For The "Liberals" In The Forum ...

[NoDrama]

You might get a ticket for not wearing your seat belt, but it is not government that makes you wear them, it is you and your voluntary actions to decide to wear it. Most government and most laws are not necessary with a responsible citizenry.

If I run a red light at 2 am and there isn't a soul for 10 miles around have I acted illegally or Have I acted unlawfully? There is a difference.

 

[Himself]

Wow, Ironhead you want to aim that rant at someone specific? Pretty sure it's not intended for moi.

And texas pete? The world is rarely black and white. Neither of with are evil generally speaking. Affirmative action is meant to right a wrong. Racism is something entirely different. Equating the two doesn't make sense. Calling medicare and social security ponzi schemes is rather hyperbolic. They are not ponzi schemes. They are a mere wisp of a social safety net. And they are still the third rail of politics as the special election in upstate New York clearly demonstrates.

Gov't can be good or bad. It is necessary. When you put people in charge of gov't who think that gov't casn'ty do anything right guess what? You get gov't that can't do anything right.

By the way, the most pressing problem we face as a nation is unemployment, not the deficit or our debt.

 

[Himself]

You might get a ticket for not wearing your seat belt, but it is not government that makes you wear them, it is you and your voluntary actions to decide to wear it. Most government and most laws are not necessary with a responsible citizenry.

If I run a red light at 2 am and there isn't a soul for 10 miles around have I acted illegally or Have I acted unlawfully? There is a difference.

Now you are just being silly. A red light is a red light. And it is the gov't giving you the tix for not wearing your searbelt and you are just being obtuse with that nit picking argument.

5 o'clock and time to go tend the garden. Cheers. Himself.

 

[undertheice]

I also believe you can judge a people by the way they treat the least fortunate amongst them. And we are behind the curve in that department.

so you feel the need to judge a people, but merely to credit their government? it was the desire of the people for clean water that urged its suppliers to "clean up their act", all that government could do was use its force to penalize those who lagged behind. our cars do not erupt in flames because people really don't want to buy fiery death-traps. all government could do was stand by and help to penalize those who had erred. the paving of our roads, though spurred on by federal mandate, are kept in their present state of disrepair by far more local efforts. who is to say what a more efficient and better kept system we might have today if that effort were to be privatized. government's duty is the protection of the citizenry and the management of their communal affairs. it creates nothing and usually manages things poorly.

as for our least fortunate, this is another of those inanities so often spouted from the left. this is a nation of people that willingly contribute more of their wealth to various charitable causes than any other on earth. our closest competitor gives less than half of what americans do, so i think you owe the people of this country an apology. being poor here has an entirely different meaning than it does in many other places on earth. though fully half of our population contributes little or nothing to the upkeep of our society, there is no massive starvation and homelessness is surprisingly uncommon, even in the worst of times. perhaps we could have eradicated poverty completely, but that government you're so fond of crediting with our successes has made it a point to act as policeman to the world, squandering our resources at every turn. instead of investing our wealth within our own borders or, better yet, allowing our people to invest their wealth as they see fit, that fortune has been wasted on foreign entanglements and government's one true creation, a nightmarish and nearly impenetrable bureaucracy.

 

[NoDrama]

Now you are just being silly. A red light is a red light. And it is the gov't giving you the tix for not wearing your searbelt and you are just being obtuse with that nit picking argument.

5 o'clock and time to go tend the garden. Cheers. Himself.

Im not silly at all. If you run a red light and no one but you is around, have you done something illegal? Or Unlawful? You might want to look up the difference because it may open your eyes to the world in which you live. Many things are not what they seem.

 

[NevaSmokedOut]

well if captain planet taught me anything if nothing at all no matter which party you choose or bad you fuck up "THE POWER IS YOURS!"

 

[Charlie Ventura]

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
- C.S. Lewis

Man, that is the most accurate description of the "end game" that progressives have no idea that they're shooting for that I've ever seen. Either that, or they haven't the guts to call what they espouse by its proper name: slavery.

Kind of reminds me of my last IRS tax audit.

 

[Himself]

Im not silly at all. If you run a red light and no one but you is around, have you done something illegal? Or Unlawful? You might want to look up the difference because it may open your eyes to the world in which you live. Many things are not what they seem.

