Help? Never seen this before! Mutant or???

Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
JakStraw from Wichita said:
I don’t have EC meter but will test run off with TDS, and WTF is a ph slurry?, I use 1 gallon every time I feed and get probably a pint run off. And i have no other pics of my room except all I’ve shared here, I try to stay under radar and pics seem sketch but I did it here cuz I need the help. BTW thanks for your time
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actually any TDS or PPM - meter is also an EC-meter but simply displays the info differently, in the case of PPM there are even different conversion-factors - which is just adding to the confusion :D I use a EC-meter that shows the electrolyte concentration in microSiemens... I have a chart somewhere... btw your calcium nitrate is that prilled/small corns?

JakStraw from Wichita said:
nd WTF is a ph slurry?,
Click to expand...
like a soil probe, the cocos may have absorbed some of the nutes and is now high in salts - maybe even higher than drain.

JakStraw from Wichita said:
I’ll also add that this is 4th round on the coco and I’ve never really “cleaned/flushed“ it, nute build up in coco from not flushing?
Click to expand...
ok, stick around and we can maybe refine your methods a bit.

In a mineralic cocos grow you should always pour as much water into your pots that about 30% of it drains out - throw the drain away swiftly afterwards.
You shoudl always wash out your cocos between your grows using either rainwater (best) or purewater/RO water or soft tapwater (pH to 5.8). Like, pour 3* its volume through it. Afterwards buffer it to your target ph 5.8 best using a professional product or a mix of dolomite lime, algae chalk other stonemeals and something acidic to reduce the alkalinity of the aforementioned stonemeals (like humic acids from leornadithe). Since I'm not from the US but from the EU I use other products and others should better jump in here on the details/products...

Coco's "steals" some of the calcium so that may be the reason why some of the calciumnitrate didn't have such a high EC toll at your plants, but these things saturate ofc at some point.

What else did you mix in the cocos? like perlit?
 
J

JakStraw from Wichita

Active Member
Kassiopeija said:
actually any TDS or PPM - meter is also an EC-meter but simply displays the info differently, in the case of PPM there are even different conversion-factors - which is just adding to the confusion :D I use a EC-meter that shows the electrolyte concentration in microSiemens... I have a chart somewhere... btw your calcium nitrate is that prilled/small corns?


like a soil probe, the cocos may have absorbed some of the nutes and is now high in salts - maybe even higher than drain.


ok, stick around and we can maybe refine your methods a bit.

In a mineralic cocos grow you should always pour as much water into your pots that about 30% of it drains out - throw the drain away swiftly afterwards.
You shoudl always wash out your cocos between your grows using either rainwater (best) or purewater/RO water or soft tapwater (pH to 5.8). Like, pour 3* its volume through it. Afterwards buffer it to your target ph 5.8 best using a professional product or a mix of dolomite lime, algae chalk other stonemeals and something acidic to reduce the alkalinity of the aforementioned stonemeals (like humic acids from leornadithe). Since I'm not from the US but from the EU I use other products and others should better jump in here on the details/products...

Coco's "steals" some of the calcium so that may be the reason why some of the calciumnitrate didn't have such a high EC toll at your plants, but these things saturate ofc at some point.

What else did you mix in the cocos? like perlit?
Click to expand...
Calcium is little balls smaller then a bb, run off goes straight on the floor and flows directly to sump then pumped out of basement so no runoff remains on the floor, and one gallon every feeding seems pretty good to me it’s probably 15-20% run off. And I do 50/50 coco perlite
 
Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
JakStraw from Wichita said:
Calcium is little balls smaller then a bb,
Click to expand...
I just tried to solve mine in hot water but it doesn't solve completely but nonetheless the EC spiked high... it may be that this results in a consecutive second increase afterwards... donno... does you water also get grey/blackish from it? I've only used it for soil enrichment previously, so askign out of interest

JakStraw from Wichita said:
run off goes straight on the floor and flows directly to sump then pumped out of basement so no runoff remains on the floor, and one gallon every feeding seems pretty good to me it’s probably 15-20% run off. And I do 50/50 coco perlite
Click to expand...
sounds good, you could increase the runoff a little and make sure, it also is like this to prevent root burning, and take pH & EC measures from time to time for you personally to see where things stand.
 
