Inexpensive LED'S for a small grow

Do searches for whatever light you are looking at, dont take anybodys word for it, find a couple journals with 1 pound grows and see what they use, if you cant find journals that show the light pulling a pound that will tell you everything you need to know, a pound is a lot of bud with led and isnt going to come cheap. Greengeenes apache 600 will do it but thats $2000 and a far cry from the $300 you were talking about.

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With cheap China Arrays and some other cheap red diodes you will get 600W for about 330$ if you go DIY, with heatsinks and stuff i guess it would be <400$. Those cheap Arrays grew me about 0,8g/W on my first grow ever on soil with a lot of fkups. Im not so sure if its worth spending 2000$ instead for some more grams, as i think im not even at the Limit of what These cheapies can do.

A really good idea would also be ,to change the leds (or have a custom spectrum ordered ) in those cheap arrays .

I'll probably give it a go ,at the future ....
It is a very cheap way to have a working (but not the most efficient ) led light .
And yield better than a 400 Watt HID ...

For example ...I like this one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Reflector-3...0744468?pt=US_Hydroponics&hash=item56602ced14


If I was to have it ...
I'd grab my solder gun and .....

-Enhance cooling (better fans , heatsink,thermal compounds,etc )

-Change most of the leds ...
I'd toss the two bands of blue and the IR 730 ..
Maybe even some of the reds..(too many ,for my taste )
Replace them with NW 5000K and WW 3000K ones ..
Maybe I'd install couple of 390-410 nm violets ,also..

And I would have myself 96 led light ,for under 200$ ...
(like 4x Astir panels )
A really great light (way better spectrum and yields ) than the original one ...
( red 620-630 ,deep red 650-670 ,NW 5000K ,WW 3000K ,violet 390-410 nm )

Researching is good ,building/ buying a $$$$ led light is better ...
But ..
It really comes down,to what is cheap ,practical,replaceable,working ,etc,etc ...

Ferraris and Lambos are great cars ....
But they need big budget to drive and own ...
Let alone the extra care and service ...

I'd be fine with a Honda,also ....
Maybe a slightly "tuned" one ,eh ?

A very good idea ,indeed ...

I have read good things about the suggested light. Looking at that nice Panel i figured i must have a mistake in my calc. 12x 100 Watt Warmwhite, each with a 50W Driver will be about 260$ for 600W. Arranged in 1:1 Warmwhite vs Red-arrays in 100W Arrays will be about 320$ for 600W. 100W Array @ 50W will greatly increase Efficiency, about 15-20% i measured in increased lightoutput, with a simple solar cell and a multimeter. From my first grow I learned that next time I will be better off shredding my big Panel and be using 4-6 smaller panels instead.

lax123 said:

I have read good things about the suggested light. Looking at that nice Panel i figured i must have a mistake in my calc. 12x 100 Watt Warmwhite, each with a 50W Driver will be about 260$ for 600W. Arranged in 1:1 Warmwhite vs Red-arrays in 100W Arrays will be about 320$ for 600W. 100W Array @ 50W will greatly increase Efficiency, about 15-20% i measured in increased lightoutput, with a simple solar cell and a multimeter. From my first grow I learned that next time I will be better off shredding my big Panel and be using 4-6 smaller panels instead.

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That one is a loooong talk ...
You have the good leds and the asian market leds ...


I'm not going to point out the importance of "spreading the light power " and the importance of "diffused light" ....

In nature ,very often,if not always ,you see different at parts of the plant e.g the buds mature with different timing.
( lower/deep buds mature earlier due to more FR wls ...)

So ,with leds ,one has the 'opportunity' to spread the power (many smaller arrays ) and blend better (diffuse ) the different wls of leds ...

Asian leds (cheap) can be used for this purpose .
Lots of them ,in multiple arrays ,driven low ....

Astir panels have proven ,in every grow ,that it is a fine way ,to use those cheap leds .
At ~ 140-150 Watts (at plug !!! ) those asians ( some of the highest quality of them ) can easily beat the yields and quality of a 400 Watt HPS .

From Asian reds ,search for 640 nm reds .Leave the 660 nm leds from Asia market ,aside ...

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Epistar-640nm-led-chip-1w-high_1662032983.html?s=p

Combine those 640 nm reds with some good old Bridgelux chiped PC white leds NW 5000K and WW 3000 K ( 1:1: 1 ) and there you are ...

Full cycle led light ,that is able to grow and produce way better than HID ,with less than half of the energy consumed.