OK Drama, You win. Game over. I surrender.

 

[Himself]

so you feel the need to judge a people, but merely to credit their government? it was the desire of the people for clean water that urged its suppliers to "clean up their act", all that government could do was use its force to penalize those who lagged behind. our cars do not erupt in flames because people really don't want to buy fiery death-traps. all government could do was stand by and help to penalize those who had erred. the paving of our roads, though spurred on by federal mandate, are kept in their present state of disrepair by far more local efforts. who is to say what a more efficient and better kept system we might have today if that effort were to be privatized. government's duty is the protection of the citizenry and the management of their communal affairs. it creates nothing and usually manages things poorly.

as for our least fortunate, this is another of those inanities so often spouted from the left. this is a nation of people that willingly contribute more of their wealth to various charitable causes than any other on earth. our closest competitor gives less than half of what americans do, so i think you owe the people of this country an apology. being poor here has an entirely different meaning than it does in many other places on earth. though fully half of our population contributes little or nothing to the upkeep of our society, there is no massive starvation and homelessness is surprisingly uncommon, even in the worst of times. perhaps we could have eradicated poverty completely, but that government you're so fond of crediting with our successes has made it a point to act as policeman to the world, squandering our resources at every turn. instead of investing our wealth within our own borders or, better yet, allowing our people to invest their wealth as they see fit, that fortune has been wasted on foreign entanglements and government's one true creation, a nightmarish and nearly impenetrable bureaucracy.

I think that is from a holy book of sorts. Anyways I was including our entire nation in that. Not just the gov't. As far as us contributing to charities? I say great but the size of charities take and disbursements are just a drop in the bucket of what we currently contribute to the unemployed, disabled, working poor etc. GHW Bush's 1000 points of light is a blip of help. I say we are not doing enough. And doing the right thing would pull us out of this recession.

I also think our foriegn policy is wrongheaded on just about every front. My point is, we have a gov't. We will always have a gov't, grover norquist's bathtub or not. So we have a gov't. I think we all can agree on that fact, right?

I JUST WANT TO MAKE OUR GOV'T MORE RESPONSIVE TO US LIL FOLK, NIXON'S SILENT MAJORITY, THE SHRINKING MIDDLE CLASS. YOU AND ME. And I work towards that goal.

 

[txpete77]

And texas pete? The world is rarely black and white. Neither of with are evil generally speaking.

The world is nothing but black and white when it comes to principles. All you have to do is boil down the concepts to the underlying principles to discover if it is good or bad. Theft is theft, regardless if performed by a thug on the street corner or by an IRS agent wearing a suit in a high rise office building.

Affirmative action is meant to right a wrong. Racism is something entirely different. Equating the two doesn't make sense.

Here is an example of exactly the black and white I was talking about:
The principle behind AA is to choose one individual over another based on that person's race. How is that not racist? Are you saying race based discrimination, when sanctioned by our government, or under the premise of good intentions is good?

Calling medicare and social security ponzi schemes is rather hyperbolic. They are not ponzi schemes. They are a mere wisp of a social safety net. And they are still the third rail of politics as the special election in upstate New York clearly demonstrates.

A Ponzi scheme is a investment plan that pays the initial investors from the monies paid by subsequent investors. If we stop taking FICA from employees and employers, will the SSA be able to pay returns to those currently collecting SS? I think you'll find your answer there.
Medicare I'll have to concede to you on this, as it is actually a compulsory insurance plan that has been mismanaged to the point that it runs similar to a Ponzi scheme.

Gov't can be good or bad. It is necessary. When you put people in charge of gov't who think that gov't casn'ty do anything right guess what? You get gov't that can't do anything right.

No, you get a government that will return to its necessary functions.
When you put people in charge of government who think government can do no wrong? They try to grow it outside of its constitutional limits, and will fight like hell to ever let it shrink. This applies to both the liberal and conservative politicians

By the way, the most pressing problem we face as a nation is unemployment, not the deficit or our debt.

I actually agree with that, but those problems are related to a certain extent. If we keep piling on the debt as we have been, unemployment will become much worse and take far more time to recover.

 

[Himself]

A Ponzi scheme is fraud-not an investement.