J

JakStraw from Wichita

Active Member
Kassiopeija said:
I just tried to solve mine in hot water but it doesn't solve completely but nonetheless the EC spiked high... it may be that this results in a consecutive second increase afterwards... donno... does you water also get grey/blackish from it? I've only used it for soil enrichment previously, so askign out of interest


sounds good, you could increase the runoff a little and make sure, it also is like this to prevent root burning, and take pH & EC measures from time to time for you personally to see where things stand.
Click to expand...
use a 32 fl oz measuring cup and fill it with dry pellets of calcium nitrate and add that to a one gallon jug with hot water, so there isn’t a gallon of water in this container since the pellets you put in first take up space, shake vigorously until no more pellets, solution is a milky white color but all calcium is dissolved. That one gallon container of cal solution then is measured out to 32 fl oz of liquid and added to 55 gals of tap water, after lowering ph to 6ish the thd is around the 720-740 range, with the Peters I add an entire bag and 1lb of Epson salt into a 15 gallon drum and dissolve completely, once peters is dissolved that is measured out to 32 fl oz of solution and also added to 55 gals of water, after ph correction it’s around the 630-670 ppm that’s with two separate 55 gal barrels, if ya add both cal and peters to one 55 gal drum the ppm is 1200+ and calcifies this is why recently I switched to 2 separate barrels... does this make sense?
 

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cobshopgrow

cobshopgrow

Well-Known Member
interesting, never heard or saw one giving the salts alternating.

never had any precipitation using salts also, not a single bit. (basesalt+ calcium nitrate), i mix then well diluted allready, first base, then calcinit, simply in cold RO water.
could it be calcium sulfate whats on the bottom of the barrel after the calcium reacted with the sulfur in your basesalt (mgso4 prob.)?
"As a matter of fact the formation of calcium sulfate is one of the main reasons why concentrated nutrient solutions usually come in two or more parts, to keep calcium and sulfate ions apart while they are in concentrated form. "

not refering to clacium nitrate directly, but a good read.

Using calcium sulfate in hydroponics – Science in Hydroponics

scienceinhydroponics.com scienceinhydroponics.com

"
Kassiopeija said:
I just tried to solve mine in hot water but it doesn't solve completely but nonetheless the EC spiked high... it may be that this results in a consecutive second increase afterwards... donno... does you water also get grey/blackish from it? I've only used it for soil enrichment previously, so askign out of interest
Click to expand...
youre sure it was calcium nitrate you tried?
ive never sawn calcium nitrate not dissolve within a few minutes and steering the mix, even in cold water.
it dissolve very quick and well.
no coloration also.
maybe you tried calcium sulfate or else.

EC is electrical conductivity = siemens, not electrolyte concentration btw.
 
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J

JakStraw from Wichita

Active Member
cobshopgrow said:
interesting, never heard or saw one giving the salts alternating.

never had any precipitation using salts also, not a single bit. (basesalt+ calcium nitrate), i mix then well diluted allready, first base, then calcinit, simply in cold RO water.
could it be calcium sulfate whats on the bottom of the barrel after the calcium reacted with the sulfur in your basesalt (mgso4 prob.)?
"As a matter of fact the formation of calcium sulfate is one of the main reasons why concentrated nutrient solutions usually come in two or more parts, to keep calcium and sulfate ions apart while they are in concentrated form. "

not refering to clacium nitrate directly, but a good read.

Using calcium sulfate in hydroponics – Science in Hydroponics

scienceinhydroponics.com scienceinhydroponics.com
"

youre sure it was calcium nitrate you tried?
ive never sawn calcium nitrate not dissolve within a few minutes and steering the mix, even in cold water.
it dissolve very quick and well.
no coloration also.
maybe you tried calcium sulfate or else.