For example : 144 leds @350mA... 6x arrays of 24 leds ...
Each array having 8x 640nm ,8x x NW 5000K and 8x WW 3000K ...
A more than great mix ....
It beats any 400 Watt HPS ,anytime ...

lax123 said:

With cheap China Arrays and some other cheap red diodes you will get 600W for about 330$ if you go DIY, with heatsinks and stuff i guess it would be <400$. Those cheap Arrays grew me about 0,8g/W on my first grow ever on soil with a lot of fkups. Im not so sure if its worth spending 2000$ instead for some more grams, as i think im not even at the Limit of what These cheapies can do.

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Im not suggesting he buy anything, the exact opposite actually, im suggesting he research whatever light he is looking at and see what others are getting with it, and then make his decision. My only point was he isnt going to grow a pound with $300 worth of either cheapies or expensive ones and if he sees a few journals where the vipars pull 3-4ozs a light he will obviously need 4 of them because that seems to be the average. I would tell him to buy a hid if I were suggesting something, he just needs to research the light hes looking at and not blindly take anyones word for it without documented grows to support it.

stardustsailor said:

That one is a loooong talk ...
You have the good leds and the asian market leds ...


I'm not going to point out the importance of "spreading the light power " and the importance of "diffused light" ....

In nature ,very often,if not always ,you see different at parts of the plant e.g the buds mature with different timing.
( lower/deep buds mature earlier due to more FR wls ...)

So ,with leds ,one has the 'opportunity' to spread the power (many smaller arrays ) and blend better (diffuse ) the different wls of leds ...

Asian leds (cheap) can be used for this purpose .
Lots of them ,in multiple arrays ,driven low ....

Astir panels have proven ,in every grow ,that it is a fine way ,to use those cheap leds .
At ~ 140-150 Watts (at plug !!! ) those asians ( some of the highest quality of them ) can easily beat the yields and quality of a 400 Watt HPS .

From Asian reds ,search for 640 nm reds .Leave the 660 nm leds from Asia market ,aside ...

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Epistar-640nm-led-chip-1w-high_1662032983.html?s=p

Combine those 640 nm reds with some good old Bridgelux chiped PC white leds NW 5000K and WW 3000 K ( 1:1: 1 ) and there you are ...

Full cycle led light ,that is able to grow and produce way better than HID ,with less than half of the energy consumed.

For example : 144 leds @350mA... 6x arrays of 24 leds ...
Each array having 8x 640nm ,8x x NW 5000K and 8x WW 3000K ...
A more than great mix ....
It beats any 400 Watt HPS ,anytime ...

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I have yet to see a 200 watt led pull a pound but iv seen several 400s pull 8+ozs so as far as a led producing more at less than half the energy im callin bullshit. If that were even remotely true id own several.

288 Watts of 640nm -NW 5000K -WW 3000K .
All asian leds .Passive cooling.
On Autofems ..

A bit less than a pound with ~290 Watts of leds ....
Asian,cheap ones ....

stardustsailor said:

A bit less than a pound with ~290 Watts of leds ....
Asian,cheap ones ....

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Great, you got less than a pound with 300 watts, not over 1 pound with 200 watts like you said. I dont run 400s but 8+ oz 400 grows are everywhere so if you want to say led will out yield a 400 with better bud at half the power show me a 1+ pound 200 watt led grow. That grow doesnt exist. Watt for watt led is better in a conventional overhead light grow.

started with
week 1 48 watt
week 2 96 watt
week 3 184 watt

week 4 248 watt








week 6 248 watt




week 9 272 Watt
















week 12 288 watt

8+ oz is about 226+ grams ....

With 400 Watt lamp + ~40 Watts ballast = ~440 Watts at plug ...

290 Watts at plug got almost 14 oz ....

And those ~300 Watss weren't there from start ...
Way less than half the energy consumed ...

Overhead what ?
What do you mean by " Watt for watt led is better in a conventional overhead light grow."

Leds have 'beaten' hids long time ago.
Thing is that knowledge about the rest of the details of a grow,
is wide spread for HIDs
and almost non-exist for leds ....
Specialy with leds ...

Cause most growers do not know how to grow with leds ,while most know from average to good,growing with Hids,
that doesn't mean that hids are better from leds ...
No way ...
Far more advanced tech ....
It's way more expensive ,though ..
That is the obstacle ,that still keeps HID lighting still 'alive' in many illumination appliances ..
.....
Not for long ...

And a small detail to clear things up ...
I mentioned " way less than half the energy consumed "


Energy=power x time

HID :
4weeks veg 18/6 = 440 Watt x 18x 7 x 4 = 221,76 KWh

10 weeks flowering 12/12 = 440 watt x 12 x 7 x10 = 369.6 KWh ....

Total :591.36 kwh


Leds :

Veg
1st week 18/6 48 watt: 48x7x18= 6.048 KWh
2nd 96 watt : 12.096 KWh
3rd 192 watt : 24.192 KWh
4th 192 watt : 24.192 KWh
Veg total : 66.528 KWh

Flowering 10 weeks 288 watts 12 hours daily

288 x 12 x 7x10 =241.920 KWh
Total : 308.448 KWh


Half the energy ..

