If the November bill gets passed, what does that mean for us growers?

Dan Kone said:

So how long should we hold out for this perfect bill? It hasn't happened in 77 years. Is it worth waiting another 77 years? Even if we do get this mythical perfect bill passed what's to stop Richard Lee from getting the state senate to impose legislation that gives him a monopoly anyways? Even in your best case scenario where for some strange reason someone decides to spend millions of dollars to get the perfect legalization bill passed, the end result will be the same. Corporations and rich people will manipulate the system to benefit themselves and cut out the little guy. Representatives from conservative districts will impose regulations on it to show off for their conservative base.

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It actually didn't even take me very long to find this: http://www.oaklandnorml.org/cms/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=488
And here is the actual text of the bill: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/sen/sb_1401-1450/sb_1449_bill_20100405_amended_sen_v98.html
This bill reduces possession charges to an infraction. No jail time, no court or court fees. A minor fine and a "don't get caught next time".

Dan Kone said:

There is no possible situation where we can have legalization without any additional rules or taxes imposed on it. That's the way our system works. If you won't support any repeal of prohibition because it has strings attached then you are for all practical purposes a supporter of prohibition.

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Sure, if all you're going to do is roll over and say "this is too hard, let's give up". You either haven't been paying attention to the last 20 years of activism and legal actions which have brought us to the very bloody day you Prop19-ers keep moaning about. And quite frankly, we already have a system that works well, employs hundreds of thousands and puts lots of money into the economy, both through taxes and cost-of-business and cost-of-living spending. If you can't imagine a way to achieve legalization without letting any Dick turn our industry into Wal-Mart or McDonalds, then you aren't trying hard enough. No matter how you slice it, Prop 19 adds more regulation, restriction and legal ambiguity.

Dan Kone said:

Anyone else find it ironic that the one thing cops and drug dealers agree on is the continuation of prohibition?

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Why is it ironic that cops or drug dealers would want a continuation of prohibition? Both parties make money off prohibition. I do find it kind of ironic that you think that mudslinging actually enhances your arguments. But I suppose you have to do what you do to cover over the fact that you are willing to sacrifice anyone else so long as you get your ounce. But, I don't mind being misjudged. 20 years of activism and fighting for our rights as a community speak for themselves. If nothing else, like some other growers, this legislation would probably present me with an opportunity to make a fair amount of profit, but it would be at the expense of years of progress towards slowly decriminalizing cannabis, at the expense of my fellow growers and breeders who've communed, collectivated, fought and come together to keep the culture alive despite billions of dollars being spent to kill it, and at the expense of not only those who still sit and waste away in federal and state facilities, but also those that will be sent to similar facilities because of what Prop 19 would bring. Unlike you, that is a price that's too high for me to pay. I'm a better person than that and will conduct myself so, as I've always done.

TokinPodPilot said:

Why is it ironic that cops or drug dealers would want a continuation of prohibition? Both parties make money off prohibition. I do find it kind of ironic that you think that mudslinging actually enhances your arguments. But I suppose you have to do what you do to cover over the fact that you are willing to sacrifice anyone else so long as you get your ounce. But, I don't mind being misjudged. 20 years of activism and fighting for our rights as a community speak for themselves. If nothing else, like some other growers, this legislation would probably present me with an opportunity to make a fair amount of profit, but it would be at the expense of years of progress towards slowly decriminalizing cannabis, at the expense of my fellow growers and breeders who've communed, collectivated, fought and come together to keep the culture alive despite billions of dollars being spent to kill it, and at the expense of not only those who still sit and waste away in federal and state facilities, but also those that will be sent to similar facilities because of what Prop 19 would bring. Unlike you, that is a price that's too high for me to pay. I'm a better person than that and will conduct myself so, as I've always done.

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Bravo! I agree, this prop is written in way that it will make money off of the masses for sure but won't help any of the people who actually need cannabis medically. This prop is not taking into consideration the patients who need their medicine, many of these people in need consume an Ounce of cannabis within the time period of a few days to 1 week...we can definitely write a better prop.

People, Don't be stupid. They are trying to divide us so they can win! We need to band together as Smokers. Tobacco, Cannabis, Medical, Recreational, Black Market, and Legal. Only then do we have the numbers in our favor!

United we stand, Divided we fall!

