Is this Tobacco Mosaic Virus? Almost three straight YEARS of total crop failure. Should I nuke the grow-op?

Hello,

I think my plants have Tobacco Mosaic Virus, or some other really bad plant virus that is systemically crippiling my crop to the point of near uselessness. This is not a simple nute or ph problem or anything like that, I would know, I have 14yrs experence growing and I have NEVER seen anything like this. I hope someone here has and can help, or at least confirm my suspicions of an incurable plant virus (or microscopic insect/spider that is impervious to all known incectacides) that is ravaging my crops before I nuke the entire grow-op from orbit and start with everything new (including a/c and light fixtures which is BIG $$$). Info below...

Plant: Indica dominant, unknown genetics (came from a "bag" I bought over 15yrs ago).

Reason For Growing: Medicinal use. For me only. I'm in a legal state following state law.

History: Been growing this same strain for 14 years, no problems. The last two and a half years have been a disaster...every crop in last 2 1/2 years has failed, and failed in the exact same way, no matter what interventions I take (and I've tried MANY, listed below). I've thrown the kitchen sink at these plants and no matter what I do nothing changes for the better. Nothing changes in ANY way whatsoever!

Note this was a very SUDDEN change, it was NOT a slow fade. It went from a ~12yr run of good to great crop every time to near total failure within one grow cycle and every cycle since has failed to the point of entire branches dying back and buds dying on the plant.

Environment:

- Indoor. Grow cabanet. Totally self-contained.
- 3gal pots
- 2x 600W HPS approx 2ft from plants
- 8 mature plants blooming together
- Temp controlled 70 lights off 80 lights on
- Occilating fan blowing across tops of plants
- No visible insects, spiders, spider mites, fungi or animals

Nutes: Jacks classic 20-20-20 (tried others, see Interventions section below)

Water: tap (~100ppm baseline)

Symptoms:

*** MUCH smaller yields. Yeilds were bigger when I was growing under 80W shoplight when I first started 14yr ago, with the SAME plant (genetics). Now under 1200W hps the yeild is clearly smaller and medicine weaker than under flo tubes 14yr ago.
*** MUCH less resin production per bud
*** Buds are fluffy and airy, not solid and firm like they always were.
*** Top bud (main cola) the same size as most of the other upper level buds...before problem started top bud was MUCH bigger than any other bud on the plant. Top bud was also purple at maturity (end of flower) now it's just green like all the others.

- Mother plants dying quickly - can't keep them alive more than 6mo to 1yr
- Clones taking 2x longer to root
- Plants taking 2x-3x longer to reach maturity
- Once mature, nute burn even at low/no nute levels
- Light burn starts as soon as buds form
- Light burn on mother plants under 2x 40W shoplight (!!!)
- Leaves burn on all edges, necrosis slowly spreads inward until leaf dies, curled UP
- Some leaves get a brown and yellow tip on the longest petal before necrosis spreads
- a striped alternating pattern on leaves (green-yellow-green) that is VERY unique
- slow root growth
- root ball at maturity much smaller than normal
- weak main stems (tall/mother plants unable to support own weight, keel over)
- smaller, weaker secondary stems
- MUCH longer distance between nodes. stretch starts in veg, MUCH worse pre-flower.
- Once buds form, leaves start dying from MIDDLE of plant up. Lower leaves unaffected.
- Lower leaves and lower buds (where light rarely hits) finish completely healthy

Hypothesis: Plant cannot take light properly. Plant does not absorb, distribute and/or process nutes properly. Disregulation of photosynthetic process. Total systemic collapse. Virus or microscopic insect/spider suspected as cause.

Interventions (all of which had ABSOLUTELY no effect):

- tried seven diff types of soil...all seven crops failed the EXACT same way
- changed all grow lightbulbs to new ones (done this twice)
- tried different water (distilled, RO, rain)
- tried different temps for day vs night
- used Jacks Classic bloom booster nutes 10-30-20 instead of Classic 20-20-20
- worm castings
- bat guano
- neem oil
- insecticidal soap
- acephate

^None of the above had ANY EFFECT WHATSOEVER good or bad!

Plan:

Nuke the entire grow-op from orbit when this current crop finishes (fails), clorox and bug bomb entire grow area, heat grow area to 140 degrees for 12hrs, attempt to start over with a new seed/strain/cultivar...unless my hail-mary post here lands on someone's eyes that knows wth this is (and how to fix it) which I realize is a long shot since this problem is so very, very bizzare and unresponsive to any interventions.

Pics attached.

Thank you for reading!

