Jesus Crucified For Blasphemy Or Treason?

This is a carry over from another thread in politics.

JVS is of the opinion that Christ was crucified by the Romans for treason.

I maintain that the Romans crucified Christ for blasphemy at the behest of the Sanhedrin, because of the way Roman rule worked with local governments of its conquered.

what... huh? said:

See what I mean?

The roman authority was able to keep its conquered lands by leaving the governing bodies in place, (the Sanhedrin in the case of the Jews) but holding ultimate authority over them. The Jews cried for Him to be crucified for blasphemy, claiming to be the "king of the Jews"... because His bloodline is that of God.

Luke 22
70Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
71And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.


Luke 23
1And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.
2And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.
3And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it.
4Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man.

That is particularly important, as Pilot did not find fault with the claim that he forbade tribute to Caesar... and his corruption of the people was spreading the Gospel... and of course being the son of God... which is what they were pissed about... and why he was killed.

5And they were the more fierce, saying, He stirreth up the people, teaching throughout all Jewry, beginning from Galilee to this place.



20Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them.
21But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
22And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.
23And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed.
24And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required.



35And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
36And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,
37And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.


Treason:
1. betrayal of country: a violation of the allegiance owed by somebody to his or her own country, e.g. by aiding an enemy.

Blasphemy:
1. a : the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God b : the act of claiming the attributes of deity.

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To which he replied:

PVS said:

it would have been an embarrassing and insulting affront on the roman empire to enforce jewish scripture in any way.
the charge related to jesus claiming himself 'king of the jews', jews who were governed by rome. therefore it could be
translated to high treason. that was the charge. declaring himself king of anyone or anything on roman territory.

OF COURSE there were ulterior motives but the official charge would never have been blasphemy. this was a roman
state execution based on roman law.

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Now that we are all caught up.

Luke 22
70Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
71And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.

Further witness to what crime? Being the Son of God...

2And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.

Now... not only did Jesus and His disciples pay their taxes... but He never claimed to be an earthly king.

Pilot found no fault with these charges and wanted to let him go. They were trying to find a vested interest in Rome executing Him. It was only under great protest of the crime of blasphemy that he submitted to THEIR LAW.


A brief history of the Roman empire and authority.

How Rome was able to conquer and control so much of the globe was because of a brilliant strategy, which began with war, and ended with taxes. They allowed their conquered people to maintain their own governments, religions, and activities wherever they went, to prevent civil unrest... leaving outposts containing small groups of people who oversaw the ruling bodies.

People were only forced to pay taxes, and not offend Caesar. Outside of that, things ran pretty much as they had before they arrived. They served as executioners and tax collectors... while keeping a watchful eye on the governments to prevent usurping Roman rule. If there were any kind of uprising, troops were brought in and the people were punished HORRIBLY... so pretty much things went smoothly. That is how they were able to rule so many for so long... it was KEY to their strategy.

The notion that it would be embarrassing to allow the religious government follow it's own law is grossly inaccurate. It was completely reversed. They ALWAYS allowed the free exercise of religion, and local tribal rule.

The Jews brought Jesus forth for blasphemy as clearly demonstrated in Acts, on THEIR legal authority... and when Pilot says... I don't understand... they try and gain support by suggesting he preached that taxes should not be payed to rome... which again... the ROMAN authority had no belief in... and had to be convinced that it was simply their way. Remember... this is the birth of the senate... of the belief that a people are best left to govern themselves.

Pilot was against the death of Jesus, but was committed to not interfering in the local religious authorities decision... so at their INSISTENCE he was put to death.

You take king to mean a territorial king... whereas the title was given because of the bloodline of God. It was blasphemy... and doing miracles and whatnot? Demonstrating the power of God?


WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITCH

BUURRRRN HIMMMMMMMM...



That is simply how Rome handled maintaining foreign authority... by giving much of it away.

"The Roman Empire encompassed a huge amount of territory, but also allowed people of many different cultures to retain their heritage into modern times. The empire helped to perpetuate the art, literature, and philosophy of the Greeks, the religious and ethical system of the Jews, the new religion of the Christians, Babylonian astronomy and astrology, and cultural elements from Persia, Egypt, and other eastern civilizations. The Romans supplied their own peculiar talents for government, law, and architecture and also spread their Latin language. In this way they created the Greco-Roman synthesis, the rich combination of cultural elements that for two millennia has shaped what we call the Western tradition."