TokinPodPilot said:

It actually didn't even take me very long to find this: http://www.oaklandnorml.org/cms/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=488
And here is the actual text of the bill: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/sen/sb_1401-1450/sb_1449_bill_20100405_amended_sen_v98.html
This bill reduces possession charges to an infraction. No jail time, no court or court fees. A minor fine and a "don't get caught next time".

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That's excellent. I was unaware of this. Thank you for the link.

Here's the problem. You're so concerned with the wording of this legislation that you're not seeing what this bill can do for us on a national scale. If passed, it's very likely other states will follow and pass their own legalization laws. It's likely to cause a chain reaction leading to an end to prohibition on a national level.

TokinPodPilot said:

Sure, if all you're going to do is roll over and say "this is too hard, let's give up".

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Again, it's been 77 years. There is absolutely no guarantee that legislation will come along with no taxes or regulations. Even if legislation like that does come along, it is a guarantee that the state congress will impose taxes and regulations anyways giving us the same or an even worse result.

TokinPodPilot said:

And quite frankly, we already have a system that works well, employs hundreds of thousands and puts lots of money into the economy, both through taxes and cost-of-business and cost-of-living spending.

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So then you're a prohibitionist. You're entitled to your opinion I guess. But I think most people think prohibition is a bad thing.

TokinPodPilot said:

If you can't imagine a way to achieve legalization without letting any Dick turn our industry into Wal-Mart or McDonalds, then you aren't trying hard enough. No matter how you slice it, Prop 19 adds more regulation, restriction and legal ambiguity.

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Ok. Explain to me a realistic situation where legalization happens without corporations trying to make a buck off of it.

You're also ignoring the fact that this bill does infact allow citizens of California to open their own for profit cannabis businesses for the first time.

It's not a given that Californians will all of a sudden stop caring about the quality of bud they smoke and all of a sudden want to buy Richard Lee's mass produced ditch weed. There is much evidence to the contrary. Cannabis isn't like beer at all. With beer most people will drink shitty beer with a small percentage of people wanting high quality micro brews. It's quite the opposite infact. With cannabis most Californians care very much about quality and will spend a little more to get higher quality cannabis.

On a side note, people are so concerned with Richard Lee taking over the cannabis business that they aren't even noticing the people who are really going to be dominate in the Cannabis business. Harborside. Richard Lee with all his press doesn't even have the most profitable club in his own city. Harborside gets 10x more business than blue sky. They actually put out a good product. People should be more worried about them than big cannabis poster boy Richard Lee.

Dan Kone said:

That's excellent. I was unaware of this. Thank you for the link.

Here's the problem. You're so concerned with the wording of this legislation that you're not seeing what this bill can do for us on a national scale. If passed, it's very likely other states will follow and pass their own legalization laws. It's likely to cause a chain reaction leading to an end to prohibition on a national level.



Again, it's been 77 years. There is absolutely no guarantee that legislation will come along with no taxes or regulations. Even if legislation like that does come along, it is a guarantee that the state congress will impose taxes and regulations anyways giving us the same or an even worse result.



So then you're a prohibitionist. You're entitled to your opinion I guess. But I think most people think prohibition is a bad thing.



Ok. Explain to me a realistic situation where legalization happens without corporations trying to make a buck off of it.

You're also ignoring the fact that this bill does infact allow citizens of California to open their own for profit cannabis businesses for the first time.

It's not a given that Californians will all of a sudden stop caring about the quality of bud they smoke and all of a sudden want to buy Richard Lee's mass produced ditch weed. There is much evidence to the contrary. Cannabis isn't like beer at all. With beer most people will drink shitty beer with a small percentage of people wanting high quality micro brews. It's quite the opposite infact. With cannabis most Californians care very much about quality and will spend a little more to get higher quality cannabis.

On a side note, people are so concerned with Richard Lee taking over the cannabis business that they aren't even noticing the people who are really going to be dominate in the Cannabis business. Harborside. Richard Lee with all his press doesn't even have the most profitable club in his own city. Harborside gets 10x more business than blue sky. They actually put out a good product. People should be more worried about them than big cannabis poster boy Richard Lee.

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The Oakland City Council isn't waiting for November to begin jumbling the legal rules. The Council's Public Safety Committee approved licensing wholesale pot growing Tuesday, 3-to-1.

