flushing during flower?

Gquebed

Gquebed

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
If it's not needed, "not hurting" sounds like an assumption. Measuring runoff ppm would indicate whether it's needed, if it's not needed, "why do it?" :)
).
Click to expand...
How so?

Do you feed every single time you water?

I don't.

In veg I, w-f-w
In bloom I, w-f-f-w.

Strain dependant of course.

So if a guy uses an inert substrate like promix, where all the nutes must be added, the flush I do periodically is no more that using more water during a watering. The extra water just happens to leach the soil more. I don't see how that might "hurt" anything, since at the end of it the substrate can only hold so much moisture. And the plant gets exactly what it needs in the next feeding. So I'm not sure where the assumption would be...
 
Gquebed

Gquebed

Well-Known Member
chuck estevez said:
I'm pretty positive it;s ak47. I just know how to grow.
here's some tangie/ghost train haze, that is genetic foxtailing
Click to expand...
Well... maybe mine aren't AK47...

Who knows what's being passed off as what anymore....

Whatever it is that I have that is supposed to be AK47 sure seems like it by all descriptions. Anyway, it's my next run... see how it does in a new enviro..
 
chuck estevez

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
Gquebed said:
How so?

Do you feed every single time you water?

I don't.

In veg I, w-f-w
In bloom I, w-f-f-w.

Strain dependant of course.

So if a guy uses an inert substrate like promix, where all the nutes must be added, the flush I do periodically is no more that using more water during a watering. The extra water just happens to leach the soil more. I don't see how that might "hurt" anything, since at the end of it the substrate can only hold so much moisture. And the plant gets exactly what it needs in the next feeding. So I'm not sure where the assumption would be...
Click to expand...
Ok, this might be the one thing I agree with you on. Pro-mix recommends an occasional leaching, coco tends to hold salts more and probably needs a leaching more than any other medium. Hydro, there is no medium, so the salt stays on the roots and could use a good leaching. As far as those salts getting into the delivery system and washing those out at the end, you're reaching
 
A

az2000

Well-Known Member
Gquebed said:
Do you feed every single time you water?
Click to expand...
Yes. I don't understand the rationale for alternating feed/water except if supplying organic teas, innoculants, etc.

You said you "do it periodically to protect against the possibility of salt build up in the soil." If you measured your runoff ppms you'd know if you are getting buildup, could reduce nute strength (and/or increase runoff) and avoid the shoot-in-the-dark flushing.

I see it as a matter of degrees. For example, instead of variation in the supply of nutrients (feed, water) I give a constant level. Instead of shoot-in-the-dark flushing because "why not," I get enough runoff to avoid buildup. (And, as I said, there are people who criticize that, saying I should feed enough to require no runoff. Same "matter of degrees.").

I'm somewhere in the middle.
 
Last edited:
Gquebed

Gquebed

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
Yes. I don't understand the rationale for alternating feed/water except if supplying organic teas, innoculants, etc.

You said you "I do it periodically to protect against the possibility of salt build up in the soil." If you measured your runoff ppms you'd know if you are getting buildup, could reduce nute strength (and/or increase runoff) and avoid the shoot-in-the-dark flushing.

I see it as a matter of degrees. For example, instead of variation in the supply of nutrients (feed, water) I give a constant level. Instead of shoot-in-the-dark flushing because "why not," I get enough runoff to avoid buildup. (And, as I said, there are people who criticize that, saying I should feed enough to require no runoff. Same "matter of degrees.").

I'm somewhere in the middle.
Click to expand...
What would you consider enough run off?

For a 5 gal pot ill use about 5 quarts to water/feed and about 3/4 of quart runs off...

When i "flush" that same pot ill use about 8 quarts and about 3+ quarts runs off...
 
Yodaweed

Yodaweed

Well-Known Member
It all depends on what type of nutrients you're using IMO , if you're using synthetic ferts I would flush for 7-10 days before harvest, if using organic you probably wont need to flush unless your soil is too hot at the end of flower which rarely happens.
 
Yodaweed

Yodaweed

Well-Known Member
Gquebed said:
How so?

Do you feed every single time you water?

I don't.

