Yekke
Well-Known Member
The plant cells are very selective to what they allow inside the plant. It simply doesn't work like that.
flushing during flower?
- Thread starter danny2980
- Start date
chuck estevez
Well-Known Member
probably because plants uptake nutrient IONS, not salts,LOL
Fertility and Fertilization
Many people confuse plant nutrition with plant fertilization. Plant nutrition refers to the need for basic chemical elements for plant growth.
The term fertilization refers to the application of plant nutrients to supplement the nutrients naturally occurring in the soil. Nutrients may be applied as commercial manufactured fertilizers, organic fertilizers and/or other soil amendments. Organic fertilizers and soil amendments are typically low in plant-available nutrient content. For additional information about fertilizers and soil amendments, refer to the CMG GardenNotes #232,Understanding Fertilizers and #241, Soil Amendments.
Adequate soil fertility is only one of the many soil-related growth factors. Fertilizers will increase desirable plant growth only if the plant is deficient in the nutrient applied and other growth factors are not also significantly limiting plant growth. Fertilization will not compensate for poor soil preparation, the lack of water, weed competition and other non-nutrient growth limiting factors! Fertilization will not enhance desired growth if the nutrients applied are not deficient.
From the nutritional perspective, a plant cannot tell if applied nutrients come from a manufactured fertilizer or a natural source. Plants use nutrients in ionic forms. Soil microorganisms must break down organic soil amendments, organic fertilizers and many manufactured fertilizers before the nutrients become usable by plants.
From a nutritional perspective, the primary difference between manufactured and organic soil amendments/organic fertilizers is the speed at which nutrients become available for plant use. For manufactured fertilizer, their release is typically, but not always, a few days to weeks. Some are specially formulated as “controlled release”, “slow release” or “time release” products that release over a period of months. With natural-organic fertilizer, nutrients typically become available over a period of months or years. However, there are exceptions to this general rule. The high salt content of some manufactured fertilizers and some organic soil amendments could slow the activity of beneficial soil microorganisms.
Benefits of organic fertilizers and soil amendments include improvements in soil tilth (suitability of the soil to support plant growth). This should not be confused with “fertilization”, a distinctly different soil management objective. Organic soil amendments are typically low in nutrient content.
Remember that fertility is only part of the soil’s role in supporting plant growth. The organic content of the soil also directly affects plant growth due to its influence on soil tilth and the activity of beneficial soil microorganisms. Relying solely on manufactured fertilizers is not recommended as this does not support good soil tilth.
Plant Nutrients
Plants need 17 elements for normal growth. Carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen come from the air and water. Soil is the principle source of other nutrients. Primary nutrients (nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium) are used in relatively large amounts by plants, and often are supplemented as fertilizers.
Secondary nutrients (calcium, magnesium, and sulfur) are also used in large amounts but are typically readily available and in adequate supply. Micronutrients or trace elements are needed only in small amounts. These include iron, zinc, molybdenum, manganese, boron, copper, cobalt, and chlorine. [Table 1]
Roots take up nutrients primarily as ions dissolved in the soil’s water. The ions may be positively charged (cations) or negatively charged (anions). The nutrient ion soup in the soil’s water is in a constant state of flux as the variety of ions dissolve in and precipitate out of solution.
Clay particles and organic matter in the soil are negatively charged, attracting the positively charged cations (like ammonium, NH4+, and potassium, K+) and making the cations resistant to leaching. Negatively charged anions (like nitrate, N03-) are prone to leaching and can become a water pollution problem. Both ammonium and nitrate are important plant nitrogen sources and are commonly found in salt forms in fertilizers.
The Cation Exchange Capacity, CEC,is a measurement of the soil’s capacity to hold cation nutrients. More precisely, it is a measurement of the capacity of the negatively charged clay and organic matter to attract and hold positively charged cations. CEC is useful in comparing the potential for different soils to hold and supply nutrients for plant growth.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/gardennotes/231.html
Last edited:
Gquebed
Well-Known Member
probably because plants uptake nutrient IONS, not salts,LOL
View attachment 3565670
Fertility and Fertilization
Many people confuse plant nutrition with plant fertilization. Plant nutrition refers to the need for basic chemical elements for plant growth.
