In defense of the bailout and the Federal Reserve
- Thread starter Doctor Pot
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Doctor Pot
Well-Known Member
fluc⋅tu⋅ate
 
 /ˈflʌk
[fluhk-choo-eyt] Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -at⋅ed, -at⋅ing. –verb (used without object) 1. to change continually; shift back and forth; vary irregularly: The price of gold fluctuated wildly last month. 2. to move back and forth in waves.
Yeah, and my savings is invested in gold and platinum.
Are you kidding? You don't know anything about bank runs because there haven't been any in a long time, but that's one of the problems with a gold standard. Everyone always thinks every modern crisis is the end of the world. News flash: it's not, and it's been a lot worse in the past.
If a currency is based on a commodity, then its value changes with the commodity. Why do you think this is a good thing? And if our money is worth nothing, then I'll be happy to take yours.
Trust me, if we were on the gold standard right now, you'd be complaining even louder about how bankers were manipulating the gold supply and screwing us all over.
Wow this really is Masochistic isn't it Doc, LOL. But we just can't resist can we!!
Well I'm pretty sure they (Clinton I think) changed the rules reguarding the CPI to take things out like energy costs or when a price of a commadaty shoots up for one reason or another they remove it from the equation. Doc your smart to be invested in gold. Wish I had the cash to do that. Maybe when Obama gets in he will spread the bailout love to us, and we can get into the Gold market before the Deflationary spike is over.
Well I'm pretty sure they (Clinton I think) changed the rules reguarding the CPI to take things out like energy costs or when a price of a commadaty shoots up for one reason or another they remove it from the equation. Doc your smart to be invested in gold. Wish I had the cash to do that. Maybe when Obama gets in he will spread the bailout love to us, and we can get into the Gold market before the Deflationary spike is over.
FLoJo
Well-Known Member
fluc⋅tu⋅ate
my bad, i used the wrong word, way to point it out.. doesnt mean that the concept that i conveyed was not correct.. what do you want me to say? it will end up to be a large deviation from its original value. tʃuˌeɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation
verb, -at⋅ed, -at⋅ing. –verb (used without object) 1. to change continually; shift back and forth; vary irregularly: The price of gold fluctuated wildly last month. 2. to move back and forth in waves.
Yeah, and my savings is invested in gold and platinum.
theres an old saying that goes, if theres one thing history can teach us, is that it cant teach us shit.
i dont need to know anything about bank runs because they dont matter in todays society.. for the most part any form of currency we have is a digital number, and a large amount of people never even handle cash.
there wasnt a run on banks because of the gold standard. yea because of the fdic people wouldnt make runs on banks now, but it doesnt matter because they are losing money with it sitting in the bank or not, because we are actually being robbed of our money through our own money.
everyone thinks every modern crisis is the end of the world till it pans out, yes it has been worse in the past but that doesnt mean that there is not a potential for it to be FAR worse in the future. and by all conventional wisdom, and looking at what has happend to countries like iceland, we can see that the path of trillions of dollars of debt, rampant inflation, and massive deficits is not going to lead us to the land of milk and honey. america and the life we have built around it was built on self sufficiency, surplus, hard work, and industry, not corporate bailouts and socialist pseudo capitalism. we have been increasing standard of living, and decreasing output and the bridge can only stretch so far.. i dont know why this is so hard to comprehend
yes i have seen you use that line before, and nobody will send you their money because despite it being crap, its the only crap weve got. the point of this discussion is not wheter the dollar is an accepted form of currency.. we all know it is..
when a currency is based on a commodity, at least it is backed by something real, and is more stable than a currency built soley on confidence.. our currency is nothing but paper, backed by words, if it fails there is nothing concrete to back it up, it never increases in real value, only manipulated in value by the fed and the powers at be, it only decreases in value because more and more is constantly being printed. the more that is printed, the less valueble it becomes, because our money is nothing but a debt. debt is not a commodity because it can default.
they already are manipulating the gold prices to keep them artificially lower. there is plenty in mainstream media about mints not being able to mint any gold coins because there is not enough gold available, there is a global shortage because of everyone picking it up. there is still TRILLIONS of dollars in paper traded gold, and if they tried to turn it in for a hard commodity, there would not be enough around which would send the price skyrocketing, and piss off plenty of people at the same time.
our founding fathers hated centralized banks, some even embracing it on headstones to the grave. the framers held these ideals, wrote our constitution and bill of rights which has protected us from our gov. which they continually try to break down, and anything that our gov. tries to break down from our founding fathers makes me believe in it even more, because they want power and will stop at nothing to obtain it.