EC is electrical conductivity = siemens, not electrolyte concentration btw.
Click to expand...
So do ya think I’ve been mixing the two concentrates not diluted enough? And do ya think the two barrel idea is stupid or keep trying it?
 
cobshopgrow

cobshopgrow

Well-Known Member
not diluted enough could really be, at least youre on the safe side if you dilute them more before mixing.
i mean its worth a try, you prob. simply can test it in a bucket.

never heard of the 2 barrel, feed alternating idea, not knowledged enough to say if its good or bad,
your buds look good, exept the strange one maybe youre after.

curious what cause this fallout as i never could reproduce it, while i never forced it!
my basesalt warns to never mix with a calcium fertilizer at the same time, at once, thats all.
even after days there isnt a single bit of residue.
just can share my observations.

am sure you have read this in the last 20y (not sarcastic, just scratching my head).

"After the Hydroponic Special and any Epsom Salts needed have been dissolved in the tank, proceed as follows to supplement your crop with required concentrations of N & Ca. "

i mean its not that they didnt planed you use the fertilizer with calcium nitrate. so big ??
 
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J

JakStraw from Wichita

Active Member
cobshopgrow said:
not diluted enough could really be, at least youre on the safe side if you dilute them more before mixing.
i mean its worth a try, you prob. simply can test it in a bucket.

never heard of the 2 barrel, feed alternating idea, not knowledged enough to say if its good or bad,
your buds look good, exept the strange one maybe youre after.

curious what cause this fallout as i never could reproduce it, while i never forced it!
my basesalt warns to never mix with a calcium fertilizer at the same time, at once, thats all.
even after days there isnt a single bit of residue.
just can share my observations.

am sure you have read this in the last 20y (not sarcastic, just scratching my head).

"After the Hydroponic Special and any Epsom Salts needed have been dissolved in the tank, proceed as follows to supplement your crop with required concentrations of N & Ca. "

i mean its not that they didnt planed you use the fertilizer with calcium nitrate. so big ??
Click to expand...
Hmmmmmm.... just read that link ya sent me, it says maximum solubility is 3 lbs per gallon, I’m putting 25 lbs in 15 gals, have I been fucking up this whole time? I hope when I post this people don’t dismiss me as a total joke but in the early 80’s my dad traded Ed Rosenthal a cutting of original skunk #1 and in return Ed gave him this receipt. I have hella pix of my mom dad and I kicking it with him and going to cannabis cup in 94-95 and winning with the skunk#1 using Ed’s nute receipt. This is what I’ve used my whole life passed down from Ed to my father and grandparents who were also involved. May sound like a BS story but it’s true and this is where I’ve accumulated all my knowledge. As time goes on a ppl keep crossing shit and technology changes I prolly need to change my ways also.
 
cobshopgrow

cobshopgrow

Well-Known Member
am sure youre no joke... with that background, thats a cool story!
what i got wrong ?, 15 gallon by 3, is 45lbs, youre at 25lbs, fine or?
Ed should know his stuff.
what ratios of basesalt to calcinit he recommended?
would love to know :D

Also not sure if its that oldschool what youre doing and got recommended in the 80s.
thats the just released megacrop 2 part, which is almost the same to what you use.
to me these values below looking good, they re maybe a bit lower then yours (?).


also cool is their calculator, think you can use it too.

Mega Crop 2-Part Single Tank Use Calculator – Greenleaf Nutrients

greenleafnutrients.com greenleafnutrients.com

dont really see a failure from your side.
what wont cost anything would be to test if you dilute each component in a few gallons before give it in the main tank, Ed shouldnt have a problem with this aproach.
not sure if thats the big step either.
 
J

JakStraw from Wichita

Active Member
Kassiopeija said:
Can you post pics of the runs before you encountered this erratic growth (but used the same feeding schedule).

Heavy N overfeed would actually create darkgreen clawing leaves - but, it appears, that the darker leaves (at the top of each cola) don't claw but look healthy, whereas the brighter ones look erratic. I do not see any clawing at all - they are just weak.

It could be that you got such a tremendous salt builtup in your pot that the plant lost parts of its ability to draw nutritients from the soil - in this case it may only "drink" and take the nutes from its leaves instead ("auto-cannibalism") which always starts at the bottom of the fanleaves, and slowly works upwards.