The term fertilization refers to the application of plant nutrients to supplement the nutrients naturally occurring in the soil. Nutrients may be applied as commercial manufactured fertilizers, organic fertilizers and/or other soil amendments. Organic fertilizers and soil amendments are typically low in plant-available nutrient content. For additional information about fertilizers and soil amendments, refer to the CMG GardenNotes #232,Understanding Fertilizers and #241, Soil Amendments.
Adequate soil fertility is only one of the many soil-related growth factors. Fertilizers will increase desirable plant growth only if the plant is deficient in the nutrient applied and other growth factors are not also significantly limiting plant growth. Fertilization will not compensate for poor soil preparation, the lack of water, weed competition and other non-nutrient growth limiting factors! Fertilization will not enhance desired growth if the nutrients applied are not deficient.
From the nutritional perspective, a plant cannot tell if applied nutrients come from a manufactured fertilizer or a natural source. Plants use nutrients in ionic forms. Soil microorganisms must break down organic soil amendments, organic fertilizers and many manufactured fertilizers before the nutrients become usable by plants.
From a nutritional perspective, the primary difference between manufactured and organic soil amendments/organic fertilizers is the speed at which nutrients become available for plant use. For manufactured fertilizer, their release is typically, but not always, a few days to weeks. Some are specially formulated as “controlled release”, “slow release” or “time release” products that release over a period of months. With natural-organic fertilizer, nutrients typically become available over a period of months or years. However, there are exceptions to this general rule. The high salt content of some manufactured fertilizers and some organic soil amendments could slow the activity of beneficial soil microorganisms.
Benefits of organic fertilizers and soil amendments include improvements in soil tilth (suitability of the soil to support plant growth). This should not be confused with “fertilization”, a distinctly different soil management objective. Organic soil amendments are typically low in nutrient content.
Remember that fertility is only part of the soil’s role in supporting plant growth. The organic content of the soil also directly affects plant growth due to its influence on soil tilth and the activity of beneficial soil microorganisms. Relying solely on manufactured fertilizers is not recommended as this does not support good soil tilth.
Plant Nutrients
Plants need 17 elements for normal growth. Carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen come from the air and water. Soil is the principle source of other nutrients. Primary nutrients (nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium) are used in relatively large amounts by plants, and often are supplemented as fertilizers.
Secondary nutrients (calcium, magnesium, and sulfur) are also used in large amounts but are typically readily available and in adequate supply. Micronutrients or trace elements are needed only in small amounts. These include iron, zinc, molybdenum, manganese, boron, copper, cobalt, and chlorine. [Table 1]
Roots take up nutrients primarily as ions dissolved in the soil’s water. The ions may be positively charged (cations) or negatively charged (anions). The nutrient ion soup in the soil’s water is in a constant state of flux as the variety of ions dissolve in and precipitate out of solution.
Clay particles and organic matter in the soil are negatively charged, attracting the positively charged cations (like ammonium, NH4+, and potassium, K+) and making the cations resistant to leaching. Negatively charged anions (like nitrate, N03-) are prone to leaching and can become a water pollution problem. Both ammonium and nitrate are important plant nitrogen sources and are commonly found in salt forms in fertilizers.
The Cation Exchange Capacity, CEC,is a measurement of the soil’s capacity to hold cation nutrients. More precisely, it is a measurement of the capacity of the negatively charged clay and organic matter to attract and hold positively charged cations. CEC is useful in comparing the potential for different soils to hold and supply nutrients for plant growth.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/gardennotes/231.html
True, but that doesn't change the delivery system. I don't see how this is relevant to what I said.
Gquebed
Well-Known Member
Not talking about what the plants takes or doesn't take. I'm talking about the delivery system.
Yekke
Well-Known Member
The delivery system is not free flowing.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Because flushing as you exactly put it - will not "flush" anything from the plant!
Pay attention to Yekke and Chuck.....
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Sigh.....a "flush" in the last 2 weeks gains you nothing for final finish (taste and burn)
I think we might be crossed on the flush thing.
I know "leeching" can be useful. My point is if you don't overfeed you don't HAVE to.
Leeching with multiple times the pot size can cause troubles.
You can achieve the same results by straight watering in the same time it takes to dry out....I water a metered amount everyday for the +o2.....That helps make the "water out" work better.
It's simply what I've found out over the years.....
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Yekke
Well-Known Member
My experience shown otherwise in some systems.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
You left out the "taste and burn" part...and I don't care what system you use. you will not improve taste or burn quality!
We can agree to disagree then.....Your argument simply leaves it open for the newbies to believe things that don't work that way.
