Israeli Occupation my ass!!!!

abe23

Active Member
Ok....look at the black and white video again. To me, it looks like it's the commandos who are also just defending themselves. And I'm not at all confused about the term self-defense, i just don't think it's that clear cut. These ship were deliberately running through a naval blockade and fully expected to be boarded (which is why they are armed with slingshots, clubs and knives) in order to make a political point. And they got exactly what they wanted. By the way, some 50 years ago there was another naval blockade that would have caused WW3 if the soviets had pulled the same stunt.

And it's true that the navy is pretty restrained when dealing with the pirates because of maritime law and the very specific mandate they have. The russians found a pretty brutal way around the problem....they just capture the pirates and then release them in the high seas:

Freed Somali pirates 'probably died' - Russian source

Also, this is pretty good for some background info on the aid flotilla raid:

(CNN) -- The deaths of nine people during a raid by Israeli soldiers on a flotilla bringing aid to Palestinians in Gaza has once again brought worldwide attention on Israel's blockade of the area.

Who organized the flotilla?

The Free Gaza Movement, a Cyprus-based human rights group, brought together a number of organizations to form the Freedom Flotilla. The coalition includes the European Campaign to end the siege of Gaza. Another pro-Palestinian group, Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), a Turkish organization, also sent a ship. The flotilla left Cyprus on Sunday and had been due to arrive in Gaza on Monday.

Why a flotilla?

The Free Gaza Movement says it wants to raise awareness of what it describes as the "illegal siege on Gaza" by Israel. It says the blockade of Gaza by Israel is unjustified and that it denies Palestinians vital goods and services. "We want to raise international awareness about the prison-like closure of Gaza and pressure the international community to review its sanctions policy and end its support for continued Israeli occupation," the group says on its Web site.

What does the convoy consist of?

Six ships -- three passenger and three cargo vessels -- carrying over 10,000 tons of aid and 600 passengers from more than 20 countries, says the Free Gaza Movement. Most of the passengers were Turkish. The cargo consists of food, medical aid and other supplies including cement, prefabricated housing and educational equipment, the group said. The Turkish prime minister said Monday that the vessels were inspected before they left port in Turkey to make sure the cargo did not include weapons.

What does Israel say about the blockade?

The blockade was imposed by Israel in 2007 after the militant group Hamas seized control of the territory. It is designed to stop the smuggling of arms into Gaza, the Israeli government says. Israel says the Gaza shoreline is closed to maritime traffic. Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said Israeli civilians were plagued a year ago by rockets and missiles fired from Gaza that originated in places like Iran and Syria.

What does the U.N. say about the blockade?

The U.N. has described the blockade of Gaza by Israel as the "collective punishment" of the Palestinian people living there. The United Nations has repeatedly criticized the blockade and the insufficient flow of materials into the area for basic needs and reconstruction. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has warned the closure "creates unacceptable suffering, hurts forces of moderation and empowers extremists."

What goods does Israel allow into Gaza?

About 15,000 tons of humanitarian aid flows into Gaza each week, Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said. Israel says it allows enough humanitarian aid -- including food and medicines - into Gaza for the people who live there and that the blockade is designed to stop Hamas from building or acquiring arms. Israel has never published a list of banned items but it has refused to allow into Gaza books, paper, blankets and reconstruction materials. The U.N. says 80 percent of Gazans rely on some form of humanitarian aid.

Why did Israel object to the flotilla?

The Israeli government described the flotilla has a "provocation" and said it was a political stunt. Danny Ayalon, the Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, said: "The organizers' intent was violent, their method was violent and the results were unfortunately violent." The Free Gaza Movement said the flotilla's aim was to "challenge Israel's blockade of 1.5 million Palestinians trapped in an open-air prison."

Was there another route for this aid?

The Israeli government said it would allow humanitarian aid on the flotilla into Gaza through its normal channels. An IDF spokesman said the vessels "refused to comply with an invitation to come to Ashdod port where they could transfer aid into the Gaza strip." Audrey Bomse, legal advisor to the Free Gaza Movement, told CNN the group did not believe the Israelis would let the cargo into Gaza and that the cargo also included reconstruction aid which Israel does not allow into Gaza

How did things turn violent?