If your plant would be in a true physiological state of N-tox abundancy then your buds wouldn't have swollen at all, because such a state is heavily stunting a plant, also resulting sometimes in a full yellow newgrowth of shoots.

Could you also take some measurements like
- drain EC & pH
- slurry pH & EC test (proper slurry EC is difficult to do correctly - you know the standardized "1:5 method" that many soil manufacturers use?)

Huow much do you drain with each consecutive watering? (I agree you could always water with the same, although even soilless buffers quite something, so that shouldn't be the culprit)

Heavy overfeeding wouldn't complain why e.g. the phyllotaxis is out of whack, esp. not on clones that, most likely, aren't fed at all... :peace:
[/QUOTE
Just checked runoff is 1060 TDS and ph is 6.7 !!!!
Click to expand...
 
J

JakStraw from Wichita

Active Member
cobshopgrow said:
am sure youre no joke... with that background, thats a cool story!
what i got wrong ?, 15 gallon by 3, is 45lbs, youre at 25lbs, fine or?
Ed should know his stuff.
what ratios of basesalt to calcinit he recommended?
would love to know :D

Also not sure if its that oldschool what youre doing and got recommended in the 80s.
thats the just released megacrop 2 part, which is almost the same to what you use.
to me these values below looking good, they re maybe a bit lower then yours (?).


also cool is their calculator, think you can use it too.

Mega Crop 2-Part Single Tank Use Calculator – Greenleaf Nutrients

greenleafnutrients.com greenleafnutrients.com

dont really see a failure from your side.
what wont cost anything would be to test if you dilute each component in a few gallons before give it in the main tank, Ed shouldnt have a problem with this aproach.
not sure if thats the big step either.
Click to expand...
Kinda fuct up last repost but my runoff is 1060 ppm and ph is 6.7
 
cobshopgrow

cobshopgrow

Well-Known Member
haha, no problem.
have to say one can guess it with the values you posted, just say.
its funny to know which fertilizer that guy used.
you prob need to tell us which ppm scale you use to know the EC anyway.
EC 1.5 is allready quite powerfull with these salts i say, even 1.3 could give a quite complete mix.
if its 0.5 scale its quite high would say, but there are other experts, i hope you find the culprit.
Am curious what cause this fallout.
 
J

JakStraw from Wichita

Active Member
My dads ol buddy knows the EC, that’s all they swore by back in those days, and another little secret they used nitric acid to drop PH and boost N levels a lil, back then they were able to get the acid in 5 gal glass jars lol, different subject... I said before my run off from BD was 1060ppm and 6.7 ph, the run off on my grand daddy perp is 640ppm and 6.2ph, so gotta be somthing weird with that BD since all is same soil and same nutes same room ect ect
 
Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
cobshopgrow said:
youre sure it was calcium nitrate you tried?
Click to expand...
not so sure now, I have two substances here:
IMG_20200622_101134~2.jpg IMG_20200622_101225~2.jpg
the first Calcinit behaves like you describe, although it's seems not 100% the exact same like the OP uses...
the second isn't 100% watersoluble, although it'll greatly increase the EC. the water first is greyish but after some time, returns to be clear but then some fallout remains at the bottom of the cup. I wonder what the main N source is, as it seems to contain only a small fraction of nitrate... perhaps ammonium?

BTW thanks for the link, that was a good read, but also raised a question:
"Calcium sulfate has a great advantage over other ways to supplement calcium in that the anion in the salt – sulfate – does not contribute as significantly to plant nutrition "
Is this true? I thought one of the reasons of why to use cal sul towards mid flower is actually to feed sul to a plant... plus the anion is actually alot worth as it may counter the kations prevalent in many stonemeals.
 
cobshopgrow

cobshopgrow

Well-Known Member
i see, the first picture you posted is calcium nitrate, like OP uses (me also).
whats confusing is his bag shows CAO yours CA.
its due do different conventions in each countries.
www.yara.co.uk