Hid 8oz+
Led 12+ oz,a true average with those particular cheap asian leds (Astir panels ) for the 300 W at plug

So?
Ok maybe not less than half (with cheap leds at least ),but with half energy ,+50% in yield ....

stardustsailor said:

8+ oz is about 226+ grams ....

With 400 Watt lamp + ~40 Watts ballast = ~440 Watts at plug ...

290 Watts at plug got almost 14 oz ....

And those ~300 Watss weren't there from start ...
Way less than half the energy consumed ...

Overhead what ?
What do you mean by " Watt for watt led is better in a conventional overhead light grow."

Leds have 'beaten' hids long time ago.
Thing is that knowledge about the rest of the details of a grow,
is wide spread for HIDs
and almost non-exist for leds ....
Specialy with leds ...

Cause most growers do not know how to grow with leds ,while most know from average to good,growing with Hids,
that doesn't mean that hids are better from leds ...
No way ...
Far more advanced tech ....
It's way more expensive ,though ..
That is the obstacle ,that still keeps HID lighting still 'alive' in many illumination appliances ..
.....
Not for long ...

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Great, your right and im wrong, there you have it op, grab yourself a cheap 200 watt led cheapy and you will get your pound, its been proven, I was wrong.

Jbone77 said:

Great, your right and im wrong, there you have it op, grab yourself a cheap 200 watt led cheapy and you will get your pound, its been proven, I was wrong.

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Well ,by all means it was not my intention to prove you wrong and climb on you as being right .
We 're having a disagreement .
And that in fact is on of the healthiest things of interacting minds .
I agree with you at many points .
And yes ..Not all cheapies or high tech led lights can grow good ,neither all growers can ...

But I'll tell you this ..
Myself I own some $.$$$ Diy Led systems ,way better than those in the market ,at same price range...

Still ,there are guys like the one who had the grow shown above,which in every grow ,they beat me in yields with their cheap little arrays ..
Yes,it is true ...

I do not know about you .
I know that ,here in this country ,quite enough people get 12+oz with 300W of cheap leds ..
The economic crisis thing ,has pushed plenty of growers to leds,here..
Mainly cheap asian ones ..
Lots of DIY designs ,all over ...
Most of them ,doing the job more than fine ..
At average with half the energy consumed,they get increased yields by ~ 50% with leds ,relative to Hids /...

lol where is that damn "like" button great picshow.

I could imagine a Problem with using led might be the People using it.
I think led attracts a lot of noobos. Just like me.
Without led i would not ever even have considered growing myself... I loved the idea of DIY and leds r super cool, of course.

(not considering the Problems I had as low temps, unknown strains -phenos with either high or very low yield, high humidity, wrong feeding etc..)
-so here i am a bloody noob with his 0,8g/W, its easy to say leds suck. (well i actually think i didnt do too bad) I guess grows by growers who have an experience of less then like 4 Ledgrows should not be even considered representative at all, as there is a learning curve to it...

stardustsailor said:

Well ,by all means it was not my intention to prove you wrong and climb on you as being right .
We 're having a disagreement .
And that in fact is on of the healthiest things of interacting minds .
I agree with you at many points .
And yes ..Not all cheapies or high tech led lights can grow good ,neither all growers can ...

But I'll tell you this ..
Myself I own some $.$$$ Diy Led systems ,way better than those in the market ,at same price range...

Still ,there are guys like the one who had the grow shown above,which in every grow ,they beat me in yields with their cheap little arrays ..
Yes,it is true ...

I do not know about you .
I know that ,here in this country ,quite enough people get 12+oz with 300W of cheap leds ..
The economic crisis thing ,has pushed plenty of growers to leds,here..
Mainly cheap asian ones ..
Lots of DIY designs ,all over ...
Most of them ,doing the job more than fine ..
At average with half the energy consumed,they get increased yields by ~ 50% with leds ,relative to Hids /...

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I think the diy guys are doing great, no problem with them at all. I think the big manufacturers charge too much for what they deliver. As far as what I meant by a conventional hid grow, I mean plants under a hid where hid wastes more light, that same wasted light can be utilized in a bare bulb vert grow and I've never seen any other single light come even remotely close to touching a bare bulb vert 600 or 1000. I have a buddy that has 4 vipar 500s that each pull 300 watts with the 5 watters, he doesn't use them and I may throw them in a tent with some white russian here in a month or so, haven't made up my mind because I'm not sure if it's worth it. I've seen plenty of people say the vipars are decent and then get 4-5 ozs off 5-600 true watts, that's not worth it to me, but if I find better info il give em a run. We shall see

stardustsailor said:

Well ,by all means it was not my intention to prove you wrong and climb on you as being right .
We 're having a disagreement .
And that in fact is on of the healthiest things of interacting minds .
I agree with you at many points .
And yes ..Not all cheapies or high tech led lights can grow good ,neither all growers can ...