The Israel government says its soldiers faced violent resistance as they boarded the largest ship, the Marmara. The Free Gaza Movement denies there was violent resistance to Israeli soldiers, saying the soldiers immediately opened fire on unarmed civilians. Video released by the Israeli Defense Forces showed intense fighting on the decks of the ship.

What happens next?

The ships were escorted to the Israeli port of Ashdod and 15 people who had been aboard were taken to an Israeli prison in Beer Sheva, according to a spokesman for the Israeli prison authority. Meanwhile diplomatic tensions rise. Turkey recalled its ambassador to Israel, there was widespread international condemnation of the Israeli operation and the U.N. Security Council met Monday.

Have ships been sent to Gaza during the blockade before?

Yes, the Free Gaza Movement on its website says it has organized eight voyages to Gaza, "successfully arriving in Gaza five times." The group said its "boats are the first international ships to sail to the Gaza Strip since 1967."
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
what's happening in gaza amounts to the greatest human rights abuse in the last decade, maybe more.

It's because of the openness of it all. The whole world is looking at israel push this minority, this entire ethnic class, into a small strip of land, and then blockading it, leaving the people with little resources, and little options.

I saw a guy on FNC yesterday say that there's no starvation or misery going on in Gaza, that Israel lets food through, very very very pro-zionist spin on the whole situation, for a minute i thought the Gaza strip had turned into a Country Club because he made it sound like if it was so great to live there....:roll:


and FYI PEOPLE, this counts as an act of war. I haven't read enough on the subject yet, but I believe the ships that were boarded were flying Turkish Flags, and Turkey is Israel's ally... supposedly.... seeing what happens will be interesting, the Israelis will probably start repeating holocaust holocaust holocaust, antisemite antisemite antisemite and BOOM. the whole world forgot what happened..... like always...:joint:
 

tinyTURTLE

Well-Known Member
i will laugh when UN sanctions are discussed.
i will laugh harder if they are implimented.

they"ve had 62 years of get-out-of-jail-free cards.
pretty good run, but it is coming to an end.
israel, meet accountability.
 

ginjawarrior

Well-Known Member
Ok....look at the black and white video again. To me, it looks like it's the commandos who are also just defending themselves. And I'm not at all confused about the term self-defense, i just don't think it's that clear cut. These ship were deliberately running through a naval blockade and fully expected to be boarded (which is why they are armed with slingshots, clubs and knives) in order to make a political point. And they got exactly what they wanted. By the way, some 50 years ago there was another naval blockade that would have caused WW3 if the soviets had pulled the same stunt.

And it's true that the navy is pretty restrained when dealing with the pirates because of maritime law and the very specific mandate they have. The russians found a pretty brutal way around the problem....they just capture the pirates and then release them in the high seas:

Freed Somali pirates 'probably died' - Russian source

Also, this is pretty good for some background info on the aid flotilla raid:
i find it quite telling that the israeli videos seem to be from the very begining of the raid, yeah it does show the soldiers being attacked but the soldiers shouldnt have been there in the first place, and if they didnt fire first shot why not show from the moment the helicopters got there?
also should israel board a ship in international waters then detain nearly 500 of the crew?
 

abe23

Active Member
what's happening in gaza amounts to the greatest human rights abuse in the last decade, maybe more.

It's because of the openness of it all. The whole world is looking at israel push this minority, this entire ethnic class, into a small strip of land, and then blockading it, leaving the people with little resources, and little options.

