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mickey oneil · Mar 4, 2015

So, I contacted the sales manager at KIND to ask what diodes are being used and where they are made. This is the email trail... So... Did he answer my question??? Has anyone ever seen the diodes that are actually in the KIND?

puffenuff · Mar 4, 2015

Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me.

mickey oneil · Mar 4, 2015

puffenuff said:
Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me.

I get what you're saying if in fact it's not true. I guess I'm just a bit confused. I see ppl on this site saying that they're made with cheap Chinese diodes, but their sales mgr blatantly says everything is manufactured in the US. So is he meandering around the question or are ppl on this sight misinformed?

mickey oneil · Mar 4, 2015

mickey oneil said:
I get what you're saying if in fact it's not true. I guess I'm just a bit confused. I see ppl on this site saying that they're made with cheap Chinese diodes, but their sales mgr blatantly says everything is manufactured in the US. So is he meandering around the question or are ppl on this sight misinformed?

*site*

fobesterdam · Mar 4, 2015

this site > ALL secret sauce SALESMAN.

mickey oneil · Mar 4, 2015

I def hear what you're saying FOB, but I've heard ppl say that KIND = (Insert all the other mid level grow light co's here). I've never seen "the innards" of the KIND units so I did what what I thought would settle it--I contacted the company direct and they vouch that everything is manufactured here in the states.

mickey oneil · Mar 4, 2015

mickey oneil said:
I def hear what you're saying FOB, but I've heard ppl say that KIND = (Insert all the other mid level grow light co's here). I've never seen "the innards" of the KIND units so I did what what I thought would settle it--I contacted the company direct and they vouch that everything is manufactured here in the states.

I'm not saying they're incapable of being dishonest, I just have no reason to believe that they're lying.

fobesterdam · Mar 4, 2015

bottom line would be.

they arent PROUD of the EXACT components.

no reason to roll the dice or have faith. all the documentation and insight you need is right here. for free. no sales pitch.

sure shot equipment would be what id research, not character judgements of random salesmen. good luck with your decision and DUE DILIGENCE "kind" sir. bongsmilie

but yea. sounds like a bunch of vague bullschit to me. ive learned that much on here. you can too. :bigjoint:

mickey oneil · Mar 4, 2015

fobesterdam said:
bottom line would be.

they arent PROUD of the EXACT components.

no reason to roll the dice or have faith. all the documentation and insight you need is right here. for free. no sales pitch.

sure shot equipment would be what id research, not character judgements of random salesmen. good luck with your decision and DUE DILIGENCE "kind" sir.

but yea. sounds like a bunch of vague bullschit to me. ive learned that much on here. you can too.

Thanks man! Appreciate the honesty and insight.

az2000 · Mar 4, 2015

mickey oneil said:
their sales mgr blatantly says everything is manufactured in the US.

I didn't see anything about being made in the US. All I saw was "in our factory" which could cover a relationship with a contract house in China.

Trust me. As much as Kind, Lush, HydrogrowLED, GrowBlu, BlackDog hype the goodness of their lights, they would be the first to announce that they use Cree, Osram or Phillips if that's what they really used. The silence can only mean epistar. Same stuff used by the same contract houses making the same Apollo, TopLED, et. al. knockoffs.

These brands sell speculation. "You're gonna love it" is their motto. But, they're light on facts.

Sorry if I'm being un-cordial or anything. It's just that I hate to see people spend top dollar on what is basically a rebranbded Chinese import. There are brands that actually do use Cree, Osram and Phillips. Brands that even publish their spectrum/ratio. (Even brands that publish the diode part number in case you want to build your own. They compete on service, warranty, upgrades, etc. Not secret sauce.).

I learned the hard way with Lighthouse Hydro's Blackstar. That's not as hyped and over-priced as the above-mentioned brands. But, it's just a rebranded Chinese import sold for twice the money. I got 125w actual for $180. I could have spent $220 on Area-51 RW-75 and had the same results (less electricity, less heat, lifetime warranty).

