Is this Tobacco Mosaic Virus? Almost three straight YEARS of total crop failure. Should I nuke the grow-op?

dwc420letsgo said:

What is the definition of insanity?

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I'm not a shrink so idk.

What does psychology have to do with plants anyway? They have no brain or nervous system, thus no psyche.

I will say suffering continuous low-mid grade pain for four years straight because some fracking plants won't bloom properly is for sure driving me to the brink of insanity, let me tell ya!

Drop That Sound said:

Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results.

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I must be reverse-insane then because I try DIFFERENT things to fix the problem every grow, yet get the SAME results!

Looks like over feeding issues to me. Everytime. High PK way too soon.

ebgms said:

So the virus is causing a "lockout"? What is that, I thought that was like workers going on strike or something???

I don't think I'm overfeeding. I'm feeding the recommended dose on the instructions except for the last watering, where I gave 1x N 2x P 1x K because the buds were starting to set. I did that for ten years and it never caused a problem.

And the venn diagram you posted makes absolutely no sense to me. What does it even mean? I don't know much about plants/botany.

Thanks.

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That's not a ven diagram, it's mulders chart. It pertains to nutrient antagonism and synergy. Excess of one nutrient can antagonize (lock out) another. If a nutrient is locked out that enables another nutrient, it snowballs from there.

No offense, but if you've been doing this for over ten years, you must have some idea of how these mechanisms work, and what your plants are saying. Full strength at this stage of flower seems very excessive, and it looks like that's what your plant is telling you.

I don't think you have a virus.

Switch to coco

PEE kills TMV

Go grab a 24 can box of beer - slam them down then hose those garden goddesses with a golden shower.

Kills spiders too

ebgms said:

Keep in mind they grew JUST FINE for TEN YEARS without ONE SINGLE PROBLEM then ever since espoma switched it's soil from a Canada to NJ source (2019) EVERY SINGLE CROP has failed no matter which soils, nutes, lights, watering schedules, whatever I use.

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If nothing else has changed, this is the genesis of your issues. And I doubt it's a virus or viroid. I get the impression your entire base soil is different, but you are treating it the same as the past soil (or not different enough).

If you cannot break from this habit, try an entirely different style for a grow (e.g., coco and salts).

If you don't like my thinking, I stand by my advice to try a different style anyway. Consider it an experiment to see if you are right about a virus.

Kinda looks/sounds like overfeeding to me, causing lockout of one or more nutrients. Especially the part where the bottom half looks fine and the top half gets toasted.

Here's another view of Mulder's chart with a bit more explanation for all the lines:

If one nutrient (say phosphorous) is being locked out/antagonized by another nutrient (say calcium or iron), no amount of increasing that one nutrient is going to help. You have to cut back on the antagonizing nutrient.

I totally agree with @GenericEnigma that it couldn't hurt to try a different style on a plant or even an entire crop at this point. Personally, I had a lot of trouble with salt based nutes, actually similar symptoms to what you're seeing, and found organic growing with just peat, perlite, worm castings, and dry amendments to be much easier and more forgiving.

Espoma makes great fertilizer blends for growing weed, like Garden-Tone and Tomato-Tone. Just a thought, couldn't hurt to try if you're continuing to have issues with your current method.

Best of luck, hope you're able to find something that works!!

weedstoner420 said:

Kinda looks/sounds like overfeeding to me, causing lockout of one or more nutrients. Especially the part where the bottom half looks fine and the top half gets toasted.

Here's another view of Mulder's chart with a bit more explanation for all the lines:

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This is absolutely fascinating...this Mulder's chart. I had no idea all the nutrients were all interconnected like that, especially the micro nutes.

So if I'm reading this right, an excess (abundance) of nitrogen (N) will cause an antagonist (lock out) of copper and boron, but will cause a stimulation (demand for) more magnesium?

A high level (abundance) of potassium (K) will antagonize (lock out) boron and magnesium while stimulating demand for more iron?

And a high level of phosphorous (P) will antagonize (lock out) copper, calcium, potassium (!), iron and zinc while stimulating demand for more magnesium?

This is legit awesome...does Mulder's chart apply to just cannabis or other plants also?

Anyway thank you very much for posting that!

ebgms said:

This is absolutely fascinating...this Mulder's chart. I had no idea all the nutrients were all interconnected like that, especially the micro nutes.

So if I'm reading this right, an excess (abundance) of nitrogen (N) will cause an antagonist (lock out) of copper and boron, but will cause a stimulation (demand for) more magnesium?

A high level (abundance) of potassium (K) will antagonize (lock out) boron and magnesium while stimulating demand for more iron?

And a high level of phosphorous (P) will antagonize (lock out) copper, calcium, potassium (!), iron and zinc while stimulating demand for more magnesium?

This is legit awesome...does Mulder's chart apply to just cannabis or other plants also?

Anyway thank you very much for posting that!

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Hell yeah, it was a real eye opener for me too when I first heard of it. I like to think of it as the "for when you're giving it more of "x" but the problem keeps getting worse" chart.

I'm sure it applies to other plants too, but the degree to which the antagonism/stimulation affects growth probably varies greatly from one species to another.

Phytoplankton said:

Are all your plants descendents (clones of clones of clones) of the original plant 15 years ago? If so there is also a chance it's genetic drift or "fading". One of the issues caused by genetic drift is a less vigorous plant, that is more susceptble to disease. Your clones may be reaching the end of their journey. Try some new stock and see if the same thing happens.

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This was my first guess, and I am no expert, but maybe you should outcross your plant so you can reinvigorate it? Hopefully more knowledgeable people can chime in here, as I have never done this myself.

ebgms said:

I will say suffering continuous low-mid grade pain for four years straight because some fracking plants won't bloom properly is for sure driving me to the brink of insanity, let me tell ya!

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If you've had continuous failure for years I'd try another substrate. I also believe it's a nutrients issue. Finally if you really believe it's a viral pathogen there is PCR testing so you could get a definitive answer on that. I'd contact a lab and discuss it with them. This is one I found on google not a recommendation. Best of luck in figuring this out and I have to say I admire your perseverance.