In veg I, w-f-w
In bloom I, w-f-f-w.

Strain dependant of course.

So if a guy uses an inert substrate like promix, where all the nutes must be added, the flush I do periodically is no more that using more water during a watering. The extra water just happens to leach the soil more. I don't see how that might "hurt" anything, since at the end of it the substrate can only hold so much moisture. And the plant gets exactly what it needs in the next feeding. So I'm not sure where the assumption would be...
Click to expand...
The best way to flush a medium for build ups isn't to use water, it is to use a mild nutrient solution, water by itself will not flush as well as this.
 
Gquebed

Gquebed

Well-Known Member
Yodaweed said:
It all depends on what type of nutrients you're using IMO , if you're using synthetic ferts I would flush for 7-10 days before harvest, if using organic you probably wont need to flush unless your soil is too hot at the end of flower which rarely happens.
Click to expand...
I use synth....

And if i fert heavy then i flush the last two waterings i a row...which would be about 8 days before chop...

If i fert light (like for sensitive strains light white russian) i just do one flush...
 
A

az2000

Well-Known Member
Gquebed said:
What would you consider enough run off?
Click to expand...
I determine that from the runoff ppms, how it rises over time. Late veg, I'm around 1200. Mid flower 1400-1600. Late flower 1600-1800. If it hits 2000 I start to be concerned (reduce nutes and/or more runoff). If it hits 2200 I'm seriously facing trouble. 2500 is where it shows as deficiencies.

It takes a couple grows to dial in the nutrients and soil. But, I have strengths that work with 20% runoff. I'm not meticulous about the runoff. As plants grow, I might not mix enough. I might get very little runoff. The next time I will mix more for 30% runoff.

I have tried reducing strength and zero runoff. I didn't think my plants thrived as well. In my theory, plants take up what they need as they need it. This results in a different mix of nutrients remaining in the soil (than what I provided). So, I think there's a sweet spot of "over abundance" somewhere between "problem-causing too much (and excessive flushing as a result)" and natural "clean your plate" minimalism.

If I grew in a living soil, fed teas, etc., I could see the desirability of minimalism. But, I do a blend of synthetic and organic. Modest overfeeding with modest "flush" each feeding works well.

Maybe all synthetic benefits from more volatility in buildup and reduction. It wouldn't hurt to try a more constant, moderated feed designed for 20% runoff without buildup. Just to see how it compares (if you haven't already).

Gquebed said:
For a 5 gal pot ill use about 5 quarts to water/feed and about 3/4 of quart runs off...

When i "flush" that same pot ill use about 8 quarts and about 3+ quarts runs off...
Click to expand...
The round plastic nursery containers aren't full gallon sizes. A #1 is 0.58 gal. #2 = 1.61gal. #3 = 2.32 gal. They're referred to as "1 gal" as a "trade size." Those are Pennington. Different brands may be different. (Yes, I taped over the drain holes and measured them. I'm insane like that.).

So, I assume a 5 gal is more like 3.8 to 4 gal. I would get 2-3 quarts of runoff. For example, with my #3, I get 1 to 1.5 quarts runoff. (Like I said, sometimes 1, sometimes 2).

What you describe as your "flush" doesn't sound like what people describe as pre-harvest flushing (9 gallons of runoff in the bathtub). You and the anti-flushers may be talking about different things(?). 2 gallons out of a #5 (nominally 4 gallons in size, for 50% runoff) doesn't sound like what people mean by flush. I would call that a "cleanse."

It sounds like the only difference between you and I is that I do a little more runoff each feeding to try and avoid volatility. I feed weaker each feeding for the same reason. People say alternating feed/water helps the soil microbes. But, it seems like the proverbial "six of one, half dozen of the other." The microbes take a big hit, then a vacation. Or, they take a smaller hit all the time.

But, in your case, without a biologically active soil, I definitely don't see a reason to make the supply of nutrients volatile. I know the GH 3-part feeding schedule says "clear water feeding once a week." But, I think that's their way of covering their reputation against overfeeding (which is what happens if their schedule is used full strength). I.e., I think they want to sell more bottles and encourage overuse. But, the footnote about water only is what they point to if it doesn't work out for the overfeeder (or, when people realize they have to do 5/8 strength compared to the schedule).