My remarks about your Kind aren't meant to be critical of you. But, we do have to think about those who might be considering the same choice. I'd advise against it.

getsoutalive · Mar 4, 2015

I have a very difficult time believing that they manufacture their own diodes.

az2000 · Mar 4, 2015

getsoutalive said:
I have a very difficult time believing that they manufacture their own diodes.

I'm sure what they mean is that the contract house they work with buys epiled dies and encapsulates them in-house (perhaps to some specification from Kind, such as lens angle). There's probably a grain of truth to the claim, but left to the listener to choose what they want to hear.

HydroGrowLED engages in similar wordsmithing. Their product pages hype unspecific things about their lights. Then they have an "LED Basics" page where they go into great detail about binning, comparing Osram bins. But, nowhere do they say they use Osram. It's just a suggestion for those who want to believe they're getting the best.

mickey oneil · Mar 5, 2015

az2000 said:
I didn't see anything about being made in the US. All I saw was "in our factory" which could cover a relationship with a contract house in China.

Trust me. As much as Kind, Lush, HydrogrowLED, GrowBlu, BlackDog hype the goodness of their lights, they would be the first to announce that they use Cree, Osram or Phillips if that's what they really used. The silence can only mean epistar. Same stuff used by the same contract houses making the same Apollo, TopLED, et. al. knockoffs.

These brands sell speculation. "You're gonna love it" is their motto. But, they're light on facts.

Sorry if I'm being un-cordial or anything. It's just that I hate to see people spend top dollar on what is basically a rebranbded Chinese import. There are brands that actually do use Cree, Osram and Phillips. Brands that even publish their spectrum/ratio. (Even brands that publish the diode part number in case you want to build your own. They compete on service, warranty, upgrades, etc. Not secret sauce.).

I learned the hard way with Lighthouse Hydro's Blackstar. That's not as hyped and over-priced as the above-mentioned brands. But, it's just a rebranded Chinese import sold for twice the money. I got 125w actual for $180. I could have spent $220 on Area-51 RW-75 and had the same results (less electricity, less heat, lifetime warranty).

My remarks about your Kind aren't meant to be critical of you. But, we do have to think about those who might be considering the same choice. I'd advise against it.

Great stuff! Thanks again.

mickey oneil · Mar 5, 2015

mickey oneil said:
Great stuff! Thanks again.

One more thing AZ... I just received my L450 yesterday, but haven't opened it based on the feedback from this site. I'm really thinking about sending back and ordering the RW150 in lieu. Will the rw150 be plenty for my space (20"x36"x62")? I know it will be fine for veg, but what about flower. Obviously, I cannot fit two in that space...just looking to grow 2 plants At a time.

Or I guess I could do 2x rw-75. Would that be better? (really not looking to increase my grow footprint).

az2000 · Mar 5, 2015

mickey oneil said:
Will the rw150 be plenty for my space (20"x36"x62")? ... Or I guess I could do 2x rw-75. Would that be better?

You have 5 sq ft. With efficient LED like Area 51, you want about 30-35w/sq ft. (Shorter plants could be closer to 30, taller plants closer to 35). 150w puts you exactly at 30w/sq ft.

Yes, two RW-75s would provide better coverage, more flexible height and angling. Also, whenever the fixture fails you could limp through with one fixture (wouldn't be total darkness).

If you want to increase the w/sq ft, consider some Cree LED sidelighting from Home Depot. For example, a 9.5w (60w equiv) LED lightbulb in each corner will give you 7.6w/sq ft.

mickey oneil · Mar 5, 2015

az2000 said:
You have 5 sq ft. With efficient LED like Area 51, you want about 30-35w/sq ft. (Shorter plants could be closer to 30, taller plants closer to 35). 150w puts you exactly at 30w/sq ft.

Yes, two RW-75s would provide better coverage, more flexible height and angling. Also, whenever the fixture fails you could limp through with one fixture (wouldn't be total darkness).