Gquebed
Well-Known Member
Chuck was talking about usage, not delivery. He did not address my point. Neither have you.
Gquebed
Well-Known Member
The only relevant part in Chucks copy and paste post is this:
"The nutrient ion soup in the soil’s water is in a constant state of flux as the variety of ions dissolve in and precipitate out of solution."
And it supports my point.
That "soup" needs to travel. The goods need to get to site before they can be used and they do so by the pathways in the pics i posted. Otherwise there would be no use for them and nonexistant.
There is a benefit to be had by "flushing" those pathways out, which is taste, in my opinion. Some may argue otherwise.
But there is certainly no downside to flushing those pathways out, execpt the actual work.
"The nutrient ion soup in the soil’s water is in a constant state of flux as the variety of ions dissolve in and precipitate out of solution."
And it supports my point.
That "soup" needs to travel. The goods need to get to site before they can be used and they do so by the pathways in the pics i posted. Otherwise there would be no use for them and nonexistant.
There is a benefit to be had by "flushing" those pathways out, which is taste, in my opinion. Some may argue otherwise.
But there is certainly no downside to flushing those pathways out, execpt the actual work.
chuck estevez
Well-Known Member
I just look at your avatar and know not to read anything you post, but thanks for still being butt hurt after all this time, and i even took down your stupid quotes.LOL
I have a hard time following the arguments for/against because they often sound religious in nature. What you said reminds me of something which implies merit in flushing (especially for those who do the mutli-bottle "lineup" regimens, heavy feeding, boosting, etc.).
When there are nutrient deficiencies we hear about mobile nutrients being consumed(?). Like, N coming from lower leaves? It makes sense to me that flushing (or better yet, not overfeeding so much to require flushing) and/or reducing nutrients the last 2-3 feedings could improve performance (if salts were so high in the soil as to create acidity, impede microbial health) and taste (if the plant was approaching toxicity levels?).
I and others noticed a taste difference when I switched from GH 3-part (all synthetic) to Grow More Sea Grow (some organic sources, and I supplement with organic sources). So, it seems indisputable to me that something gets into the plant which affects taste.
I think the problem is when flushing is stated as a must-do (always helps) practice. I think it depends on the nutrients (if synthetic) and style (force feeding, over feeding).
Gquebed
Well-Known Member
Never seen foxtailing before?
you must be a shitty grower then?
or maybe you just never saw foxtailing before.
chuck estevez
Well-Known Member
I have seen it from people who don't have their rooms or growing knowledge dialed in
Gquebed
Well-Known Member
I agree. Flushing (in the sense I've described) isn't a must do for me. But if it doesn't hurt, why not? I mean I do it periodically to protect against the possibility of salt build up in the soil (I don't use organic nutes). And I do it at the end to clean the pipes before I chop for better tatse. To each their own.
But to say there is no benefit to it at all? I believe that to be misinformation....
Gquebed
Well-Known Member
Some strains do it consistently. Like AK47. It's foxtailed every time I've grown it. Same with the others who i know who've grown it. Must be genetics, cause 3 different phenos have done the same on me. I like it. I haven't had any other strain do it on me yet... same environment....
chuck estevez
Well-Known Member
If it's not needed, "not hurting" sounds like an assumption. Measuring runoff ppm would indicate whether it's needed, if it's not needed, "why do it?"
For example, monitoring runoff ppms, I dialed in my nutrient strength and runoff volume to avoid buildup. I could say I "mini-flush" each feeding. I think that's better than winding up a lot of nutrients in the soil, then unwinding with heavier, less frequent flushes.
So, it seems like a matter of degrees. And, yes, I've actually had someone say I should dial in the nute strength so that not a drop of runoff is necessary. I personally like overfeeding a little (and wiping the plate clean a little each feeding, resetting the ratio of available nutrients with a moderately heavy runoff.).
I'm not an expert on plant biology, so saying "I agree" doesn't mean much. But, I agree.
Just from my experience with organic vs synthetic nutrients (and the science which says it shouldn't affect taste), if you notice a difference, then you notice a difference.If you haven't already tried, I would suggest reducing nutrient strength through the grow so you don't have to do abrupt flushing (see if you notice a difference). And, try replacing some of your regimen with organic sources (if you're not in hydro).
I don't flush, nor even reduce nutrients and I have had foxtailing. I get it more with a kush strain which never seems to ripen. I wait too long and then it start growing again.