Even the socialists hate Obamacare

londonfog said:

Question ( Puppets no need to answer ) If AHC is not the answer, but one is most certainly needed. How do we fix our healthcare system?

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I run a rehab department at our local hospital PT, so I'm slightly more qualified than pizza delivery guy but not much.

mostly it's going to take a wholesale change on the mentality involved from everyone, patients, politicians and providers. We have evolved into a one sized fits all delivery system thanks to government regulations and the FDA's big pharma corruption. We are not all the same, our health care needs are not all the same. Unfortunately with things like core measures we become the same in the eyes of medicine. You present with X, text book says you should do Y, government says you MUST do Y so Y gets done. If you are in the minority that Y doesn't help, sorry, we only pay for Y because that's what the gov insists on.

China spends 10% of it's costs on care and 90% on preventative medicine. We are the opposite. I'm not saying we need to be exactly like China but we could benefit being closer to 50/50.

EMTALA tells professionals in the ER that they are too stupid to know what an emergency is but the politicians are not.... We have people that make 100 visits a year, NOBODY has 100 emergencies a year (ok, there may be 1 out there but come on), a trained medical professional should be able to say, you'll be fine, when you wake up tomorrow go see a doctor, we have real emergencies to attend to.

Medical courts. We have juvenille, federal, traffic, divorce etc. etc. Medical courts would speed up the cases that cause millions in unnecessary tests and procedures while every body cya during the lawsuits. This is a cost that's never figured in when they talk about medical lawsuit costs. This cost far outweighs the settlements, clogs up not only the court system but our clinics as doctors order more tests and pills. It amazes me how many patients get better after their suit is settled. I've treated patients that have been hurt on a job that they hate for years, they settle and I never see them again. We also see a pattern with medical professionals who are shaky at best much quicker. Weed out the bad seeds asap.

Fuck the FDA! right in the ass. They are every bit as bad and corrupt as the EPA if not more so. Anybody who works for the FDA and owns stock in drug companies should be in jail, let alone sit on their fucking boards. How have even let this happen? This is a no-brainer common sense thing that nobody I know has ever argued. It's harder to Undo in DC than it is Do.


that's just a few off the top of my head that save money without any effort at all.

I've got a bunch of typical free market solutions that would also help but I'm sure you don't count those or you wouldn't have asked your question. It's not like you haven't been hearing them for the last 3 years.

londonfog said:

so you really would rather have the poor depend on churches and private charities for health care ????

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Thats bullshit and you know it, you lead on like we have poor people in the streets crawling around screaming for help. We have free government insurance for people under poverty, quit trying to create shit that doesn't exist.

One question noone has addressed yet...

How does the US Govt spend more on healthcare per capita than most countries with Universal Healthcare?

History proves that when there is no competitive free market, prices stagnate or increase while quality decreases. If we are spending SO much on healthcare, why have we dropped in quality?




Since I know you liberals like to cite Sweden's health care system..lets look at it.

http://spectator.org/archives/2011/09/29/free-market-sweden-social-demo


"The second distinguishing feature was Sweden's vision of state-provided social protection as a right. This led to successive governments insisting upon universal coverage and the costs being covered by general taxation.

It took several decades, but the relentless logic of these commitments eventually eroded the Swedish economy's competitiveness. The situation was worsened by the decision of governments in the 1970s to hasten Sweden's long march towards the Social Democratic nirvana. This included expanding welfare programs, nationalizing many industries, expanding and deepening regulation, and -- of course -- increasing taxation to punitive levels to pay for it all."

"Over the next twenty years, the Swedish dream turned decidedly nightmarish. The Swedish parliamentarian Johnny Munkhammar points out that "In 1970, Sweden had the world's fourth-highest GDP per capita. By 1990, it had fallen 13 positions. In those 20 years, real wages in Sweden increased by only one percentage point." So much for helping "the workers."

"Facing severe economic stagnation, Sweden began implementing several rather un-social democratic measures in the early 1990s. This included curtaining its public sector deficit and reducing marginal tax-rates and levels of state ownership. Another change involved allowing private retirement schemes, a development that was accompanied by the state contributing less to pensions."

"But liberalization wasn't limited to taxation. Sweden's new government accelerated privatizations of once-state owned businesses. It also permitted private providers to enter the healthcare market, thereby introducing competition into what had been one of the world's most socialized medical systems."

Johnny Retro said:

History proves that when there is no competitive free market, prices stagnate or increase while quality decreases. If we are spending SO much on healthcare, why have we dropped in quality?