KALW News reporter Ali Winston reports from that meeting that sponsors say the main reason for the proposal isn't revenue, it's safety (as their name implies): residential electrical fires more than doubled in the city in the past three years, and officials think there's a good connection between that increase and unregulated pot "grow houses."

That said, the committee proposes that applicants pay fees of over $275,000 per operation.

Approved by the committee and full City Council, four large growers would be permitted in the first year.

One grower said he embraced regulation but argued that the plan would force medium- and small-scale cultivators to close down, move, or "go back underground into the dark ages."

The ordinance doesn't yet set a limit on the size of the large cultivators

The plan also would permit Oakland's four licensed dispensaries to sell to retailers across California.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/...entry_id=67931

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...nclick_check=1

Last month rich lee purchased a 20 acre plot to build his new growing facilities ...

Just passed baby... look out people here comes the marijane! the big 4 have just had it approved in Oak town.

What makes you think he is going to be cranking out ditchweek...LOL. If he has enough money to pull this off and fund his prop19.... don't you think he has enough money to hire the best in the biz at growing the dankest weed in the world... come on now.

If they really open up those gigantic operations I can see the DEA cracking down on them to make a point. 58 Lbs of pot a day? No way, Even at $2000/lb that's $42,340,000 per year.

Weedoozie said:

Bravo! I agree, this prop is written in way that it will make money off of the masses for sure but won't help any of the people who actually need cannabis medically. This prop is not taking into consideration the patients who need their medicine, many of these people in need consume an Ounce of cannabis within the time period of a few days to 1 week...we can definitely write a better prop.

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Where does this proposition say that it will supersede medical cannabis laws?

GanjaAL said:

What makes you think he is going to be cranking out ditchweek...LOL. If he has enough money to pull this off and fund his prop19.... don't you think he has enough money to hire the best in the biz at growing the dankest weed in the world... come on now.

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Ever been to his dispensary? They sell nothing but ditchweed. I just find a guy who doesn't know the first thing about growing and sells nothing but bammer intimidating. He has the most publicized cannabis dispensary in the world and yet 2 out of the three of his competitors in Oakland outsell him. He's not the threat everyone is making him out to be. He's all about politics, marketing, and being famous. He doesn't know shit about herb.

However harborside being allowed to do large scale grows like that is scary. They actually know their shit. Lets just hope they all get mendo mites.

Weedoozie said:

Current California MMJ laws do not prohibit smoking in public. It is not currently illegal for medical marijuana patients to smoke in public or in sight of anyone under 18 whereas under the new Prop 19, medical patients cannot by law smoke in the presence of anyone under the age of 18. Kind of ridiculous considering how many medical patients are also parents of minors.

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Very minor detail. If they didn't do that the police lobby would run commercials saying "OMFG! Richard Lee wants to give pot to your kids!". Then it would fail.

Weedoozie said:

Besides that, it's common knowledge that medical marijuana patients use considerably more than recreational users. Irv Rosenfeld, one of the few lucky MMJ patients in the US receives 11 oz per month from the federal government. Maine recently determined that it's medical marijuana patients would use 5 oz per month, on average. The high tax on medicine, besides being ethically inconsistent, falls most heavily on the sickest, who tend to be the poorest.

At $400 per oz, a MMJ patient who needs 3 oz a month will pay $138.60 tax per month in Oakland. And considering that Medical, Medicaid, and most every insurance company will not cover the cost of Cannabis, these patients pay out of pocket.

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That's a pretty solid argument actually. You've got a point there. However it's pretty safe to say that with fully legal growing we can expect a big price reduction. The markup on a cannabis is pretty insane. Most of that is an effect of the risk involved in growing/selling.

It costs under $100 dollars to produce an ounce of quality hydro. By the time it hits retail you're paying $400 dollars. That's a symptom of it being illegal. It's impossible to say how much prices will decrease and if that decrease will fully compensate for that tax, but it's fair to say that people won't be paying $138 more per ounce.

Weedoozie said:

Meanwhile, no city or county in California has reversed itself on a ban or moratorium on MMJ dispensaries since Oakland (the origin of Prop 19) passed Measure F (the first MMJ tax).
Also during all of this, several cases are working through the courts challenging medical marijuana bans, moratoriums, and regulations which are de facto bans, as discriminatory and in violation of California's MMJ laws. Passage of Prop 19 will remove any legal basis for these cases which is a step backward for the medical MMJ patient community.