I saw a guy on FNC yesterday say that there's no starvation or misery going on in Gaza, that Israel lets food through, very very very pro-zionist spin on the whole situation, for a minute i thought the Gaza strip had turned into a Country Club because he made it sound like if it was so great to live there....:roll:


and FYI PEOPLE, this counts as an act of war. I haven't read enough on the subject yet, but I believe the ships that were boarded were flying Turkish Flags, and Turkey is Israel's ally... supposedly.... seeing what happens will be interesting, the Israelis will probably start repeating holocaust holocaust holocaust, antisemite antisemite antisemite and BOOM. the whole world forgot what happened..... like always...:joint:
How convenient it must be to ignore 60 years of history and any shred of context....

The majority of palestinians live in the west bank, where things have been getting better and better for the past few years. Another 1 million or so palestinian arabs are israeli citizens. A few years ago, hamas chased out all the fatah/PA people from gaza by torturing and killing whoever they could find. To this day, it's basically a gang rule by a bunch of thugs who lynch anyone who disagrees with them for being a 'spy' and control all the smuggling through the tunnels. Not to mention attacking the only summer camp for girls as unislamic and talibanizing the place. Then they pose as a liberation movement and get all sorts of international sympathy for being the underdog. It's all politics. And the 1.5 million people who live in gaza are getting fucked because of it.

Yes gaza is a huge humanitarian problem. But if you seriously think it is "the greatest human rights abuse in the last decade, maybe more" then you really aren't paying attention my friend. Ever heard of North Korea, Burma, Zimbabwe, Belarus, Uzbekistan...? Israel is a free and open society, which is the very reason that we have such good information on what's going on there. Remember what we found saddam was doing to his people in iraq? Do you seriously think that this naval blockade is a worse human rights abuse than raping and torturing people's children and wives in order to get confessions from them? Because if you do, you really aren't any smarter than our friend rickywhite...
 

ginjawarrior

Well-Known Member
How convenient it must be to ignore 60 years of history and any shred of context....

The majority of palestinians live in the west bank, where things have been getting better and better for the past few years. Another 1 million or so palestinian arabs are israeli citizens. A few years ago, hamas chased out all the fatah/PA people from gaza by torturing and killing whoever they could find. To this day, it's basically a gang rule by a bunch of thugs who lynch anyone who disagrees with them for being a 'spy' and control all the smuggling through the tunnels. Not to mention attacking the only summer camp for girls as unislamic and talibanizing the place. Then they pose as a liberation movement and get all sorts of international sympathy for being the underdog. It's all politics. And the 1.5 million people who live in gaza are getting fucked because of it.

Yes gaza is a huge humanitarian problem. But if you seriously think it is "the greatest human rights abuse in the last decade, maybe more" then you really aren't paying attention my friend. Ever heard of North Korea, Burma, Zimbabwe, Belarus, Uzbekistan...? Israel is a free and open society, which is the very reason that we have such good information on what's going on there. Remember what we found saddam was doing to his people in iraq? Do you seriously think that this naval blockade is a worse human rights abuse than raping and torturing people's children and wives in order to get confessions from them? Because if you do, you really aren't any smarter than our friend rickywhite...
looks like in addition to the stun grenades and tear gass they were firing paintballs at people too.... and the soldiers claim self defence on a ship they violently boarded in international waters?


Captain Aria Shaliker of the Israel Defense Forces, who was part of Monday's operation, says the commandos began the raids armed with paint ball guns.
"I was, myself, on one of the boats, the Israeli boats, approaching the flotilla," he told the BBC's World Today programme.
"It is true that the Israeli commander unit... came on board with paint ball weapons... in order to disperse [people] if there was violence. They were ready for a violent... demonstration on board the flotilla, especially on the big boat, the Marmara.
 

abe23

Active Member
[video=youtube;gYjkLUcbJWo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo[/video]

Oh and by the way...all the humanitarian supplies got into gaza by truck today after being unloaded at an israeli port to make sure there are no weapons on board. Israel had offered this before, but had been turned down. This isn't about humanitarian supplies, it's about a publicity stunt.