Since I know you liberals like to cite Sweden's health care system..lets look at it.

http://spectator.org/archives/2011/09/29/free-market-sweden-social-demo


"The second distinguishing feature was Sweden's vision of state-provided social protection as a right. This led to successive governments insisting upon universal coverage and the costs being covered by general taxation.

It took several decades, but the relentless logic of these commitments eventually eroded the Swedish economy's competitiveness. The situation was worsened by the decision of governments in the 1970s to hasten Sweden's long march towards the Social Democratic nirvana. This included expanding welfare programs, nationalizing many industries, expanding and deepening regulation, and -- of course -- increasing taxation to punitive levels to pay for it all."

"Over the next twenty years, the Swedish dream turned decidedly nightmarish. The Swedish parliamentarian Johnny Munkhammar points out that "In 1970, Sweden had the world's fourth-highest GDP per capita. By 1990, it had fallen 13 positions. In those 20 years, real wages in Sweden increased by only one percentage point." So much for helping "the workers."

"Facing severe economic stagnation, Sweden began implementing several rather un-social democratic measures in the early 1990s. This included curtaining its public sector deficit and reducing marginal tax-rates and levels of state ownership. Another change involved allowing private retirement schemes, a development that was accompanied by the state contributing less to pensions."

"But liberalization wasn't limited to taxation. Sweden's new government accelerated privatizations of once-state owned businesses. It also permitted private providers to enter the healthcare market, thereby introducing competition into what had been one of the world's most socialized medical systems."

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9 year old graphs are weak sauce.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_(PPP)_per_capita

Basically the same, has much changed tho?

Harrekin said:

One question noone has addressed yet...

How does the US Govt spend more on healthcare per capita than most countries with Universal Healthcare?

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That is because we are being raped of our livelihood literally, the drug companies rake in huge profits. It is only getting worse.

People are starting to see the flaws in a supply side medical industry. I agree with Obamacare simply for the fact that if all forms of medicine that aren't approved by the FDA and other regulatory bodies are made effectively illegal to practice (Thomas Jefferson's worst nightmare along with central banking) than the medicine they are pushing should at least be accessible to all. Stress is just as bad for you as prescription medicine. I'm going to risk sounding like JustAnotherHead and say, sometimes you are better off healing yourself.

Harrekin said:

One question noone has addressed yet...

How does the US Govt spend more on healthcare per capita than most countries with Universal Healthcare?

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Becuase our medicine is profit driven not outcome driven. I myself having also worked in the medical field can tell you first hand. Doctors order tests for 3 reasons.
1 cover their ass
2 Kick backs from lab
3 profit from reading tests both for them and for the organization they work for

I got burnt out really quick doing blood draws on terminally ill people. I felt really bad waking a woman up at 3 in the morning to do a blood draw just so the doctor could make 70 bucks confiriming
Yep she is dying

And the FDA isnt the enemy
Without the FDA companys like Lotus light would be able to sell "horny goat weed" as medicine and people would be taking echinacea to cure liver cancer

londonfog said:

so you really would rather have the poor depend on churches and private charities for health care ????

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I, personally, would rather depend on someone who volunteers to help and has a vested interest in making sure their limited resources are used to their full capacity.
I'm reminded of what kind of service the government employees that I deal with, display and practice. Their lack of interest and detached attitude is a common characteristic. Are these the kind of people you want to deal with when your health is at risk?

nontheist said:

LOL, No put you wouldnt wanting me drinking a pint and telling you what the fuck you guys need to do to "make it better". Its just a respect issue.

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lol this is an international forum and if you were sat down the pub enjoying a pint with me. then theres no way on earth that i would expect you to sit silently.

if you were to be a dick then i'd tell you but it wouldn't have a thing to do with where your from

Mr Neutron said:

I, personally, would rather depend on someone who volunteers to help and has a vested interest in making sure their limited resources are used to their full capacity.
I'm reminded of what kind of service the government employees that I deal with, display and practice. Their lack of interest and detached attitude is a common characteristic. Are these the kind of people you want to deal with when your health is at risk?