I used to grow in Pro-Mix HP (plus perlite) and GH 3-part. It worked really well. It dried a little faster than I felt was desireable. And, I wanted a more soil'y medium. I started adding 20% Kellogg Patio Plus (potting mix) and I love it. My schedule is here if you want to try something different, see if there's a taste difference, etc. It's a light soil, inexpensive nutrients, flexible sources (I can use different things to hit the NPK ratios I want).

I've got way more than I can use. If you wanted to try it I could mail the three base ingredients for you to try. I know what it's like to buy bottles of stuff to try things (and end up with a lot of bottles).
 
Yodaweed

Yodaweed

Well-Known Member
Gquebed said:
Like 25% of manufacturer recommended ? Or ???

And you mean with synth ferts?
Click to expand...
Basically do like 10% of what the manufacturer recommends, just a very mild nutrient solution to push the bad stuff out, helps rejuvenate plants great, then water 1 once when she dries and get back to normal nutrient schedule. If you are having salt build up or PH lockout in my opinion this is the best way to correct it. Sometimes it is too late tho and I noticed usually this happens during flower, if you are vegging you can usually get them back 100% healthy.
 
orbo

orbo

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
I determine that from the runoff ppms, how it rises over time. Late veg, I'm around 1200. Mid flower 1400-1600. Late flower 1600-1800. If it hits 2000 I start to be concerned (reduce nutes and/or more runoff). If it hits 2200 I'm seriously facing trouble. 2500 is where it shows as deficiencies.

It takes a couple grows to dial in the nutrients and soil. But, I have strengths that work with 20% runoff. I'm not meticulous about the runoff. As plants grow, I might not mix enough. I might get very little runoff. The next time I will mix more for 30% runoff.

I have tried reducing strength and zero runoff. I didn't think my plants thrived as well. In my theory, plants take up what they need as they need it. This results in a different mix of nutrients remaining in the soil (than what I provided). So, I think there's a sweet spot of "over abundance" somewhere between "problem-causing too much (and excessive flushing as a result)" and natural "clean your plate" minimalism.

If I grew in a living soil, fed teas, etc., I could see the desirability of minimalism. But, I do a blend of synthetic and organic. Modest overfeeding with modest "flush" each feeding works well.

Maybe all synthetic benefits from more volatility in buildup and reduction. It wouldn't hurt to try a more constant, moderated feed designed for 20% runoff without buildup. Just to see how it compares (if you haven't already).



The round plastic nursery containers aren't full gallon sizes. A #1 is 0.58 gal. #2 = 1.61gal. #3 = 2.32 gal. They're referred to as "1 gal" as a "trade size." Those are Pennington. Different brands may be different. (Yes, I taped over the drain holes and measured them. I'm insane like that.).

So, I assume a 5 gal is more like 3.8 to 4 gal. I would get 2-3 quarts of runoff. For example, with my #3, I get 1 to 1.5 quarts runoff. (Like I said, sometimes 1, sometimes 2).

What you describe as your "flush" doesn't sound like what people describe as pre-harvest flushing (9 gallons of runoff in the bathtub). You and the anti-flushers may be talking about different things(?). 2 gallons out of a #5 (nominally 4 gallons in size, for 50% runoff) doesn't sound like what people mean by flush. I would call that a "cleanse."

It sounds like the only difference between you and I is that I do a little more runoff each feeding to try and avoid volatility. I feed weaker each feeding for the same reason. People say alternating feed/water helps the soil microbes. But, it seems like the proverbial "six of one, half dozen of the other." The microbes take a big hit, then a vacation. Or, they take a smaller hit all the time.

But, in your case, without a biologically active soil, I definitely don't see a reason to make the supply of nutrients volatile. I know the GH 3-part feeding schedule says "clear water feeding once a week." But, I think that's their way of covering their reputation against overfeeding (which is what happens if their schedule is used full strength). I.e., I think they want to sell more bottles and encourage overuse. But, the footnote about water only is what they point to if it doesn't work out for the overfeeder (or, when people realize they have to do 5/8 strength compared to the schedule).