Medicare is NOT mismanaged. How did you get to that conclusion? Do you have any experience with medicare?

 

[Himself]

Do you have insurance? Have you been to the doctor in the last year?

 

[Coals]

Lets compare two countries that are right beside each other.

Canada has been a primarily Liberal nation. In Canada Liberals are considered to be center, maybe a little left of center. A happy medium if you will. Cons are right and NDP are left.
The country has stayed primarily center over its history with a few exceptions here and there. Gays in the millitary passed in the early 90's and there was no fan fare. Canada has had socialized medicine for 40 or so years. A medical system that is not perfect, however one that not a single citizen would give up, ever ever.
Canada has a robust social safety net compared to the US.

Today the Canadian dollar is worth more than the greenback, the un-employment rate hovers around 7%, there was no significant housing crash, not a single Canadian firm required a bailout (only American ones operating in Canada), the tightly regulated banking system is rated #1 in the world resulting in enormous foreign investment, crime is at a 30 year low, Canadas middle class has flatlined (not died).

Compare this to America. America has been on a right wing binge over that same time perioed. Nixon, Reagan, Bush Jr and Sr. America saw unprecedented growth and welath building during many of those reigns. Especially the 8 or so years leading up to 2008. Except the average American saw none of those gains. All those gains were made by the richest 1%.
Of all those attributes I listed for Canada, contrast them with America and you get a very different outcome. The US dollar has fallen from its throne, Un-employment is near 10%, the housing market saw a huge crash and is still falling in many parts of the country, many firms required bailouts, tha banking system is truly the wild west resulting in foreign investment running for its life, crime is high?The middle class in America is gone.

Many of the problems seen in America are seen in Canada as well. They just seem to have been minimized by a slightly different attitude. Its not about left vs right. every nation needs some Conservative values, some Liberal values, some hardcore left and hardcore right values.
Its about your moral and ethical drive. Do you beleive that everyone who is willing to work a job everyday, contribute to society positivley, pay taxes and pay it forward deserves to make a liveable wage? Do you beleive they deserve a liveable pension as a reward for their 30 or 40 years of service to the nation? Do you belive they deserve healthcare as a reward for their service? Do you beleive a healthy, happy person capable of working and paying taxes is a good thing?

Canada is vastly ahead because of its social safety net, universal healthcare, and tight banking regulations. All of those values assure that people are helped up off their feet and returned to the workforce where they can contribute through taxes. This makes people happy, productive and foreigners wanting to move to and invest in Canada. Its no Utopia, and currently is under attack by a radical right wing Conservative government. But its where it is today because of its mix of center, left and right values.

In a few months Canada will return to the dark ages....temporarily. America and Canada will do a complete bout face on drug policy. Americas poverty is forcing the country to look at the drug war in a different way. Does it make sense to spend billions of dollars locking up otherwise law abiding, tax paying, non-violent criminals for extended periods of time for victimless crimes and do it en masse? MJ is being decriminalized and accepted as medicine all over the country. Contrast that to Canada and its very different. Canadas government has some money and is Conservative. SO that means the same thing it meant for America. Increased spending on defence and the drug war. Soon all across Canada anyone found with 5 plants or more will go directly to prison and never stand infront of a judge, there they will serve a mandatory amount of time measured in years. To accomodate all this the Conservative government has asked Corrections Corporation of America to build new spermax prisons and make a bid for their operation. The medical MJ program is being dissolved and many of the new MJ laws specifically target medical users. This has ofcourse all happened in America and contributed to its poverty. But that seems to be a common Conservative value. One of the many Conservative values I fucking hate.

ANywho I have to go to work now. I was wanting to go on about why certain items always seem to come up in the Conservative agenda (abortion, homosexuality, drug policy, science, religion etc fucking etc) that drive me away from conservatism. On paper i hold many conservative values, but in my opinion, in practice conservatism has been leveraged as a purely evil agenda to impose insane values through policy. I also wanted to touch base on the hypocrisy of trying to run a GROWTH based economy, based on spending, conservativley. Maybe some other time.

 

[undertheice]

As far as us contributing to charities? I say great but the size of charities take and disbursements are just a drop in the bucket of what we currently contribute to the unemployed, disabled, working poor etc.