FLo
medicineman
New Member
Yeah, and my savings is invested in gold and platinum.
I'm guessing you lost a bit lately, like about 20%. I hope that all those idiots that bought oil futures for 150.00 a barrel are taking it up the old arse.
I'm guessing you lost a bit lately, like about 20%. I hope that all those idiots that bought oil futures for 150.00 a barrel are taking it up the old arse.
FLoJo
Well-Known Member
oh they are... and according to lindsay williams its gonna stay at around 50 for 6 months to a year. if you go listen to some of his interviews and audios, he has predicted just about every trend in the oil market in the last decade with extreme precision.. he gets info straight from oil company execs. just goes to show how a supposed free market based on supply and demand can be manipulated to the extreme.
japan's stock market is only like 20% of what it was 18 years ago...you all will never learn ...(sigh)....it will work this time.....sure it will..their recession only lasted 18 years so far...i wonder how long our's is going to last because of idiots who understand NOTHING?
Doctor Pot
Well-Known Member
Actually I moved all my money to gold and platinum AFTER the prices bottomed out. I've actually made like $700 since I switched. Of course I lost $5K in mutual funds first, so I've got a ways to go yet.
When I first posted the thread, I added the tag "masochism" knowing how popular the bailout and Federal Reserve are here.
I can't find any evidence of Clinton substantially altering the CPI formula. Not saying it didn't happen, I just can't verify it.If I was smart I would have cashed all my mutual funds two months ago, waited a few weeks, THEN invested in gold. I still have less money than I started with, but the gap is shrinking.
The dollar slowly lost value, in a predictable way. I wasn't trying to be a dick, just saying if you understand what the word means, you can understand better what I was trying to say.
I'm a fan of the other one, "those that can't remember history are condemned to repeat it."
Bank runs most certainly WOULD matter if we had a gold standard. If people are being robbed of their money, who's stealing it? The only ones you can really point the finger at are US treasury bond holders. Lots of people hold US treasury bonds including me.
The US is actually one of the most productive nations per worker, it's just that the average US wage is very high compared to the rest of the world. But our standard of living is also very high so the answer isn't going to be lowering wages. And look, I've said this is a problem. The bailout is a short-term solution, but one that we need in order to be able to even consider long-term solutions. I could go into a lot of detail on what our current problems are. For instance, most new inventions are still developed in the US. The US is great if you're among the elite. But it is starting to suck if you don't have the real skills necessary to become part of the elite.
If you want to trade that crap for gold, it's quite easy. Just search for gold bullion on eBay or something. You can even buy gold coins. I know nobody will send me their paper money, but that question was designed to elicit an answer to my question: why is an inelastic currency necessarily better than an elastic one? What can't you do with modern dollars that you could do with gold-backed dollars?
Under the current system, the Fed is able to manipulate the value of money under government oversight. If the dollar was backed by gold, any fool with a lot of money or gold could manipulate the value of money.
lol, you've been watching those "commemorative gold coin" commercials too much. "The mints aren't able to keep up with demand, so call now to GUARANTEE you'll get your very own gold coins!" Seriously though, the price of gold fell like a stone about a month ago. They're actually closing mines in South Africa and shit.
The framers eventually created a central bank, it was Andrew Jackson that got rid of it. He was like the 7th president. Ever wonder how he could get rid of the central bank if there wasn't one that already existed?
Just sayin'...
the federal reserve honest?you got to be shitting me? that is the most corrupt ponzie scheme ever and it is due to fail..sounds logical...the solution to massive amounts of debt..is more massive amounts of debt? you need to go look at some prime examples of what you are looking at happen in this country..how about a 18 year recession in japan that still haunts them to this day...how about zimbabwe..just a few of the many many examples of what is going to happen in the current course of action this country is headed down..honestly..they do not have the american peoples interest at heart..they have their own corrupt interest's and that of their rich corrupt buddies..the politicians main goal is to retain power..at all costs...80% of the american people were against these bail outs who again to our representitives represent?i know its not the people of this country.....they did it anyway didnt they? well where did the m oney go?they just spend 6 trillion dollars of our money in the last six months.you would think your government and federal reserve putting almost 50K dollars per family would have a effect on the economy wouldnt you?if so..why is it getting worse..oh yea..and by the way...we are going to have to pay back the no1 115 trillion dollars back at some point in time...oh..by the way..your familys share of the money these crook's looted from us..without our permission i might add.is 1.5 million dollars..so you thing we can pay it back as a nation hu?LOL ok...everyone fork up their mill and a half..this country is run by complete idiots..and full of complete idiots voting for them...imainge..politicians buying your vote with YOUR money?..the government cant give you shit.unless it first takes it from you..