Conversion calculator | Yara UK

A useful calculator to convert between various different units, particularly relevant for fertiliser and crop nutrition such as converting concentration...
www.yara.co.uk www.yara.co.uk
you can convert CAO to CA back n forth, then you will have about the same.
its dam confusing... european ferts show often oxides.

second you show is lime nitrogen, kalkstickstoff.
its mostly ammonia, slow release, for soil, acres, pretty much made to not dissolve directly.
www.mein-schoener-garten.de

Kalkstickstoff richtig anwenden

Kalkstickstoff ist ein mineralischer Dünger mit Langzeitwirkung. Die Anwendung im Garten ist allerdings nicht ohne Risiken.
www.mein-schoener-garten.de
never used it myself, as its not a good choice for hydro, it can cause yield loss, in soil its a dif. story.

i think for the calcium sulfate they ment sulfate is a sec. nutrient and therefore can cause less havoc then nitrogen f.e.maybe.
i think sulfur isnt good in causing lockouts too as good as other elements.
No 2 arrow point each other like mg and ca f.e.

i know also for myself that plants can take quite some sulfur as i have 0.3EC pure sulfur in my tap.
one reason i take RO, but even seedlings dont die from this amount and every house n garden plant take it like a champ.
normally they give reliable science based infos there.
Dont think it makes your info to supplement in flower with sulfur less true.
Didnt they wrote somewhere its PH neutral more or less?
Similar to magnesium sulfate, which dont cause PH havoc to my knowledge.
They probably dont take stonemeals in to account as its not used in liquid hydro feeds and neutral to no media.
 
cobshopgrow

cobshopgrow

Well-Known Member
JakStraw from Wichita said:
EC is 1.7 with this mix... I’ll tell ya what brand of TDS meter I have so we know how to convert it
Click to expand...
sounds reasonable, to me.
not low, but not crazy high.

a gardener running a green house for a variety of plants told me once.
EC 1.2 is a lot using RO water and pro fertilizer salts, he is happy with it.
while he wasnt growing same as you do.
 
J

JakStraw from Wichita

Active Member
cobshopgrow said:
i see, the first picture you posted is calcium nitrate, like OP uses (me also).
whats confusing is his bag shows CAO yours CA.
its due do different conventions in each countries.
www.yara.co.uk

Conversion calculator | Yara UK

A useful calculator to convert between various different units, particularly relevant for fertiliser and crop nutrition such as converting concentration...
www.yara.co.uk www.yara.co.uk
you can convert CAO to CA back n forth, then you will have about the same.
its dam confusing... european ferts show often oxides.

second you show is lime nitrogen, kalkstickstoff.
its mostly ammonia, slow release, for soil, acres, pretty much made to not dissolve directly.
www.mein-schoener-garten.de

Kalkstickstoff richtig anwenden

Kalkstickstoff ist ein mineralischer Dünger mit Langzeitwirkung. Die Anwendung im Garten ist allerdings nicht ohne Risiken.
www.mein-schoener-garten.de
never used it myself, as its not a good choice for hydro, it can cause yield loss, in soil its a dif. story.

i think for the calcium sulfate they ment sulfate is a sec. nutrient and therefore can cause less havoc then nitrogen f.e.maybe.
i think sulfur isnt good in causing lockouts too as good as other elements.
No 2 arrow point each other like mg and ca f.e.

i know also for myself that plants can take quite some sulfur as i have 0.3EC pure sulfur in my tap.
one reason i take RO, but even seedlings dont die from this amount and every house n garden plant take it like a champ.
normally they give reliable science based infos there.
Dont think it makes your info to supplement in flower with sulfur less true.
Didnt they wrote somewhere its PH neutral more or less?
Similar to magnesium sulfate, which dont cause PH havoc to my knowledge.
They probably dont take stonemeals in to account as its not used in liquid hydro feeds and neutral to no media.
Click to expand...
So should I switch to a different brand of calcium nitrate with no ammonia? And if so what’s best for hydro? That wheel you posted is crazy btw, already learned a lot from y’all and appreciate it. Always been old school and done it this way since I was taught at a young age and never really changed much, but in the 80 and 90 it wasn’t researched as much and was always hush hush
 
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