Looks like the protesters got what they wanted. The ones who didn't get killed anyhow...
 

ginjawarrior

Well-Known Member
that video is missing the beginning isnt it? why havent they released the footage from the moment the helicopters arrived?

the whole thing was always to bring world attention to the plight of people in gaza. Looks like israel played right into their hands tho didnt they? if the people on the ships wanted to bring israel heavy handedness to the world then they struck gold
 

ginjawarrior

Well-Known Member
oh yeah if it was just about getting the supplies there it would have been a containership instead of a passenger liner...
 

ink the world

Well-Known Member
My take if anyone cares:

1. The protesters got what they wanted, worldwide attention in an incident that makes Israel look bad.
2. I can see both sides of the coin, i can understand the people on the ship defending themselves as I can to an extent understand the commandos.
3. Israel comes off looking very aggressive, not good seeing as how the ship was flying a Turkish flag.
4. This will set back any progress w/ talks, Turkey IS important to peace talks and they are now super pissed. We would be too if that ship was flying an American flag.
5. Israel usually has its shit together when it comes to this type of stuff, this was a surprise to me as far as how off base things got.
 

ginjawarrior

Well-Known Member

looks like theres a round 2 on its way i wonder how they're gonna deal with this one
Irish aid boat holds course towards Gaza despite Israel warning

MV Rachel Corrie avoided capture during flotilla raid but Israeli lieutenant says 'we will be ready'




Medical supplies being loaded into the MV Rachel Corrie, which was named after a 23-year-old American killed in Gaza in 2003. Photograph: Niall Carson/PA The final boat in the Gaza aid flotilla was sailing at full speed towards the territory's coast tonight despite warnings that it would be intercepted by Israeli forces.
The MV Rachel Corrie, a 40-year-old cargo ship bought by the Irish arm of the Free Gaza Movement, was delayed and avoided capture during Monday night's assault. Tonight it was still in international waters about two days from Gaza, carrying a consignment of aid and 19 activists and crew, among them five Irish nationals, the organisation said.
The Irish taoiseach, Brian Cowen, warned Israel tonight that he expected no violence against those on the Rachel Corrie.
"If any harm comes to any of our citizens it will have the most serious consequences," he said, calling on Israel to guarantee the vessel safe passage through the military blockade of Gaza.
The ship, named after the 23-year-old American killed in Gaza in 2003 while trying to prevent an Israeli bulldozer demolishing a Palestinian home, had halted in the Mediterranean following the assault while those on board – among them the Nobel peace laureate Máiread Maguire and Denis Halliday, a retired senior UN diplomat – discussed whether they should continue.
It was now carrying as a "second wave" of the flotilla, said Niamh Moloughney, who organised the sailing in Ireland.
"I'd say the mood on board is resilient and steadfast. When people signed up to this they knew what might happen," said Moloughney. "We expected we would be confronted and there would be a stand-off, but no one expected this. But there's never really been a question of the boat turning back."
As well as the Irish nationals, the 1,200-tonne boat is carrying six Malaysians and eight crew of varying nationalities.
All those on board had received training in non-violent resistance before the sailing and had pledged not to fight back if the boat was boarded, Moloughney added.
Speaking on the boat's satellite phone, Maguire said she was determined the boat should continue on its course.
"We're not frightened, no, we hope the Israeli government will allow us to go freely in and we know the international community are calling for our safe passage," she said.
Halliday said he had spoken to Ireland's foreign minister, Micheál Martin. "He was very reassuring that the government was behind us and he gave us a complete green light to do what we're doing and he'll protect us as much as he can," Halliday said.
Martin himself told parliament: "We will be watching this situation very closely – as indeed will the world – and it is imperative that Israel avoid any action which leads to further bloodshed."
It appeared clear, however, that Israel planned to stop the ship.
The country's military was carrying out "professional investigations" into what happened in Monday's raid, an Israeli marine lieutenant, who was not identified, told Israel's Army Radio. He added: "And we will also be ready for the Rachel Corrie."The boat, which was bought at auction by the Free Gaza Movement after being impounded a year before in Dundalk, is carrying a consignment including medical equipment, wheelchairs, school supplies and cement, according to the organisation.
 

