January 6th hearings on Trump's failed insurrection.

subwax

subwax

Well-Known Member
Aaahh - ok - so if he carks it, Harris is president?

We would have an election here, I think. Not sure though.
 
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subwax

subwax

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I'm just trying to find out what you mean when you say Democrats are same as Republicans or as shitty as Republicans or maybe you aren't saying that?

We had four awful years with Trump. And we voted him out of office. Trump and Republicans refused to relinquish power after losing an election.

I don't see how your "both sides bad" argument hold up to those facts.
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OK - I think I see your point. I in no way think the Conservative and the Labour parties are the same thing - thats insanity to think that. They are both political parties, though, so if you dislike political parties, you'll dislike both, right? Regardless of policies or anything like that. If you don't like politic parties, you dislike them all. That is my point.


Would you think that its Trump or.the Republican party that stormed the WH? It only happens if Trump is controlling things, as I see it.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
subwax said:
OK - I think I see your point. I in no way think the Conservative and the Labour parties are the same thing - thats insanity to think that. They are both political parties, though, so if you dislike political parties, you'll dislike both, right? Regardless of policies or anything like that. If you don't like politic parties, you dislike them all. That is my point.


Would you think that its Trump or.the Republican party that stormed the WH? It only happens if Trump is controlling things, as I see it.
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I don't understand your point. "If you dislike political parties you dislike both, right?" That makes no sense. We are talking about a Republican Party that is nothing like what it was 20 years ago. January 6, 2021 shows us who they are. To vote for a Republican today is to vote for fascist overthrow of the government. Damn right I dislike the Republican party. Why would I therefore dislike a Democratic Party that opposes Trump and the Republican Party's attempt at disenfranchising the majority of voters in the US?
 
CatHedral

CatHedral

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I don't understand your point. "If you dislike political parties you dislike both, right?" That makes no sense. We are talking about a Republican Party that is nothing like what it was 20 years ago. January 6, 2021 shows us who they are. To vote for a Republican today is to vote of fascist overthrow of the government. Damn right I dislike the Republican party. Why would I therefore dislike Democratic Party that opposes Trump and the Republican Party's attempt at disenfranchising the majority of voters in the US?
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I tried. Your turn in the barrel, I guess.
 
subwax

subwax

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I don't understand your point. "If you dislike political parties you dislike both, right?" That makes no sense. We are talking about a Republican Party that is nothing like what it was 20 years ago. January 6, 2021 shows us who they are. To vote for a Republican today is to vote for fascist overthrow of the government. Damn right I dislike the Republican party. Why would I therefore dislike a Democratic Party that opposes Trump and the Republican Party's attempt at disenfranchising the majority of voters in the US?
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Try leaving parties out of it, and just think of it as politics in general. I dislike politics in general, so by proxy - I dislike all parties too, based on the fact that they are political parties.

I am no fan of football (soccer, I think you call it). I played rugby, so thats my game. Because I dont like soccer, I dont follow any soccer teams. Not. because I dislike a particular team - its just that i don't like soccer.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
subwax said:
Try leaving parties out of it, and just think of it as politics in general. I dislike politics in general, so by proxy - I dislike all parties too, based on the fact that they are political parties.

I am no fan of football (soccer, I think you call it). I played rugby, so thats my game. Because I dont like soccer, I dont follow any soccer teams. Not. because I dislike a particular team - its just that i don't like soccer.
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Fascists aren't playing a game with our country. The outcome of a rugby game is not important. Elections are important, which is why they tried to overturn it. Elections matter, which is why I consider Trump and his fascist anti-democratic Republican party that is trying to take power despite losing the election a threat.

Less than half the people in the US show up to vote, so you would probably be among the majority in the US if you don't like politics. I'm assuming your country holds free and fair elections. Do you vote?
 
CatHedral

CatHedral

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
Her duty is ceremonial and there is an heir and a couple of spares.
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However, her power, which she rarely exercises, is considerable. She has the authority and the capacity to end the sort of shenanigans we have had here. Her duty is almost entirely ceremonial because that allows her domain to practice all the squabbles that democratic government necessarily brings along.
 
subwax

subwax

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Fascists aren't playing a game with our country. The outcome of a rugby game is not important. Elections are important, which is why they tried to overturn it. Elections matter, which is why I consider Trump and his fascist anti-democratic Republican party that is trying to take power despite losing the election a threat.

Less than half the people in the US show up to vote, so you would probably be among the majority in the US if you don't like politics. I'm assuming your country holds free and fair elections. Do you vote?
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I understand - I was trying to use it as a tool to explain my position has my previous attempts have clearly failed. I am in no way comparing American politics to a game of rugby. Let's make that clear from the start.

I do vote, as I feel millions have died to give me that right. I spend a few days before the election going through the manifesto's, choosing the policies I like that will be completely ignored. i voted Lib Dem last time because they lobbied that they would get rid of IR35, and that they would look seriously into decriminalising marijuana. In the UK, its a 2 horse race, really - Conservatives and Labour. The Conservatives took us out of Europe. so they cannot get my vote. Labour took us to war with you guys on the basis on WMD's, that were never there - I cant vote for them either. So I am 2 parties down - the main ones too - so I have to pick a party that might have one or two good policies, but could also have a lot of policies I don't agree with. Such is my lot.

People do have parties that they are "married to" for life. All of Scotland are generally anti Conservatives. The South of England don't usually vote for Labour. For the most part, though, and with the notable exception of Brexit - we don't talk politics at all - its seen almost as a very private thing. My mother, for instance, never told me who she voted for.

I am learning the differences between the UK and US - the US guys take their politics far more seriously than we do. A lot of the drama today would just not happen on a UK site. Nobody cares enough. Thats not a criticism of America or its politics - just saying how things are over here, using my own personal experiences - others might have a completely different point of view, but I cannot speak on their behalf.
 