Doctor Pot
Well-Known Member
The solution to debt isn't more debt, unless you're the Federal Reserve, who can legally generate money out of thin air. That's not to say the deficit should get out of hand; it shouldn't, but as long as they contain it within certain levels, it won't cause the sort of ridiculous inflation that's happened in other nations.the federal reserve honest?you got to be shitting me? that is the most corrupt ponzie scheme ever and it is due to fail..sounds logical...the solution to massive amounts of debt..is more massive amounts of debt? you need to go look at some prime examples of what you are looking at happen in this country..how about a 18 year recession in japan that still haunts them to this day...how about zimbabwe..just a few of the many many examples of what is going to happen in the current course of action this country is headed down..honestly..they do not have the american peoples interest at heart..they have their own corrupt interest's and that of their rich corrupt buddies..the politicians main goal is to retain power..at all costs...80% of the american people were against these bail outs who again to our representitives represent?i know its not the people of this country.....they did it anyway didnt they? well where did the m oney go?they just spend 6 trillion dollars of our money in the last six months.you would think your government and federal reserve putting almost 50K dollars per family would have a effect on the economy wouldnt you?if so..why is it getting worse..oh yea..and by the way...we are going to have to pay back the no1 115 trillion dollars back at some point in time...oh..by the way..your familys share of the money these crook's looted from us..without our permission i might add.is 1.5 million dollars..so you thing we can pay it back as a nation hu?LOL ok...everyone fork up their mill and a half..this country is run by complete idiots..and full of complete idiots voting for them...imainge..politicians buying your vote with YOUR money?..the government cant give you shit.unless it first takes it from you..
All of your numbers are wrong. (115 trillion dollars? seriously? And how can the federal government spend 6 trillion is 6 months if the annual federal budget is only 2.6 trillion?) I can't really respond to you if all your numbers are grossly inaccurate.
the federal reserve generated what the federal government didnt generate..and you know as well as i do that the federal reserve prints and distributes money as DEBT...the federal reserve..who no one voted for lent and gauranteed like 4 trillion dollars worth of debt that the tax payers are on the hook for..you mean to tell me you didnt know the size of the unfunded liability's due to social security and medicare are the size of 100 trillion dollars..that is right my friend...100 trillion..with a T...the national debt was at around 10 trillion just six months ago..that is the debt they tell you about all the time...they have increased the national debt..they being the federal government..congress the pres. around 6 trillion dollars in 6 months?do you know what the discount window is?did you know it is now open to every tom dick and harry to borrow from..did you know the federal reserve lent like 4 trillion dollars of our money out the window and wont tell anyone who it was lent to?..didnt you know congress is pissed off about it..or at least some of them are trying to act pissed off through smirks and smiles....man.you got ALOT to learn
Doctor Pot
Well-Known Member
Ok, then why don't you provide some links to educate me?
Some of the debt is held by foreign banks, but most by US banks. The Federal Reserve is owned and managed by both the US Federal Government and private shareholders.
FLoJo
Well-Known Member
the federal government has NO oversight over the federal reserve.. alan greenspan just stated that a few weeks ago.. and what us banks?? all the big banks in america are arms of international conglomerates and at the very least they have more foreign interest than domestic..
read the news and educate yourself....if you didnt know that there was over 100 TRILLION dollars in unfunded liabilities what else do you not know?ALOT..it would take me decades to educate you...
Doctor Pot
Well-Known Member
You can come up with any number you want to in order to measure unfunded liabilities, but it doesn't mean shit unless you attach a time frame to it. If the annual government deficit is $100, then over the next one trillion years, we have a projected $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities. Get it?read the news and educate yourself....if you didnt know that there was over 100 TRILLION dollars in unfunded liabilities what else do you not know?ALOT..it would take me decades to educate you...