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So what church deals with the atheists?

of course you agree with Obamacare abandon, I haven't see you disagree with anything Obama yet.

why do you agree with it, what's your favorite part? the increased tax on rolling walkers or taking over student loans? how about the part that says DOS based emars MUST use a complex password of NAAAAAA (no deviating from this either because it's spelled out like this). How about the part that no longer lets me use my FSA on over the counter expenditures like aspirin or alka-seltzer without a prescription?

you have no clue how bad this bill is because you are only going by what you want to be in it and what your favorite politician who has not read it yet told you was in it. This does nothing that Obama promised while campaigning.

ginjawarrior said:

lol this is an international forum and if you were sat down the pub enjoying a pint with me. then theres no way on earth that i would expect you to sit silently.

if you were to be a dick then i'd tell you but it wouldn't have a thing to do with where your from

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Yeah you're right. Guess I have to be the ass and point out that almost everyone that is agreeing with this POS bill on this thread isn't even in the country.

deprave said:

No speak English? I would rather people have good health care of course, as would you. I would rather see the major issues addressed, insurance was not one of the major issues only a consequence of the major issues we face..... untill the root causes are addressed, which I laid out, big pharma being a major player, then the problems will continue...

Regardless...

Penn has something to say to you...




That is just to troll you since your going off on this Parisian shit and can't have an intelligent discussion so fuck you.

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WOW dude you agreed with what Mr.Neutron said and I asked do you think that would really help....and now you bring a fucking magician to make a point.. like I care WTF Penn says ( did enjoy his show in Vegas though ). Why the hell you mad just because I asked a question about something you agreed to.

ChesusRice said:

Becuase our medicine is profit driven not outcome driven. I myself having also worked in the medical field can tell you first hand. Doctors order tests for 3 reasons.
1 cover their ass
2 Kick backs from lab
3 profit from reading tests both for them and for the organization they work for

I got burnt out really quick doing blood draws on terminally ill people. I felt really bad waking a woman up at 3 in the morning to do a blood draw just so the doctor could make 70 bucks confiriming
Yep she is dying

And the FDA isnt the enemy
Without the FDA companys like Lotus light would be able to sell "horny goat weed" as medicine and people would be taking echinacea to cure liver cancer

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I smell bullshit, if you had actually worked in the medical field you would know it's illegal for labs to give kickbacks, a licensed professional wouldn't risk this, that's just stupid. The doctor's who read the tests are almost never the same as the doctor who ordered the test.

the FDA doesn't regulate most things on the shelf at GNC, if they sell me something that makes a poodle head grow out of my ass I sue and they go bankrupt and people learn not to take things without checking a little better.

ginwilly said:

of course you agree with Obamacare abandon, I haven't see you disagree with anything Obama yet.

why do you agree with it, what's your favorite part? the increased tax on rolling walkers or taking over student loans? how about the part that says DOS based emars MUST use a complex password of NAAAAAA (no deviating from this either because it's spelled out like this). How about the part that no longer lets me use my FSA on over the counter expenditures like aspirin or alka-seltzer without a prescription?

you have no clue how bad this bill is because you are only going by what you want to be in it and what your favorite politician who has not read it yet told you was in it. This does nothing that Obama promised while campaigning.

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As long as Romney doesn't get elected, I'll keep defending that motherfucker too.

ginwilly said:

of course you agree with Obamacare abandon, I haven't see you disagree with anything Obama yet.

why do you agree with it, what's your favorite part? the increased tax on rolling walkers or taking over student loans? how about the part that says DOS based emars MUST use a complex password of NAAAAAA (no deviating from this either because it's spelled out like this). How about the part that no longer lets me use my FSA on over the counter expenditures like aspirin or alka-seltzer without a prescription?

you have no clue how bad this bill is because you are only going by what you want to be in it and what your favorite politician who has not read it yet told you was in it. This does nothing that Obama promised while campaigning.

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It has only been online for more than 2 years
Must suck to be too lazy that you depend on talking heads from the tea party to tell you whats in it
Start here
http://www.healthcare.gov/

Mr Neutron said:

Deregulation and encouraging competition. Allow insurance coverage across state lines. Offer affordable, catastrophic care for those of us who don't live to be sick. Start weaning people off of Medicare, Medicaid and SS. Take it back to the system it once was, where people would pay for healthcare, out of pocket. If they couldn't afford that, there were church and private charities that were much more efficient than Uncle Sam at looking after the indigent. Insurance was for catastrophic care. In case you had an accident or came down with a debilitating disease.
Healthcare decisions should be between the patient and the caregiver, not the patient, caregiver and the insurance company/government. The more local the control is, the better. The government that governs least, governs best.

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How the fuck deprave get mad when he agrees with this in red especially and then I ask him about it..WTF

londonfog said:

sounds like the problem is health services costing too much ?? and this systems does not tackle the problem of over-cost..is that the jest of what you are saying ???

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Yup! And I am saying it is the corruption of the system that has made it cost so much. So, adding more of the system to the equation is not the answer.

Harrekin said:

One question noone has addressed yet...

How does the US Govt spend more on healthcare per capita than most countries with Universal Healthcare?

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Corruption and waste from no accountability.