Taking the "medical" out of "marijuana"

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Weedoozie said:

...

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That's all an unfounded assumption. It will not end medical marijuana in California.

Dan Kone said:

However it's pretty safe to say that with fully legal growing we can expect a big price reduction. The markup on a cannabis is pretty insane. Most of that is an effect of the risk involved in growing/selling.

It costs under $100 dollars to produce an ounce of quality hydro. By the time it hits retail you're paying $400 dollars. That's a symptom of it being illegal. It's impossible to say how much prices will decrease and if that decrease will fully compensate for that tax, but it's fair to say that people won't be paying $138 more per ounce

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Yes the markup on Cannabis is insane but I do not think that passing of Prop 19 will reduce the price significantly, if at all. I think that if Prop 19 passed, the licensed distributors who will be paying those incredible taxes to run their legal MJ business will collectively keep the prices up in order to make more money off of the whole process. However, this is only a prediction of mine based on how I see the taxes the government will impose on these industrialized cultivators effecting the market price. As I see it, the government and distributors will take advantage of the fact that most people are used to paying the high prices dispensaries like Blue Sky Cafe and dealers charge currently...anyone else see this happening?

oakland is charging $275,000 to open pot factories. the prices will NOT be going down.






The Oakland City Council isn't waiting for November to begin jumbling the legal rules. The Council's Public Safety Committee approved licensing wholesale pot growing Tuesday, 3-to-1.

KALW News reporter Ali Winston reports from that meeting that sponsors say the main reason for the proposal isn't revenue, it's safety (as their name implies): residential electrical fires more than doubled in the city in the past three years, and officials think there's a good connection between that increase and unregulated pot "grow houses."

That said, the committee proposes that applicants pay fees of over $275,000 per operation.

Approved by the committee and full City Council, four large growers would be permitted in the first year.

One grower said he embraced regulation but argued that the plan would force medium- and small-scale cultivators to close down, move, or "go back underground into the dark ages."

The ordinance doesn't yet set a limit on the size of the large cultivators

The plan also would permit Oakland's four licensed dispensaries to sell to retailers across California.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/...entry_id=67931

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...nclick_check=1

Last month rich lee purchased a 20 acre plot to build his new growing facilities ...

fdd2blk said:

oakland is charging $275,000 to open pot factories. the prices will NOT be going down.

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That's what I thought

fdd2blk said:

oakland is charging $275,000 to open pot factories. the prices will NOT be going down.

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Irrelevant. Increasing supply without increasing demand will result in lower prices.

Dan Kone said:

Irrelevant. Increasing supply without increasing demand will result in lower prices.

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cost of operation is irrelevant?

ok, you win.



if the bill passes there will be a higher demand. which will increase prices.

fdd2blk said:

cost of operation is irrelevant?

ok, you win.

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In this particular context, yes. I invested a large amount of money in my new setup at the beginning of this year. That did not mean I got to charge more for the product. It doesn't work that way.

$277k is completely insignificant when you consider the scale of these operations. They are taking about putting out 58 lbs a day. Assuming a $2500 profit per pound over them buying pounds from other sources they'll make 3x that money in a week of full scale operations.

The idea that the cost of that permit is going to actually raise the price of cannabis state wide is utterly laughable. Seriously, it's absurd.

Dan Kone said:

In this particular context, yes. I invested a large amount of money in my new setup at the beginning of this year. That did not mean I got to charge more for the product. It doesn't work that way.

$277k is completely insignificant when you consider the scale of these operations. They are taking about putting out 58 lbs a day. Assuming a $2500 profit per pound over them buying pounds from other sources they'll make 3x that money in a week of full scale operations.

The idea that the cost of that permit is going to actually raise the price of cannabis state wide is utterly laughable. Seriously, it's absurd.

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i'm more focused on you saying that prices will drop. that's the absurd part. people already pay what they pay, there is No reason to lower prices.

fdd2blk said:

i'm more focused on you saying that prices will drop. that's the absurd part. people already pay what they pay, there is No reason to lower prices.

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Exactly, we never said anything about the prices rising, both fdd2blk and I were commenting on how the price as is will probably not decrease and will rather stay around the same amount they have been.