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_1741502785/roman_empire.html

The charge of "forbidding tribute" was thrown in to try and entice Pilot to rule in their favor.. because it was his ultimate decision... and he believed in a lot of Gods... so he might not understand the offense. His Gods spawned all the time with humans... so they had to make a case because at the end of the day... it was his decision to make.

24And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required.


Not as Rome requires, not as Caesar requires, but as the Sanhedrin Priests required.



Just as a point of record, Jesus never claimed to be the Son of God either. He ALWAYS referred to Himself as the son of man.

i thought jesus was fake
like you saw him on south park

Treason:
1. betrayal of country: a violation of the allegiance owed by somebody to his or her own country, e.g. by aiding an enemy.

Blasphemy:
1. a : the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God b : the act of claiming the attributes of deity.


Pilot clearly demonstrates that Christ did not offend Rome.

Pilot clearly does not see any offense warranting death.

Pilot is clearly just keeping the peace by letting the civil authority have its way.


I mean... if you believe the bible, and know ANYTHING about the Roman empire...


The only treason he committed, was blasphemy to a religious authority.



The original statement which spawned this...

what... huh? said:

I mean... Christ Himself was crucified for blasphemy. You would think it would take you (Christians) less than 2 millennia to learn the lesson from that.

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So you guys stop cramming this shit down peoples throats, and stop being so easily offended. Nothing good comes of it. Nothing.

i shouldent post on this thread as im athiest
sooo sorry for my stupidity towards jesus...

People believe in the Bible??? Wow. You realize it's a work of fiction, right?

Your post was tl;dr... why am I posting here?

jesus was crucified for being one cool motha fucka by some haters. jesus was the kinda cat you go to the club with buy out the bar and he pays the tab, then put one to the sky of some danky

The validity of the bible/existence of God have absolutely fuck all to do with this discussion.



You can discuss Battlefield Earth without believing it is TRUE... unless you are John Travolta.

the reason jesus was crucified was blasphemy.
the official charge before the state however is another matter.

to blaspheme judaism was not a violation of roman law. to avoid causing a
piss-storm with a generally antisemetic-yet-tolerant state, jesus' declaration
that he was "king of the jews" was exploited as grounds for a charge of high
treason.

jerusalem was roman territory and rome could simply carry out a
punishment which suits those who challenge the throne. since the law
did not recognise 'king' in a strictly spiritual sense, the charge was convenient.
not only that but rome didnt have to go through the embarrassment of enforcing
law based upon hebrew scripture.

its a common practice in law: finding a charge that sticks and doesn't ruffle the wrong feathers.
think back to al capone. jailed for being a sociopathic murderer but on the charge of tax evasion.

if jeruselum truly followed its own law, and were their own executioners, why did they need pilate's
official consent? why even bother to sugar-coating and repackaging it for pilate? the threat of widespread
civil unreast was quite enough reason to let them have their way. the hebrew clergy had ALL the bargaining leverage in that deal.

pilate simply asked jesus to renounce his self proclaimed kingship, jesus refused, pilate washed his hands, etc etc

chitownsmoking said:

jesus was crucified for being one cool motha fucka by some haters. jesus was the kinda cat you go to the club with buy out the bar and he pays the tab, then put one to the sky of some danky

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Hehe, yeah, Jesus was just a regular guy that knew what was going on. He was considered a conspiracy theorist, blasphemer, traitor etc..just for telling people what was really going on.

what... huh? said:

The validity of the bible/existence of God have absolutely fuck all to do with this discussion.



You can discuss Battlefield Earth without believing it is TRUE... unless you are John Travolta.

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LMAO! I'm with you on the blasphemy thing too!

Operation 420 said:

Hehe, yeah, Jesus was just a regular guy that knew what was going on. He was considered a conspiracy theorist, blasphemer, traitor etc..just for telling people what was really going on.

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The sanhedrin wanted him dead so they accused him of blasphemy.

The Romans didn't know what to do with him, because as far as they were concerned he had committed no crime, but the sanhedrin incited the crowd, and soon they were all yelling "crucify him!"

The religious authorities of today would probably do the same thing, because they are more concerned with keeping the power they have, just as the sanhedrin was.

PVS said:

the reason jesus was crucified was blasphemy.
the official charge before the state however is another matter.

to blaspheme judaism was not a violation of roman law. to avoid causing a
piss-storm with a generally antisemetic-yet-tolerant state, jesus' declaration
that he was "king of the jews" was exploited as grounds for a charge of high
treason.

jerusalem was roman territory and rome could simply carry out a
punishment which suits those who challenge the throne. since the law
did not recognise 'king' in a strictly spiritual sense, the charge was convenient.
not only that but rome didnt have to go through the embarrassment of enforcing
law based upon hebrew scripture.