Its not likely TMV. Two really characteristic features of TMV are (1) mosaic-like necrosis that can wither tissue in one group of cells so much it looks translucent right next to a patch that is brittle and yellow right next to a typical brown necrotic patch; additionally (2) the manifestation tends to show from the center of the leaf and move outward.

You are also drawing some inferences here like you're seeing nute burn but you know you're not feeding anything. It's likely not an overabundance but other imbalances can show up like nutrient burns at the tip. Similar with deducing that you're witnessing light burn from 2 40w shop lights ( i assume you mean t5s here?)--that's not really how stuff works though, which you know, so perhaps it isn't light burn but another form of damage that looks similar?

In all, the confusing series of symptoms does make me think that some kind of viral vector is at issue which would require a bleach down as you describe. No worries, though, if it is a virus bleaching all your gear and tools etc. will work and you'll be back on your way.

sorry i couldn't be more helpful!

cheers, and good luck

Dr.J20 said:

Similar with deducing that you're witnessing light burn from 2 40w shop lights ( i assume you mean t5s here?)

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2x F40T12 daylight 6500K. This is in my cloning/mothering cab. Flower cab has 2x 600W HPS 2000K.

Dr.J20 said:

In all, the confusing series of symptoms does make me think that some kind of viral vector is at issue which would require a bleach down as you describe. No worries, though, if it is a virus bleaching all your gear and tools etc. will work and you'll be back on your way.

sorry i couldn't be more helpful!

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No problem, thank you for your reply. It's good to know a bleach down will kill any viruses.

That pretty much looks like phosphorus deficiency down to the dead leaves. Why? No idea.

Have you taken in any new clones or plants from outside your grow? The pics do look a lot like phosphorus deficiency but a lot of the symptoms you're describing sounds like Hlvd or dudding as it's also called. I'd get a sample tested if you have brought in any outside plants just to eliminate it.

Are all your plants descendents (clones of clones of clones) of the original plant 15 years ago? If so there is also a chance it's genetic drift or "fading". One of the issues caused by genetic drift is a less vigorous plant, that is more susceptble to disease. Your clones may be reaching the end of their journey. Try some new stock and see if the same thing happens.

FirstCavApache64 said:

Have you taken in any new clones or plants from outside your grow?

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No. Are you suggesting bringing in a new clone or plant from outside my grow (have no idea where I'd find one) then grafting it onto one of my clones or mothers? That's an interesting idea I had never thought to try that.

FirstCavApache64 said:

The pics do look a lot like phosphorus deficiency but a lot of the symptoms you're describing sounds like Hlvd or dudding as it's also called. I'd get a sample tested if you have brought in any outside plants just to eliminate it.

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How do I test it or get it tested for Hvld / dudding?

If you've only been growing from seed it would be very unlikely to get Hlvd from what I've read. It is possible but very unlikely. There are companies that do Hlvd tests but most require a ten test purchase. Check out the Strainly thread for info on who has gotten tests done from Tumi and others. The lack of trichomes and the clones not rooting right are common symptoms of it as are fragile branches and odd structure to the stems. However it's almost always spread from infected clones coming in contact with healthy plants or using the same tools on an infected plant. Hope you can find some answers, that's got to be really frustrating.

Phytoplankton said:

Are all your plants descendents (clones of clones of clones) of the original plant 15 years ago?

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Yes.

Phytoplankton said:

If so there is also a chance it's genetic drift or "fading". One of the issues caused by genetic drift is a less vigorous plant, that is more susceptble to disease. Your clones may be reaching the end of their journey.

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I thought of this but I thought if genetic drift were to happen it would be more of a gradual decline; a weakening / loss of vigor over time. This hit all at once. Like 12 years of good crop in a row immediately followed by 2 1/2 years of disaster in a row. Can genetic drift happen that fast?

Phytoplankton said:

Try some new stock and see if the same thing happens.

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This may be the only way forward, to nuke the old stock and start over again with new stock. If the same thing happens with the new stock though I'll probably just quit (growing, not medicating).

Has your water PH changed? What kind of dirt or hydro medium are you running?

Do you use well water, city water or RO water? You make no mention of your rooms humidity, pH of your feed solution etc.. Giving a lot of useless information on here to be honest.

I had a lot of issues with Jacks personally. I use Maxi series by General hydroponics. Haven't had issues since, if you follow their feed chart and check your pH is 5.8-6.2 then you'll be golden and get great results every time. Tip if you use RO filtered water then always add 2ml/gal calimagic and 3-5 ml/gal Armor Si to bring up and stabilize pH.

I can't find the thread but I had some nasty ugly ass looking plants that were being fed jacks exactly like the support staff & feed charts advised. Yellowy, weak growth. I used their RO 12-4-16 formula with Epsom salts in RO. Lots of issues unfortunately, went to Maxi and haven't had to think twice about anything. Just make sure your pH is always in range and never feed max strength right away, always taper up Maxi is strong stuff especially the Gro.

ebgms said:

Yes.