My point was to get you to post a link so I could examine the point of view of someone who had something intelligible to say, rather than you. If you're too lazy to back up your tirades with actual facts, there's not much I can say to you.
hom36rown
Well-Known Member
Our national debt is our problem. Our trade defecits, budget defecits, the public's immense debt, a decline in manufacturing based jobs and a rise in service sector jobs, a decline in saving, our fiat currency, infaltion due to our over "accomodating" fed, living beyond our means, political expediency...these, among other things, are what is causing our staggering national debt and this is what is going to cause our economy to collapse. Printing money isnt going to fix any of these problems. The only thing it does, and of course the gov't knows this very well, is ease the burden our debts becuase we pay them back in less valuable dollars. But it also robs everyone of wealth by devaluing the dollar, and prolongs the pain in the end.. The only people that do benefit, of course, are the employess and major stock holders of the corportaions being bailed out. Saving failed corporations won't save our economy...so it seems we are going to have to address these problems without a decent economy.
I don't know id I'd say doomed, but I would say we're pretty fucked. We are in for some tough times ahead, that is for sure...and the worst thing is the gov't will probably resort to more authoritarian tendacies, as the trend seems to be...meaning less and less liberty. Naive people will look more and more to the people that got us into this mess to solve our problems. The best plan is to let the free market do it's thing, and let these failed corporations go bankrupt. That will mean a major and much needed recession...a lot of companies will go bankrupt, and unemployment will run rampant...prices will skyrocket and our standard of living will go down drastically. There will be shortages of energy and food, and crime will soar, and we will mosy likely become a police state. Now this really really fuckin sucks, but all of this is going to happen ragardless of whether or not we waste our money protecting failed businessmen's pension plans. Recovery will be slow and painful, but it will happen. We are going to also have to make massive spending cuts...that should be the first thing we do. stop these stupid fuckin wars fimmediately, stop foreign aid, cut social programs...get rid of everything but the bare neccessities.
Why have inflation at all though? All inflation does is distort the maket. Like with the housing bubble for example, inflation due to the fed keeping interest rates too low for too long manifested itself as a housing bubble. Inflation is not low, do not let the cpi fool you. The gov't has a vested interest in keeping inflation high, while keeping it "officially" low. And we havent even felt the full effect of the inflation of the past decades thanks to the bretton woods conference...since the dollar is the worlds reserve currency, central banks have been hoarding us dollars for years, so in a sense we have been selling off our inflation, but all of these foreign owned us dollars will come home to roost eventually, at which point we will feel the true weight of all of the money we have created over the years.
If we had practiced sound banking practices, we would not have had to worry about a run on gold. The gold standard was dropped because it inhibited inflation, and wouldnt allow us to run huge trade and budget defecits...which is of course is why we have such a huge debt now, and why we are so fucked!
Again, don't let the cpi index fool you...it doesnt include food or energy, or anything it considers to be succeptible to an abrupt price change. Also cpi is measured using a 12 month trailing core, which is ridiculous, as this eliminates any volatilty even more, and weights the results with lower values. Theres also examples of where inflation acutally puts downward pressure on the cpi...like with the housing bubble for example...as home loans became easier to attain, more rentres became buyers...casuing rent prices to go down, causing a significant drop in cpi...as rent is a major component. Also like I mentioned before, we havent even begun to feel the full weight of the money supply, due to all of the us dollars in foreign cental banks that havent entered our economy.
FLoJo
Well-Known Member
I think everyone on this thread needs to go to youtube and watch http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3ueEfRXZCVA i think it does a good job of explaining what is wrong with our money system.
it starts out by talking about income tax, but later moves into the whole federal reserve system, international banking, and current trends such as the real id act, RFID chips etc. which will lead to world government
it starts out by talking about income tax, but later moves into the whole federal reserve system, international banking, and current trends such as the real id act, RFID chips etc. which will lead to world government
medicineman
New Member
Sorry folks, the law is the 16th amendment, and yes, it was ratified. So go on with your wishful thinking that there is no law, refuse to pay or file, and sit back and enjoy your limited time of freedom, Someone will be coming for you shortly. Do I like to pay taxes? Well hell no, I'm not stupid, I hate taxes as much as the next guy, especially since I have no say in how they're spent. It's just that this arguement about they are not legal is bullshit. If for no other reason, they are legal because they have been continually applied since 1916 and that is a lot of common law background. So pay up and lodge your complaints with the appropriate agencies and learn to live with them.
FLoJo
Well-Known Member
there actually is no law which is why people have continuously beat it in court. the supreme court ruled on several occasions that the 16th gave no new right to taxes. the people that lose dont have money for good lawyers, or get judges that wont allow supreme court decisions to be allowed as evidence. there are several cases that prove this point.
if you know about the law, and can cite it, i believe there is still a 50,000 dollar prize for someone who can prove that the law exists.
if you know about the law, and can cite it, i believe there is still a 50,000 dollar prize for someone who can prove that the law exists.