I used to grow in Pro-Mix HP (plus perlite) and GH 3-part. It worked really well. It dried a little faster than I felt was desireable. And, I wanted a more soil'y medium. I started adding 20% Kellogg Patio Plus (potting mix) and I love it. My schedule is here if you want to try something different, see if there's a taste difference, etc. It's a light soil, inexpensive nutrients, flexible sources (I can use different things to hit the NPK ratios I want).

I've got way more than I can use. If you wanted to try it I could mail the three base ingredients for you to try. I know what it's like to buy bottles of stuff to try things (and end up with a lot of bottles).
Click to expand...
One of the best posts I've read. :clap:
 
Gquebed

Gquebed

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
I determine that from the runoff ppms, how it rises over time. Late veg, I'm around 1200. Mid flower 1400-1600. Late flower 1600-1800. If it hits 2000 I start to be concerned (reduce nutes and/or more runoff). If it hits 2200 I'm seriously facing trouble. 2500 is where it shows as deficiencies.

It takes a couple grows to dial in the nutrients and soil. But, I have strengths that work with 20% runoff. I'm not meticulous about the runoff. As plants grow, I might not mix enough. I might get very little runoff. The next time I will mix more for 30% runoff.

I have tried reducing strength and zero runoff. I didn't think my plants thrived as well. In my theory, plants take up what they need as they need it. This results in a different mix of nutrients remaining in the soil (than what I provided). So, I think there's a sweet spot of "over abundance" somewhere between "problem-causing too much (and excessive flushing as a result)" and natural "clean your plate" minimalism.

If I grew in a living soil, fed teas, etc., I could see the desirability of minimalism. But, I do a blend of synthetic and organic. Modest overfeeding with modest "flush" each feeding works well.

Maybe all synthetic benefits from more volatility in buildup and reduction. It wouldn't hurt to try a more constant, moderated feed designed for 20% runoff without buildup. Just to see how it compares (if you haven't already).



The round plastic nursery containers aren't full gallon sizes. A #1 is 0.58 gal. #2 = 1.61gal. #3 = 2.32 gal. They're referred to as "1 gal" as a "trade size." Those are Pennington. Different brands may be different. (Yes, I taped over the drain holes and measured them. I'm insane like that.).

So, I assume a 5 gal is more like 3.8 to 4 gal. I would get 2-3 quarts of runoff. For example, with my #3, I get 1 to 1.5 quarts runoff. (Like I said, sometimes 1, sometimes 2).

What you describe as your "flush" doesn't sound like what people describe as pre-harvest flushing (9 gallons of runoff in the bathtub). You and the anti-flushers may be talking about different things(?). 2 gallons out of a #5 (nominally 4 gallons in size, for 50% runoff) doesn't sound like what people mean by flush. I would call that a "cleanse."

It sounds like the only difference between you and I is that I do a little more runoff each feeding to try and avoid volatility. I feed weaker each feeding for the same reason. People say alternating feed/water helps the soil microbes. But, it seems like the proverbial "six of one, half dozen of the other." The microbes take a big hit, then a vacation. Or, they take a smaller hit all the time.

But, in your case, without a biologically active soil, I definitely don't see a reason to make the supply of nutrients volatile. I know the GH 3-part feeding schedule says "clear water feeding once a week." But, I think that's their way of covering their reputation against overfeeding (which is what happens if their schedule is used full strength). I.e., I think they want to sell more bottles and encourage overuse. But, the footnote about water only is what they point to if it doesn't work out for the overfeeder (or, when people realize they have to do 5/8 strength compared to the schedule).

I used to grow in Pro-Mix HP (plus perlite) and GH 3-part. It worked really well. It dried a little faster than I felt was desireable. And, I wanted a more soil'y medium. I started adding 20% Kellogg Patio Plus (potting mix) and I love it. My schedule is here if you want to try something different, see if there's a taste difference, etc. It's a light soil, inexpensive nutrients, flexible sources (I can use different things to hit the NPK ratios I want).

