastimes.

Click to expand...

the kid is 15, he shouldn't be at a fight period. my kid is 15 and is in his room playing right now. who lets there kids go to rock fights? where is this kids dad? probably picking strawberries in ventura county.

fdd2blk said:

the kid is 15, he shouldn't be at a fight period. my kid is 15 and is in his room playing right now. who lets there kids go to rock fights? where is this kids dad? probably picking strawberries in ventura county.

Click to expand...

Heres the thing , on every post the "kid" is emphasised , i was in my first job at 15 having left school that year.Different countries,different enviroments,different cultures and that holds true the world over.Not every 15 year old is a kid , far from it.