I thought of this but I thought if genetic drift were to happen it would be more of a gradual decline; a weakening / loss of vigor over time. This hit all at once. Like 12 years of good crop in a row immediately followed by 2 1/2 years of disaster in a row. Can genetic drift happen that fast?



This may be the only way forward, to nuke the old stock and start over again with new stock. If the same thing happens with the new stock though I'll probably just quit (growing, not medicating).

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It would be dependent on what mutation the plants have undergone (if any). It could be something that only happens in flower, or it could be a combination of small mutations that finally shut down a biological function (inability to assimilate N, P, K, or micronutrients) or weakend chlorophyll/chloroplasts, a disruption in transport of nutrients within the plant, no way to really know, but it's a possibility. Try growing from seed or get a diffent clone strain and see if the problems persist, then you'll know with greater certainty.

Russet mites?
I was growing successfully for a couple decades when I finally ran into an issue i couldn't figure out. Thought it might TMV after reading about it. Found out I was wrong. IMO, russetts are second to Spider Mites in terms of pain in the ass to get rid of.

You said from the middle, do you lollipop hard, to where the middle is basically the bottom of your plant? The reason I ask is because russett mites damage almost always starts at the bottom of the plant.

Do you have any pics of the whole plant, not just the leaves?

hotrodharley said:

That pretty much looks like phosphorus deficiency down to the dead leaves. Why? No idea.

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Same. IMO it’s one of the easiest to diagnose. First yellowing, then grey/brown dead patches which are dark.

Nutty sKunK said:

Same. IMO it’s one of the easiest to diagnose. First yellowing, then grey/brown dead patches which are dark.

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I don't know. If he had everything dialed for years, and all of a sudden, BAM, problems, that wouldn't be my first guess.

Unless Jack's is new to him and he's still trying to dial in a new nute. OP?

Johnny Lawrence said:

I don't know. If he had everything dialed for years, and all of a sudden, BAM, problems, that wouldn't be my first guess.

Unless Jack's is new to him and he's still trying to dial in a new nute. OP?

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Don’t know what’s causing it but the symptoms are classic P deficiency. N = yellow before dying. K = yellow edges which then proceed to burn. P leaves become soft and yellow then go dark grey/brown and crispy before falling off. All bottom of plant.

Other defs don’t resemble that.

More photos of plants would help diagnose.

Could be?

Either a lack of P or it’s getting antagonised by other nutrients, High cal/Mag can be to blame as they both interact with P uptake

HERE WE GO AGAIN (pics below):

This is my 11th crop in a row that has suffered a near total/total failure.

I noticed again every single leaf that is receiving light, conducting photosynthesis, is just being torched right off of the plant in short order. I have the lights 4ft away from the tops now and they are still burning to a crisp.

Just seven days ago, everything was fine, just fine. This time I managed to keep them healthy until about day 30 of flower. I had to work 5 times harder than normal but I did it. The buds were developing fast, no leaf problems, and there was a nice sweet smell in the cab that hasn't been there in years. I foolishly started to get my hopes up.

Then it was just like the rug was pulled out from under them all of a sudden and all the symptoms I described in the OP hit like a ton of bricks. This virus/insect/arachnid/w-e it is hits quick and it hits fast.

The plants are in the process of dying as I type this. I'll be lucky to get any kind of meaningful yield now.

Here are the pics for your consideration. Replies to questions asked upthread posted below.

Thank you for reading.

Tolerance Break said:

Has your water PH changed? What kind of dirt or hydro medium are you running?

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I don't know what the water ph is because I've never been able to find a ph meter that works properly (reads 7.0 in water without nutes in it). Therefore, I do a flush every other watering/feeding to reset the root zone and ensure the ph is in range, since I have no way to measure it.

Dirt, no hydro. I've tried every kind of dirt available at my local nursery and have nearly the exact same problems with every one. Espoma, Fox Farm Ocean Spray, Fox Farm Happy Frog, something called "Coast Of Maine" and the local nursery's own potting mix (the plants do the best in the local nursery mix despite it being the cheapest and full of uncomposted wood). It seems the more I pay for dirt the quicker the plants fail in it. The "Coast Of Maine" stuff was by far the most toxic to cannabis plants, they didn't even veg properly in it.

calvin.m16 said:

Do you use well water, city water or RO water? You make no mention of your rooms humidity, pH of your feed solution etc..

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Tap (city) water.

Room Humidity is 35-45%.

pH of feed solution unknown.