Click to expand...

Because the worst penalty ever set forth on any land was the suffering on the cross, the Jews wanted him crucified. Again, the LOCAL laws were in effect in ALL conquered territories... the reason it had to go through Roman authority, is because ROME was supreme... and, for instance, they could not have a LOCAL tax collector put to death for serving Caesar, ALL punishment and adjudication had to pass through the Roman authority. They RULED a people by allowing them to rule themselves.

It would be, as if in Iraq, we would not allow the ruling government to put to death a person whose crime was being pro-American. Nor would we let UBL pass out of custody. The law of the land was the law of the land... so long as that law did not offend Caesar. For the Jews, this also kept their hands clean, while imposing the ultimate suffering on the blasphemer.

We have, actually, and I will find... the letters between Pilot and Caesar, and Pilot and... shit... his name starts with an H... I am too drunk to look it up... because Jesus was "from" Galilee... he was temporarily turned over to him... and they demonstrate even clearer than the bible, that the charge was blasphemy.

I should have started with those... but I forgot.

Green Cross said:

The sanhedrin wanted him dead so they accused him of blasphemy.

The Romans didn't know what to do with him, because as far as they were concerned he had committed no crime, but the sanhedrin incited the crowd, and soon they were all yelling "crucify him!"

The religious authorities of today would probably do the same thing, because they are more concerned with keeping the power they have, just as the sanhedrin was.

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Ding ding... winna winna chicken dinnaaaaaaaaa.


Civil unrest was not worth the life of a random Jew who is said to have been fathered by a false God.


So be it.

the right to decide capital punishment was a matter of state.
"ius gladii" was not granted by default to local governments.
very few local rulers were granted that power, but not the jews.

*edit* or else why must the clerics demand jesus' death from pilate?
if they had the right of the sword then pilate wouldn't need to be involved.
it wasnt the hebrew clerics that desired clean hands, it was rome.

...i mean the guy literally washed his hands. jesus refused to renounce
his kingship, thus committing a blatant capital crime. pilate had no
choice at that point. at that point it would be 'for the good of rome'
to execute him or else suffer more such uprisings and new 'kings'.
at that point everyone wanted him dead except arguably pilate
and jesus' followers.

Mark 14:



60And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
61But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
64Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
65And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.





Pretty much seals it don't you think? I mean... again... your book. You think it is... inaccurate?

that was not the death sentence. read forward:

Mark 15:1 ...And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.
And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto them, Thou sayest it. And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing. And Pilate
asked him again, saying, Answerest thou nothing? behold how many things they witness against thee.

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he's pretty much telling jesus at this point that all he has to do is say "i'm not King of the Jews" and the charge is forfeit. this is the only violation which concerns him because it is a high crime before rome...

But Jesus yet answered nothing; so that Pilate marvelled

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...etc etc and barabbus gets set free...

But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?

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not "blasphemer", not "heretic", he sticks to those exact words and mentions NOTHING of hebrew law or scripture.

...So Pilate again asked them, "Then what should I do with the king of the Jews?"

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the true 'trial' for lack of a better word was pilate permitting the guards to take christ to be beaten and crucified.
THAT was the official condemnation, and what doomed jesus. HE had the right of the sword and i believe he made
it clear that his only concern was high treason, of which he was seemingly wanting to drop if jesus would have just
renounced his throne. he never once mentions heresy or blasphemy, and imho very deliberately.

Show me where the bible says He was convicted of treason... or sedition...


Because I have shown you in 3 places where it says he was committed and put to death for blasphemy.

Unless of course you think the bible is inaccurate... and your understanding of Roman history is reason enough to discount it, at least this part.

He was crusified because all throughout time government officials have had it out for pot smoking pacifists.

ok so you're just going to ignore the crux of my argument. i mean, you posted scripture
that you call 'proof' that you're right (and it proves nothing), i posted scripture which i felt
contradicted it along with roman law regarding capital punishment...and you just ignored
completely. i mean, you didnt challenge the point, you just carried on like i said nothing.

...so i guess that means we're done here and you're the winner. congratulations.

Do you remember the crux of mine? The one that plainly stated upset you?

what... huh? said:

No he wasn't. I hate arguing religion with someone who doesn't even know theirs.

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This is your religion. Not Roman history. Your religion spells out, in very plain English why Jesus was crucified. I am willing to accept your argument, and address it in full, and if I am wrong will gladly admit it... but you must first admit that you believe that you, not the bible, are correct on this matter.