Merowe

Well-Known Member
How convenient it must be to ignore 60 years of history and any shred of context....

The majority of palestinians live in the west bank, where things have been getting better and better for the past few years. Another 1 million or so palestinian arabs are israeli citizens. A few years ago, hamas chased out all the fatah/PA people from gaza by torturing and killing whoever they could find. To this day, it's basically a gang rule by a bunch of thugs who lynch anyone who disagrees with them for being a 'spy' and control all the smuggling through the tunnels. Not to mention attacking the only summer camp for girls as unislamic and talibanizing the place. Then they pose as a liberation movement and get all sorts of international sympathy for being the underdog. It's all politics. And the 1.5 million people who live in gaza are getting fucked because of it.

Yes gaza is a huge humanitarian problem. But if you seriously think it is "the greatest human rights abuse in the last decade, maybe more" then you really aren't paying attention my friend. Ever heard of North Korea, Burma, Zimbabwe, Belarus, Uzbekistan...? Israel is a free and open society, which is the very reason that we have such good information on what's going on there. Remember what we found saddam was doing to his people in iraq? Do you seriously think that this naval blockade is a worse human rights abuse than raping and torturing people's children and wives in order to get confessions from them? Because if you do, you really aren't any smarter than our friend rickywhite...
Abe, I'd contest your suggestion that conditions for Palestinians in the West Bank have been improving in recent years. As far as I know resistance to ongoing Israeli colonization has been effectively broken. A corrupt and toothless Fatah ensure the compliance of their own citizens, many of whom - in the shrinking and dysfunctional economy - are forced to find work building new Israeli settlements. On Palestinian land of course. Israel's colonization of its neighbour's lands is continuing, witness Netanyahu's recent go ahead to 2500 new settler apartments. Land available to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza continues to shrink as Israel continues to steal it through a range of criminal subversions.

Hamas came to blows with Fatah AFTER winning office through legitimate and internationally recognized democratic elections - which were challenged by Fatah and repudiated by Israel and certain western powers. Hamas was forced to fight for the power it had already won through the ballot box since Fatah would not willingly hand over the reins. Hamas' very existence simply demonstrates that when you have eliminated the more reasonable factions the extremists come to office. Hamas were funded by Shin Bet in their early days as a buffer against Fatah. Pre-Hamas the Israeli state made active war upon the PLO, in its day the democratically elected leaders of Palestine. It was so successful in its persecution of the PLO - you may recall Yasser Arafat's ignominious end, surrounded by Israeli tanks in the ruins of his Palestinian headquarters - they created the vacuum into which Hamas expanded. You cannot systematically deprive a people of its legitimate voice then complain when more extremist elements take their place.

Let's be clear here: the 1,5 million residents of Gaza aren't getting fucked by Hamas, whom they voted into office. They are getting fucked by Israel, which has pushed them into the most crowded strip of land on the planet, sealed them behind a lethally fortified wall and systematically shut down their economy so they are now dependent on international aid for survival. Hundreds of Palestinians have died for want of needed surgeries and child malnutrition rates rival the Horn of Africa.

In terms of the attack in international waters on a humanitarian aid convoy, Israel clearly botched that one. The entire purpose of the flotilla was to focus world attention on the criminal excesses of the illegal blockade and this, thanks to some trigger-happy Israeli commandos, has been accomplished. I think the IDF wanted to rough up and scare off the activists but didn't count on the concerted resistance put up by the Turks. Arguably the IDF were set up by the Turks, who've sickened after years of passively watching the Israel bully beat the living shit out of its toothless neighbours and steal all their shit.

And finally: the goal of the Israeli state is to displace the Gaza Palestinians from their remaining strip of land by so degrading the quality of life that young Palestinians will choose emigration over a life without hope. Then Israel will be able to roll up the last few villages and exploit the fishing, water, and offshore oil resources. Likewise in the West Bank they are systematically cutting up and choking off viable economic regions with the longterm goal of absorbing that into Eretz Israel as well.