I've got way more than I can use. If you wanted to try it I could mail the three base ingredients for you to try. I know what it's like to buy bottles of stuff to try things (and end up with a lot of bottles).
Click to expand...
az2000 said:
I determine that from the runoff ppms, how it rises over time. Late veg, I'm around 1200. Mid flower 1400-1600. Late flower 1600-1800. If it hits 2000 I start to be concerned (reduce nutes and/or more runoff). If it hits 2200 I'm seriously facing trouble. 2500 is where it shows as deficiencies.

It takes a couple grows to dial in the nutrients and soil. But, I have strengths that work with 20% runoff. I'm not meticulous about the runoff. As plants grow, I might not mix enough. I might get very little runoff. The next time I will mix more for 30% runoff.

I have tried reducing strength and zero runoff. I didn't think my plants thrived as well. In my theory, plants take up what they need as they need it. This results in a different mix of nutrients remaining in the soil (than what I provided). So, I think there's a sweet spot of "over abundance" somewhere between "problem-causing too much (and excessive flushing as a result)" and natural "clean your plate" minimalism.

If I grew in a living soil, fed teas, etc., I could see the desirability of minimalism. But, I do a blend of synthetic and organic. Modest overfeeding with modest "flush" each feeding works well.

Maybe all synthetic benefits from more volatility in buildup and reduction. It wouldn't hurt to try a more constant, moderated feed designed for 20% runoff without buildup. Just to see how it compares (if you haven't already).



The round plastic nursery containers aren't full gallon sizes. A #1 is 0.58 gal. #2 = 1.61gal. #3 = 2.32 gal. They're referred to as "1 gal" as a "trade size." Those are Pennington. Different brands may be different. (Yes, I taped over the drain holes and measured them. I'm insane like that.).

So, I assume a 5 gal is more like 3.8 to 4 gal. I would get 2-3 quarts of runoff. For example, with my #3, I get 1 to 1.5 quarts runoff. (Like I said, sometimes 1, sometimes 2).

What you describe as your "flush" doesn't sound like what people describe as pre-harvest flushing (9 gallons of runoff in the bathtub). You and the anti-flushers may be talking about different things(?). 2 gallons out of a #5 (nominally 4 gallons in size, for 50% runoff) doesn't sound like what people mean by flush. I would call that a "cleanse."

It sounds like the only difference between you and I is that I do a little more runoff each feeding to try and avoid volatility. I feed weaker each feeding for the same reason. People say alternating feed/water helps the soil microbes. But, it seems like the proverbial "six of one, half dozen of the other." The microbes take a big hit, then a vacation. Or, they take a smaller hit all the time.

But, in your case, without a biologically active soil, I definitely don't see a reason to make the supply of nutrients volatile. I know the GH 3-part feeding schedule says "clear water feeding once a week." But, I think that's their way of covering their reputation against overfeeding (which is what happens if their schedule is used full strength). I.e., I think they want to sell more bottles and encourage overuse. But, the footnote about water only is what they point to if it doesn't work out for the overfeeder (or, when people realize they have to do 5/8 strength compared to the schedule).

I used to grow in Pro-Mix HP (plus perlite) and GH 3-part. It worked really well. It dried a little faster than I felt was desireable. And, I wanted a more soil'y medium. I started adding 20% Kellogg Patio Plus (potting mix) and I love it. My schedule is here if you want to try something different, see if there's a taste difference, etc. It's a light soil, inexpensive nutrients, flexible sources (I can use different things to hit the NPK ratios I want).

I've got way more than I can use. If you wanted to try it I could mail the three base ingredients for you to try. I know what it's like to buy bottles of stuff to try things (and end up with a lot of bottles).
Click to expand...

This is a great post like orbo said.

Opened my eyes to a few things. I'm going to start watching run off PPMs, but I wonder... your numbers account for the solids that come through in the run off, I would guess?