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Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
subwax said:
I understand - I was trying to user it as a tool to explain my position has my previous attempts have clearly failed. I am in no way comparing American politics to a game of rugby. Let's make that clear from the start.

I do vote, as I feel millions have died to give me that right. I spend a few days before the election going through the manifesto's, choosing the policies I like that will be completely ignored. i voted Lib Dem last time because they lobbied that they would get rid of IR35, and that they would look seriously into decriminalising marijuana. In the UK, its a 2 horse race, really - Conservatives and Labour. The Conservatives took us out of Europe. so they cannot get my vote. Labour took us to war with you guys on the basis on WMD's, that were never there - I cant vote for them either. So I am 2 parties down - the main ones too - so I have to pick a party that might have one or two good policies, but could also have a lot of policies I don't agree with. Such is my lot.

People do have party's that they are "married to" for life. All of Scotland are anti Conservatives. The South of England don't usually vote for Labour. For the most part, though, and with the notable exception of Brexit - we don't talk politics at all - its seen almost as a very private thing. My mother, for instance, never told me who she voted for.

I am learning the differences between the UK and US - the US guys take their politics far more seriously than we do. A lot of the drama today would just not happen on a UK site. Nobody cares enough. Thats not a criticism of America or its politics - just saying how things are over here.
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The US has drifted into a strange place. It's not at all like it was 20 years ago. After 8 years with Clinton, Democrats didn't seem all that different from the Republican administrations beforehand. Then Bush got into office by the narrowest of margins. Then this country went to war with Iraq based upon lies and the patriotic fervor brought on by the 9-11 terrorist attack on the World Trade Center. We never should have entered Iraq. I never bought that lie. I never supported the war.

I show up at protests. I am politically active. I was at counter protests when Proud Boys first showed up in Portland Oregon. We saw them for what they were years before they led the attack at the Capitol Building. I saw police support the fascists in our streets. I saw the police just look on when one of the goons went after a counter protester standing in their way. I saw the police move in on counter protesters when they started defending themselves.

So, I don't feel disconnected with politics. What's going on has real consequences. I didn't feel like that 20 years ago. It's just different now.

Fascism is making a serious comeback worldwide. I don't think it's just an issue in the US. India's democracy is in serious jeopardy as is Poland and other Eastern European countries. I don't always agree with Hannimal about the power of propaganda but I do agree that it's being used as a tool by some very unsavory authoritarian governments against democracy. If it didn't have some effect, why would they put resources into it. That's a circular argument but I do wonder about that. I'll stop with Cambridge Analytica.
 
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subwax

subwax

Well-Known Member
I have seen a lot of Fascism in Europe, recently - that saddens me a lot. Austria too, right? How frighteningly ironic.

My political experiences are trifling compared to yours. I can understand why my glib and flippant comments could have upset folk.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
subwax said:
I am learning the differences between the UK and US - the US guys take their politics far more seriously than we do
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That's because politics is a deadly serious thing in the USA, but what you actually have is cold civil war. Politics requires goodwill on both sides, that's not possible with the republicans as currently constituted. There was a time in the 90's when there wasn't much difference between the parties, but that has long since changed. The majority of the white American population are bigots and close to 7 in 10 white males have a chip on their shoulder about it and many have gone tribal. The parties are polarized now between patriots who want a liberal democracy that includes all people and the other side wants fascist rule by a minority that will descend into genocide eventually, it usually does. Minorities are strong in the democratic party now and racists make up the base of the republicans, the days of compromise by throwing minorities under the bus are over.
 
subwax

subwax

Well-Known Member
Wow - thats a pretty bleak painting there.

Think I'll stay far away from any further comments on American politics.

I have had a quick look round the site, and found that as a rule, people disagree with each other, but it's kind of still OK. Lulled me into a false sense of security that we could have some fun with it - clearly a bad decision. When I considered how I would feel if a non UK person started making comments about Brexit, I think I'd be pretty upset. I get it now.
 
zeddd

zeddd

Well-Known Member
subwax said:
OK - I think I see your point. I in no way think the Conservative and the Labour parties are the same thing - thats insanity to think that. They are both political parties, though, so if you dislike political parties, you'll dislike both, right? Regardless of policies or anything like that. If you don't like politic parties, you dislike them all. That is my point.


Would you think that its Trump or.the Republican party that stormed the WH? It only happens if Trump is controlling things, as I see it.
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Binary logic, binary argument, polarity, disagreement, accept premise=fake reality
 
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CunningCanuk

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
CatHedral said:
However, her power, which she rarely exercises, is considerable. She has the authority and the capacity to end the sort of shenanigans we have had here. Her duty is almost entirely ceremonial because that allows her domain to practice all the squabbles that democratic government necessarily brings along.
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The monarchy has no power and only exists as long as the British people cling to tradition over sensibility.
 
CatHedral

CatHedral

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
That's because politics is a deadly serious thing in the USA, but what you actually have is cold civil war. Politics requires goodwill on both sides, that's not possible with the republicans as currently constituted. There was a time in the 90's when there wasn't much difference between the parties, but that has long since changed. The majority of the white American population are bigots and close to 7 in 10 white males have a chip on their shoulder about it and many have gone tribal. The parties are polarized now between patriots who want a liberal democracy, that includes all people and the other side wants fascist rule by a minority that will descend into genocide eventually, it usually does. Minorities are strong in the democratic party now and racists make up the base of the republicans, the days of compromise by throwing minorities under the bus are over.
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The single most shocking thing from last year, and there is no lack of contenders, was not even the insurrection.
It was the doings at the border, like unnecessary hysterectomies without consent. That is full bore fascism.
 
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