You only need to study the character of Israel's political leadership in the past three decades, almost exclusively hardbitten ex-Army, ex-Holocaust, ex-Stern gang /Irgun terrorists to see these aren't western liberals looking for accommodation with their neighbours. They drove nearly a million Palestinians off land they covetted in '47 and have not stopped since, they've just learned how to conceal their strategy. That is the mindset that prevails to this day.
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
Abe, I'd contest your suggestion that conditions for Palestinians in the West Bank have been improving in recent years. As far as I know resistance to ongoing Israeli colonization has been effectively broken. A corrupt and toothless Fatah ensure the compliance of their own citizens, many of whom - in the shrinking and dysfunctional economy - are forced to find work building new Israeli settlements. On Palestinian land of course. Israel's colonization of its neighbour's lands is continuing, witness Netanyahu's recent go ahead to 2500 new settler apartments. Land available to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza continues to shrink as Israel continues to steal it through a range of criminal subversions.

Hamas came to blows with Fatah AFTER winning office through legitimate and internationally recognized democratic elections - which were challenged by Fatah and repudiated by Israel and certain western powers. Hamas was forced to fight for the power it had already won through the ballot box since Fatah would not willingly hand over the reins. Hamas' very existence simply demonstrates that when you have eliminated the more reasonable factions the extremists come to office. Hamas were funded by Shin Bet in their early days as a buffer against Fatah. Pre-Hamas the Israeli state made active war upon the PLO, in its day the democratically elected leaders of Palestine. It was so successful in its persecution of the PLO - you may recall Yasser Arafat's ignominious end, surrounded by Israeli tanks in the ruins of his Palestinian headquarters - they created the vacuum into which Hamas expanded. You cannot systematically deprive a people of its legitimate voice then complain when more extremist elements take their place.

Let's be clear here: the 1,5 million residents of Gaza aren't getting fucked by Hamas, whom they voted into office. They are getting fucked by Israel, which has pushed them into the most crowded strip of land on the planet, sealed them behind a lethally fortified wall and systematically shut down their economy so they are now dependent on international aid for survival. Hundreds of Palestinians have died for want of needed surgeries and child malnutrition rates rival the Horn of Africa.

In terms of the attack in international waters on a humanitarian aid convoy, Israel clearly botched that one. The entire purpose of the flotilla was to focus world attention on the criminal excesses of the illegal blockade and this, thanks to some trigger-happy Israeli commandos, has been accomplished. I think the IDF wanted to rough up and scare off the activists but didn't count on the concerted resistance put up by the Turks. Arguably the IDF were set up by the Turks, who've sickened after years of passively watching the Israel bully beat the living shit out of its toothless neighbours and steal all their shit.

And finally: the goal of the Israeli state is to displace the Gaza Palestinians from their remaining strip of land by so degrading the quality of life that young Palestinians will choose emigration over a life without hope. Then Israel will be able to roll up the last few villages and exploit the fishing, water, and offshore oil resources. Likewise in the West Bank they are systematically cutting up and choking off viable economic regions with the longterm goal of absorbing that into Eretz Israel as well.

You only need to study the character of Israel's political leadership in the past three decades, almost exclusively hardbitten ex-Army, ex-Holocaust, ex-Stern gang /Irgun terrorists to see these aren't western liberals looking for accommodation with their neighbours. They drove nearly a million Palestinians off land they covetted in '47 and have not stopped since, they've just learned how to conceal their strategy. That is the mindset that prevails to this day.
somebody that knows what's going on. FINALLY. not the whitewashed tid-bits of what what you should know.
 

dickdasterdly666

Well-Known Member
Abe, I'd contest your suggestion that conditions for Palestinians in the West Bank have been improving in recent years. As far as I know resistance to ongoing Israeli colonization has been effectively broken. A corrupt and toothless Fatah ensure the compliance of their own citizens, many of whom - in the shrinking and dysfunctional economy - are forced to find work building new Israeli settlements. On Palestinian land of course. Israel's colonization of its neighbour's lands is continuing, witness Netanyahu's recent go ahead to 2500 new settler apartments. Land available to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza continues to shrink as Israel continues to steal it through a range of criminal subversions.