But I'll tell you this ..
Myself I own some $.$$$ Diy Led systems ,way better than those in the market ,at same price range...

Still ,there are guys like the one who had the grow shown above,which in every grow ,they beat me in yields with their cheap little arrays ..
Yes,it is true ...

I do not know about you .
I know that ,here in this country ,quite enough people get 12+oz with 300W of cheap leds ..
The economic crisis thing ,has pushed plenty of growers to leds,here..
Mainly cheap asian ones ..
Lots of DIY designs ,all over ...
Most of them ,doing the job more than fine ..
At average with half the energy consumed,they get increased yields by ~ 50% with leds ,relative to Hids /...

Click to expand...

Good points stardust, anything can be done. Yes, there is some risk and some homework required with the cheap/chinese LED's, but there are many panels out there that will do the job just fine without a huge investment. DIY if that's your thing even better but for those who buy, and those willing to take some risk, can reap rewards, NOW, not tomorrow, next year, they are available NOW. This does not discount higher end or more expensive brands, but it does give smaller growers or those looking to get their feet wet with LED some inexpensive options. Some of these panels are so inexpensive now that even if they only work for a few runs you've more than gained your return on investment, all the while saving huge on operation costs, not just wattage, but exhaust, incoming fresh air, cooler/more manageable temps etc.

My view is the lights are important, but, how they are run, how the environment is maintained, medium, nutes (organic or synthetic), water quality etc. all play into a successful grow/yield. You could put an Apache LED (most expensive I believe) into a newb's hands and get a couple of ounces, and a cheap chinese $200 LED into the hands of someone who knows what they're doing and double or triple that. The lights are part of the equation, don't blame the lights on all bad yields... And don't discount LED's, there are many examples here and other sites showing LED's (cheap or expensive) can grow great weed, at lower cost per gram by far than traditional lighting.

Growing cheap and successfully enough with leds ,I'm afraid it is one way road ...

And that it the DIY way ...
Which in case of " cheap and successfully enough ' it follows pretty 'strict' rules ...

Some advices-guidances from someone who lives in a place,where plenty of people use cheap asian leds and do actually grow
better and more herb , than with HID,in most of cases ....


1) Use many multiple small panels:
a)cooling of leds becomes easy,most of cases passive(without fan) if heatsink is large enough .
Do not use more than 30 leds driven @350 mA for an panel (pcb-heatsink surface )area of 8" x 6" ( 20 x 15 cm )
b) light blends/diffuses better with multiple panels.
c)More leds are needed ,but they run more efficient and output power is evenly spreaded all over leaf canopy and flowers/fruits.

2) Use the 8mm type of led .

Easy to install-solder-unsolder-replace.Extremely easy .
Very cheap.
Those with genuine Epistar chip (620-630-660 ) and
Bridgelux chip(an older chip that company has sold to chinese factories ) Phosphor Converted white or blue leds ,cost ~ .5-.3 $ each for a 100 pcs buy ....

3) Use the appropriate Constant Current Drivers ....
Run your leds between 320-600 mA .No more .
Add the voltages of leds ,and choose the right output voltage range of the CC driver.
For example .
A panel with 24 leds . 16 whites (3.5 V ) and 8 reds ( 2.4 V )
16x3.5 + 8x 2.4 =75.2 Volt .
To run this panel you need a CC driver of @320-600mA with a range of output voltage 60-80 volts ...

Avoid CV power units,Zener diodes and resistors ...


4) Use Neutral whites 6000-4000K (preferably 5000K ) along with Warm Whites 3000K as the main "light core" .

(Alternatively ,instead of NW ,Cool Whites up to 10.000K can be used.Higher efficiency ,but they must be used in less pieces ,than NW.
Coverage can become an issue.They have about 20-25% blue wls,at average.)

Stay away from WW 2700 High CRI .Asian ones are of extremely low efficiency.Same for high CRI neutrals,if you find any...

For 660 nm deep reds ,trust only asian leds with genuine epistar chips.A x40 lens can help identify the genuinity of a chip.(Comparing the chip pattern with the original epistar one )

You do not want any blue leds during flowering.It's a no-no .

640 nm leds are the most efficient for both chlorophylls ..
..
( reduction of nitrate concentration means that all the stored nitrate ions inside plant cell vacuoles,where 'exausted' from elevated photosynthetic action . )

....

Happy grows !