I JUST WANT TO MAKE OUR GOV'T MORE RESPONSIVE TO US LIL FOLK

it is the charity of the people themselves, what they willingly give of themselves, that is the ultimate measure of a nation. what its government does with the funds wrung from the people is a sorry way to judge the ethos of any society. you say we have not done enough, but there will never be enough. never in the history of mankind has there been such a vast assemblage of people more devoted to spreading peace and prosperity, but it will never be enough for some. each instance of avarice will be magnified to encompass our entire nation, each demonstration of hostility will be seen as representative of our entire nation's creed and each bit of charity and kindness will be forgotten. this is the way of the world. this is the universal nature of man's greed and his jealousy, that those with less will always blame those with more. should we bend over backward to see to it that everyone is gainfully employed or should we demand that each man take on that responsibility for himself? should we demand that the disabled be catered to or should we give them a bit of help and then allow them to make their own way? should we pay the janitor and the burger flipper $50 an hour with guaranteed raises and a pension plan or should we pay a man for what his labors are really worth and demand that he enhance his own value to our enterprise before we will pay him more?

the natural state of mankind is poverty. all wealth is the creation of those who have excelled in some way and too many of us continually overestimate our own worth, demanding too large a chunk of that created wealth for too little effort. our government cannot make that effort for us. its response to the people, the powerful and the "lil folk" alike, should always be that it is there only to protect them as they make their own way in this world.

 

[sync0s]

Lets compare two countries that are right beside each other.

Canada has been a primarily Liberal nation. In Canada Liberals are considered to be center, maybe a little left of center. A happy medium if you will. Cons are right and NDP are left.
The country has stayed primarily center over its history with a few exceptions here and there. Gays in the millitary passed in the early 90's and there was no fan fare. Canada has had socialized medicine for 40 or so years. A medical system that is not perfect, however one that not a single citizen would give up, ever ever.
Canada has a robust social safety net compared to the US.

Today the Canadian dollar is worth more than the greenback, the un-employment rate hovers around 7%, there was no significant housing crash, not a single Canadian firm required a bailout (only American ones operating in Canada), the tightly regulated banking system is rated #1 in the world resulting in enormous foreign investment, crime is at a 30 year low, Canadas middle class has flatlined (not died).

Compare this to America. America has been on a right wing binge over that same time perioed. Nixon, Reagan, Bush Jr and Sr. America saw unprecedented growth and welath building during many of those reigns. Especially the 8 or so years leading up to 2008. Except the average American saw none of those gains. All those gains were made by the richest 1%.
Of all those attributes I listed for Canada, contrast them with America and you get a very different outcome. The US dollar has fallen from its throne, Un-employment is near 10%, the housing market saw a huge crash and is still falling in many parts of the country, many firms required bailouts, tha banking system is truly the wild west resulting in foreign investment running for its life, crime is high?The middle class in America is gone.

Many of the problems seen in America are seen in Canada as well. They just seem to have been minimized by a slightly different attitude. Its not about left vs right. every nation needs some Conservative values, some Liberal values, some hardcore left and hardcore right values.
Its about your moral and ethical drive. Do you beleive that everyone who is willing to work a job everyday, contribute to society positivley, pay taxes and pay it forward deserves to make a liveable wage? Do you beleive they deserve a liveable pension as a reward for their 30 or 40 years of service to the nation? Do you belive they deserve healthcare as a reward for their service? Do you beleive a healthy, happy person capable of working and paying taxes is a good thing?

Canada is vastly ahead because of its social safety net, universal healthcare, and tight banking regulations. All of those values assure that people are helped up off their feet and returned to the workforce where they can contribute through taxes. This makes people happy, productive and foreigners wanting to move to and invest in Canada. Its no Utopia, and currently is under attack by a radical right wing Conservative government. But its where it is today because of its mix of center, left and right values.