If you want to increase the w/sq ft, consider some Cree LED sidelighting from Home Depot. For example, a 9.5w (60w equiv) LED lightbulb in each corner will give you 7.6w/sq ft.

Sounds good. Sorry if I'm being a pain, but you're saying you would do the 2rw75's over the l450 from KiND? Thanks for walking me through this.

nomofatum · Mar 5, 2015

mickey oneil said:
Sounds good. Sorry if I'm being a pain, but you're saying you would do the 2rw75's over the l450 from KiND? Thanks for walking me through this.

Do the math yourself.

Epistar fixture = about 105-110 lumens per watt
Cree Fixture = about 120-130 lumens per watt.

A 116w Epistar fixture will grow almost identically to a 100w Cree fixture. Don't let them overstate this to you.

150w of Crees will output the same amount of light as 175w of Epistars. 230w of Epistars will easily defeat 150w of Crees. Go with the Kind if those are your only two options.

FYI, you can build an ugly version of the Kind for less than $100.

You would be better off with a HPS + supplemental lighting however, just as or more efficient and way cheaper.

az2000 · Mar 5, 2015

mickey oneil said:
Sounds good. Sorry if I'm being a pain, but you're saying you would do the 2rw75's over the l450 from KiND? Thanks for walking me through this.

I would use A51, Rapid/Onyx, AdvancedLED before Kind because my understanding is that Kind is just a rebranded Chinese import. I think they (and Lush, GrowBlu, Blackdog, HydroGrowLED and, to some extent, LighthouseHydro) are predatory in the way they hype lights which are merely epi-whatever LEDs, play "secret spectrum," etc.

I think 2 RW-75s are preferable to 1 RW-150 because they give more flexibility and coverage. In a smaller space like yours, I'd definitely do two RW75s. In a larger 5x5 tent, it might not be worth the trouble managing all those fixtures.

PSUAGRO. · Mar 5, 2015

nomofatum said:
Do the math yourself.

Epistar fixture = about 105-110 lumens per watt
Cree Fixture = about 120-130 lumens per watt.

A 116w Epistar fixture will grow almost identically to a 100w Cree fixture. Don't let them overstate this to you.

150w of Crees will output the same amount of light as 175w of Epistars. 230w of Epistars will easily defeat 150w of Crees. Go with the Kind if those are your only two options.

FYI, you can build an ugly version of the Kind for less than $100.

You would be better off with a HPS + supplemental lighting however, just as or more efficient and way cheaper.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT "5w"/3w LEDS KIND IS USING IN THEIR FIXTURES(read again^^^^)...........don't assume epistar, which wouldn't be bad at all depending on group/bin #s. Actually their general efficiencies have gone up obviously(2015, following haitz law) , this also includes cree and other leading brands.

I'm assuming cheap generic encapsulated leds for 90% of the rebrand market, possibly "5w" multichip for higher profit margins........

nomofatum · Mar 5, 2015

PSUAGRO. said:
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT "5w"/3w LEDS KIND IS USING IN THEIR FIXTURES(read again^^^^)...........don't assume epistar, which wouldn't be bad at all depending on group/bin #s. Actually their general efficiencies have gone up obviously(2015, following haitz law) , this also includes cree and other leading brands.

I'm assuming cheap generic encapsulated leds for 90% of the rebrand market, possibly "5w" multichip for higher profit margins........

They are Epistars. I wish they would just announce it so we could end the silly pretending we don't know what's in there arguments. We could easily determine the chip source and type by a good closeup of the front and back of one chip.

3w nockoffs look like 1w epistars, almost. I haven't seen a fake that matches the 3w epistars. I have 100 of the fake ones, not using, but almost as bright by my eye. I haven't used 5w ones yet, but I'm sure I can find something that shows the difference.

Also the fake 3w ones are lighter and the weight varies more from chip to chip.

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