Hamas came to blows with Fatah AFTER winning office through legitimate and internationally recognized democratic elections - which were challenged by Fatah and repudiated by Israel and certain western powers. Hamas was forced to fight for the power it had already won through the ballot box since Fatah would not willingly hand over the reins. Hamas' very existence simply demonstrates that when you have eliminated the more reasonable factions the extremists come to office. Hamas were funded by Shin Bet in their early days as a buffer against Fatah. Pre-Hamas the Israeli state made active war upon the PLO, in its day the democratically elected leaders of Palestine. It was so successful in its persecution of the PLO - you may recall Yasser Arafat's ignominious end, surrounded by Israeli tanks in the ruins of his Palestinian headquarters - they created the vacuum into which Hamas expanded. You cannot systematically deprive a people of its legitimate voice then complain when more extremist elements take their place.

Let's be clear here: the 1,5 million residents of Gaza aren't getting fucked by Hamas, whom they voted into office. They are getting fucked by Israel, which has pushed them into the most crowded strip of land on the planet, sealed them behind a lethally fortified wall and systematically shut down their economy so they are now dependent on international aid for survival. Hundreds of Palestinians have died for want of needed surgeries and child malnutrition rates rival the Horn of Africa.

In terms of the attack in international waters on a humanitarian aid convoy, Israel clearly botched that one. The entire purpose of the flotilla was to focus world attention on the criminal excesses of the illegal blockade and this, thanks to some trigger-happy Israeli commandos, has been accomplished. I think the IDF wanted to rough up and scare off the activists but didn't count on the concerted resistance put up by the Turks. Arguably the IDF were set up by the Turks, who've sickened after years of passively watching the Israel bully beat the living shit out of its toothless neighbours and steal all their shit.

And finally: the goal of the Israeli state is to displace the Gaza Palestinians from their remaining strip of land by so degrading the quality of life that young Palestinians will choose emigration over a life without hope. Then Israel will be able to roll up the last few villages and exploit the fishing, water, and offshore oil resources. Likewise in the West Bank they are systematically cutting up and choking off viable economic regions with the longterm goal of absorbing that into Eretz Israel as well.

You only need to study the character of Israel's political leadership in the past three decades, almost exclusively hardbitten ex-Army, ex-Holocaust, ex-Stern gang /Irgun terrorists to see these aren't western liberals looking for accommodation with their neighbours. They drove nearly a million Palestinians off land they covetted in '47 and have not stopped since, they've just learned how to conceal their strategy. That is the mindset that prevails to this day.
Lol i was reading this thread and was thinking no no no you all have it sooo wrong until i saw ur post i was relieved :mrgreen:.
That is the true story in that part of the world. not skynews and bbc.
 

abe23

Active Member
Abe, I'd contest your suggestion that conditions for Palestinians in the West Bank have been improving in recent years. As far as I know resistance to ongoing Israeli colonization has been effectively broken. A corrupt and toothless Fatah ensure the compliance of their own citizens, many of whom - in the shrinking and dysfunctional economy - are forced to find work building new Israeli settlements. On Palestinian land of course. Israel's colonization of its neighbour's lands is continuing, witness Netanyahu's recent go ahead to 2500 new settler apartments. Land available to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza continues to shrink as Israel continues to steal it through a range of criminal subversions.

Hamas came to blows with Fatah AFTER winning office through legitimate and internationally recognized democratic elections - which were challenged by Fatah and repudiated by Israel and certain western powers. Hamas was forced to fight for the power it had already won through the ballot box since Fatah would not willingly hand over the reins. Hamas' very existence simply demonstrates that when you have eliminated the more reasonable factions the extremists come to office. Hamas were funded by Shin Bet in their early days as a buffer against Fatah. Pre-Hamas the Israeli state made active war upon the PLO, in its day the democratically elected leaders of Palestine. It was so successful in its persecution of the PLO - you may recall Yasser Arafat's ignominious end, surrounded by Israeli tanks in the ruins of his Palestinian headquarters - they created the vacuum into which Hamas expanded. You cannot systematically deprive a people of its legitimate voice then complain when more extremist elements take their place.