In a few months Canada will return to the dark ages....temporarily. America and Canada will do a complete bout face on drug policy. Americas poverty is forcing the country to look at the drug war in a different way. Does it make sense to spend billions of dollars locking up otherwise law abiding, tax paying, non-violent criminals for extended periods of time for victimless crimes and do it en masse? MJ is being decriminalized and accepted as medicine all over the country. Contrast that to Canada and its very different. Canadas government has some money and is Conservative. SO that means the same thing it meant for America. Increased spending on defence and the drug war. Soon all across Canada anyone found with 5 plants or more will go directly to prison and never stand infront of a judge, there they will serve a mandatory amount of time measured in years. To accomodate all this the Conservative government has asked Corrections Corporation of America to build new spermax prisons and make a bid for their operation. The medical MJ program is being dissolved and many of the new MJ laws specifically target medical users. This has ofcourse all happened in America and contributed to its poverty. But that seems to be a common Conservative value. One of the many Conservative values I fucking hate.

ANywho I have to go to work now. I was wanting to go on about why certain items always seem to come up in the Conservative agenda (abortion, homosexuality, drug policy, science, religion etc fucking etc) that drive me away from conservatism. On paper i hold many conservative values, but in my opinion, in practice conservatism has been leveraged as a purely evil agenda to impose insane values through policy. I also wanted to touch base on the hypocrisy of trying to run a GROWTH based economy, based on spending, conservativley. Maybe some other time.

I'll use a canadian's response:

Answer : Only one problem here:
The Death of Common Sense

An Obituary printed in the London Times

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:

- Knowing when to come in out of the rain;
- Why the early bird gets the worm;
- Life isn't always fair;
- and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).

His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens
suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children.

It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.

Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by his wife, Discretion, by his daughter, Responsibility, and by his son, Reason.

He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers;

I Know My Rights
I Want It Now
Someone Else Is To Blame
I'm A Victim

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing.

You're just another self righteous Canadian, who is too dumb to realize that your nations GDP is 1/14th of America's with 1/10th of the population. I hate listening to Canadians talk about how great they are. We all know (as well as them) that they're full of shit in their world of entitlements.

(I know some of the things mentioned happened in America)

Being that there the two have opposing means of coming up with their unemployment numbers, here is a canadian chart of unemployment vs american using the same means of calculating unemployment:

 

[Coals]

LOL, I never said Canada was great. Did you even read my entire post? There is a lot of down in it on Canada. I am ashamed of my country, the middle class has been stomped on. Corporatization has taken over the country and the government has been fully infiltratated by the lobby industry just like the US. YOu can not argue with our economic situation compared to Americas though. Look at what has happened to the rest of the world since Americas crash in 2008. Greece, Spain, Ireland etc etc. MAny countries including America still have not recovered in any way whatsoever, REGARDLESS OF THEIR SIZE. CAnada hasnt had to recover from anything.

The poverty in America is striking. I live 4 minutes from the border and regularly travel to Washington. The change over the last 5 years is odvious. The poverty is everywhere, and thats just looking out my car window. HOuses boarded up, homeless everywhere, derelict cars. property and empty buildings. Odviously these things are everywhere but the increase in Washington state over the last few years has been incredible.

BTW your chart only goes up to 2006, that was 5 years ago and a lot has changed since then.

 

[deprave]

Ok Enough about the liberal dream, lets talk about the dream of the democrats, to scam the living shit out of everyone and give it to wallstreet and big corporations thats their gd goal, the people are being conned. The Democrats are Con Artist.

 

[DelSlow]

Ok, so liberals suck, conservatives suck, then who doesn't suck?

I mean, if everyone is wrong, then who is right?

 

[deprave]

The people are right, they are real and tangible, they are answer, the human spirit, and It is there with liberty movement, Ron Paul is the candidate of the liberty movement for president so that is a great step in the right direction..we need to move away from centrist authoritarianism and give a shove back toward the people, the politicians have grown further and further away. The liberty movement has been growing for 30 years and has been overdue for about 80. Ron Paul was one of the founders of this movement and he has been right all these years about so many things and he has always held to his beliefs of liberty. This is what we need to restore america, Im not just making this shit up dude trust me ron paul is the Representative of what the people need at this point in history, check out my blog freedomftw.net and click ron paul for vids.

 

[deprave]

Coals I really enjoyed your post it is a good perspective. Your right there is really more than 2 parts of the political spectrum, for federal right now it only has one part really, centrist, on the local levels conservative are doing some damage while the federal left are scamming us for wallstreet money.