Seems like I'm not far off the 20% guidline you gave for run off. The fact that I'm not quite there is just about being lazy and cheap... in mixing less...lol


And ya... my 5 gal pot are the standard square ones and they are nowhere near a true 5 gals... maybe 4ish like you say. (I almost taped them up to measure...lol)

Anyway, from what you describe I think I know what I need to do to dial in a run-off scale that'll work for me. And thanks for that. :)
 
Gquebed

Gquebed

Well-Known Member
Yodaweed said:
Basically do like 10% of what the manufacturer recommends, just a very mild nutrient solution to push the bad stuff out, helps rejuvenate plants great, then water 1 once when she dries and get back to normal nutrient schedule. If you are having salt build up or PH lockout in my opinion this is the best way to correct it. Sometimes it is too late tho and I noticed usually this happens during flower, if you are vegging you can usually get them back 100% healthy.
Click to expand...
I only ever had the salt problem once. Ever since, I've been using the watering regimen as I described and it has prevented that. But as az2000 has pointed out, there's alternatives to that, which are worth investigating...
 
chuck estevez

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
Gquebed said:
This is a great post like orbo said.

Opened my eyes to a few things. I'm going to start watching run off PPMs, but I wonder... your numbers account for the solids that come through in the run off, I would guess?

Seems like I'm not far off the 20% guidline you gave for run off. The fact that I'm not quite there is just about being lazy and cheap... in mixing less...lol


And ya... my 5 gal pot are the standard square ones and they are nowhere near a true 5 gals... maybe 4ish like you say. (I almost taped them up to measure...lol)

Anyway, from what you describe I think I know what I need to do to dial in a run-off scale that'll work for me. And thanks for that. :)
Click to expand...
blind leading the blind,lol
 
A

az2000

Well-Known Member
Gquebed said:
I'm going to start watching run off PPMs, but I wonder... your numbers account for the solids that come through in the run off, I would guess?
Click to expand...
I don't understand what constitutes the ppms in runoff. My soil is very light (20% soil, 80% soilless) and low nutrient. But, I get 500-600ppm runoff to start. I don't know what they come from.

So, yes, my PPM values (different stages of growth) have something to do with my soil, my nutrients. Where I get lockout (2500ppm) might be specific too. But, a few months ago someone said they get it at 2500 too. (That was actually ironic because I was reading my PPM meter incorrectly. When it flashed 10x, I thought it meant "add 1000" and so, I thought I got lockout at 1250. He posted 2500, which I thought was insanely high. A couple days later the lightbulb turned on. :) My 250 reading x10 is 2500.).

I think its a useful way to see what the condition of the medium is. But, yes, it takes awhile watching it rise (or not) to find what the plants like, where lockout occurs, how runoff volume affects it.
 
Gquebed

Gquebed

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
I don't understand what constitutes the ppms in runoff. My soil is very light (20% soil, 80% soilless) and low nutrient. But, I get 500-600ppm runoff to start. I don't know what they come from.

So, yes, my PPM values (different stages of growth) have something to do with my soil, my nutrients. Where I get lockout (2500ppm) might be specific too. But, a few months ago someone said they get it at 2500 too. (That was actually ironic because I was reading my PPM meter incorrectly. When it flashed 10x, I thought it meant "add 1000" and so, I thought I got lockout at 1250. He posted 2500, which I thought was insanely high. A couple days later the lightbulb turned on. :) My 250 reading x10 is 2500.).

I think its a useful way to see what the condition of the medium is. But, yes, it takes awhile watching it rise (or not) to find what the plants like, where lockout occurs, how runoff volume affects it.
Click to expand...

Well, the PPM meter measures solids in the water. it doesn't distinguish what solids, just all solids. Run off will carry soil in it and other particulate matter, which the PPM
meter will pick up. So I always thought that was a skewed and therefore useless measurement. But if you're using the same line of nutes all the time and the same soil, it wouldn't take long to develop a scale that accounts for soil and particulate matter in the run off. So a PPM measurement in run off could be useful as a rough guage on soil "saltiness", as long as it is applied only when all conditions (soil/nutes) remain the same. My scale would not work for somebody else using different product and so on....
 
Resinhound

Resinhound

Well-Known Member
For what its worth I see lockout on my autos above 1.5ec.I feed every watering (daily 1/2 gallon in 3 gallon pots,very little run off) at .7-.8 ec in coco.When I "flush" it amounts to running 1gallon through at .8ec,I monitor the runoff.If the ec is rising then I know I have build up and adjust ec accordingly.Ive heard alot about runoff ppms in coco not meaning anything,but the system seems to be working for me.
 
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