Let's be clear here: the 1,5 million residents of Gaza aren't getting fucked by Hamas, whom they voted into office. They are getting fucked by Israel, which has pushed them into the most crowded strip of land on the planet, sealed them behind a lethally fortified wall and systematically shut down their economy so they are now dependent on international aid for survival. Hundreds of Palestinians have died for want of needed surgeries and child malnutrition rates rival the Horn of Africa.

In terms of the attack in international waters on a humanitarian aid convoy, Israel clearly botched that one. The entire purpose of the flotilla was to focus world attention on the criminal excesses of the illegal blockade and this, thanks to some trigger-happy Israeli commandos, has been accomplished. I think the IDF wanted to rough up and scare off the activists but didn't count on the concerted resistance put up by the Turks. Arguably the IDF were set up by the Turks, who've sickened after years of passively watching the Israel bully beat the living shit out of its toothless neighbours and steal all their shit.

And finally: the goal of the Israeli state is to displace the Gaza Palestinians from their remaining strip of land by so degrading the quality of life that young Palestinians will choose emigration over a life without hope. Then Israel will be able to roll up the last few villages and exploit the fishing, water, and offshore oil resources. Likewise in the West Bank they are systematically cutting up and choking off viable economic regions with the longterm goal of absorbing that into Eretz Israel as well.

You only need to study the character of Israel's political leadership in the past three decades, almost exclusively hardbitten ex-Army, ex-Holocaust, ex-Stern gang /Irgun terrorists to see these aren't western liberals looking for accommodation with their neighbours. They drove nearly a million Palestinians off land they covetted in '47 and have not stopped since, they've just learned how to conceal their strategy. That is the mindset that prevails to this day.
Excellent post...+rep for that. I like it when people know what they're talking about.

There's little I can disagree with here, really, except that your narrative of what happened after hamas got elected is a little boggled. The fighting with fatah came after they had been running an administration in both the west bank and gaza. And the big problem back then and today is that hamas has for a stated goal the destruction of the state of israel. Frankly, the situation would look very different right now if they had changed that and started working on behalf of the palestinian people in order to get them the best deal possible. 60 years of fighting really hasn't gotten the palestinians very far....
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
More video of the soldiers being attacked as they descended. The ship announced their intention of running the blockade but the soldiers still did not expect this amount of violence as some were only armed paintball guns and a sidearm. Whether or not they believed the blockade to be illegal, don't expect mercy if you greet them with violence. The best thing they could have done is videotape the boarding and submit a complaint to international courts.
[youtube]pMmDfvAMTqc[/youtube]
 

tinyTURTLE

Well-Known Member
More video of the soldiers being attacked as they descended. The ship announced their intention of running the blockade but the soldiers still did not expect this amount of violence as some were only armed paintball guns and a sidearm. Whether or not they believed the blockade to be illegal, don't expect mercy if you greet them with violence. The best thing they could have done is videotape the boarding and submit a complaint to international courts.
[youtube]pMmDfvAMTqc[/youtube]
they boarded the ship illegaly, with the intent of taking controll and changing it's course.
That's called a hijacking. Or piracy. People resent being hijacked and people with courage
try to interrup a hijacking. Israel created a nice shitstorm for themselves, here.
People all around the world are calling for accountability.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
they boarded the ship illegaly, with the intent of taking controll and changing it's course.
That's called a hijacking. Or piracy. People resent being hijacked and people with courage
try to interrup a hijacking. Israel created a nice shitstorm for themselves, here.
People all around the world are calling for accountability.
Running a military blockade is not an excuse to claim hijacking.
It is not up to them to decide the legality of the blockade. Do you think crews should fight USCG during nterdictions on international waters? If they do, expect a sniper to take them out.
 
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