Even Paris Hilton KNOWS Eckhart Tolle

skunkushybrid

New Member
While we are alive the mind is constantly working. We may fool ourselves into believing we are not thinking but OURSELVES will always have thought.

Yes, in a way it was a trick question... although it makes perfect sense. The very thought that we have entered some type of none-thought state is of course thought in itself.

Maybe meditation gets to the essence of thought, the rawness of it. So that we are again at our most basic. Like a new born baby. This would be impossible as our minds have grown and learned too much.

When we read about meditation we LEARN that it frees us of the need to think. Yet this is not the case, the truth is that it places you on a level of LESSER thought.
 

preoQpydDlusion

Well-Known Member
i would assume u wouldnt have the gall to preach something u havent experienced so im going to assume u simply havent reached what we are talking about. the way my mind works, something is or isnt, no in-between involved. i dont have the ability to see the grey area so when u say that i am mistakenly experiencing a lesser thought rather than the absence of, i find it rather questionable.
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
No, I have reached it... but it is a lie.

I will always be MYSELF. I may be able to hide from ME, pretend that I am not there... but there, I will always BE.

MYSELF ME BE.

All WE can do is try and change the way we behave in the world. try and be better people. Sometimes you need to clear your head of most thoughts, but to imagine you are clearing your mind of all thought is a thought in itself.

My point is only that, although meditation is an excellent way to keep your mind healthy, it is a trick when we believe we have achieved none-thought. A trick of our own minds.

The mind/psyche is in 2 parts. The conscious that sleeps, and the subconscious that does not. We are both of these minds at the same time, yet we use our subconscious constantly. When you talk of meditating while you're awake you're talking of becoming more in tune with your subconscious mind. Yet your subconscious mind is a myriad of thought, more so than the conscious mind. This is where thoughts have yet to develop, or mature to the point they actually become thoughts, a confusing place that meditation helps calm.

Also we could never let go of our conscious minds, the place where thoughts are realised. We need it to move our bodies, to realise the thoughts that mature in our subconscious.

Meditation is merely a trick. You tell yourself that meditation is going to work a certain way, and it does.

Most of the time the way we're feeling is down to chemicals being released from neurotransmitters in the brain. This is why some people get angry quicker than others... you ever felt that feeling when you're really angry, like your whole body and mind are being flooded with something? The mind has opened the valve.

The future for us should be to somehow learn how to control these transmitters. Imagine being able to give yourself an XTC dose just by controlling these transmitters... The power is within us somewhere.
 

preoQpydDlusion

Well-Known Member
Meditation is merely a trick. You tell yourself that meditation is going to work a certain way, and it does.
bull. i didnt even kno what i was doing first time around. i just got sick of all the harmful stuff flying thru my head and i wanted to see if i could make it stop. i pretty much thought meditation was cross-legged levitation back then. i laid down and felt the pressure of my body on my bed or the ground. thats all it was, i gave up thinking about shit.

if u want to argue the idea of completely stopping cerebral activity ur missing the point; the mind and the brain are two separate things entirely. and while i may have mislead u by saying "thought" i really have only meant to say "inner monologue" as in all these fucking voices in my head. from what i understand everybody hears voices, just some people dont notice them as much.

when i meditate i stop talking to myself and i wait for all the noise in my head to stop. isnt that what everybody else does? how is that an illusion?
 

johnny1234

Well-Known Member
I understand exactly what you are saying skunkushy


Essentially, no one can convince you that the mind is secondary to ‘you’ because you are trying to understand it on the level of mind. I must stress it is beyond mind. So how can I prove that its not all a hoax? Well basically, I can’t, just like you can’t truly prove that it is. Just like Sartre can’t prove that we are all radically free and fraud that we wana shag our mums.

But I’ll still try to clear up any doubts u may have.
To truly reach enlightenment. You are not just killing all thoughts so that there is a void. You are observing your thoughts. But how can u observe your thoughts? Who is doing the observing? You! the true sense of you.

Ur statement ‘meditation is a trick’ is perfectly valid in the case of someone who sits there, concentrates on their breath for a while and ends up feeling relaxed and peaceful or even joyful. But, when one is truly and deeply detached from their mind, they are enlightened, and the feeling is INFINITELY deeper, more real and beyond the feeling of endorphins pumping into your blood.

There have also been cases where temporary enlightenment has been reached without intention. This happens when immense losses occur. For example, there was a case where a mother’s child died. At the point of death, the mother felt this immense, unexplainable feeling of life, joy, awakeness etc. and then her mind kicked back in and she was deeply sad. This enlightenment has occurred because there has been a void created in her life. Something which was there, and part of her mind, was suddenly gone.

Now u can ignore all this and say that meditating is all just a trick and that the mother had some sort of thing going on with the chemicals in her brain. But, in my opinion; if u had had a mere GLIMPSE of there feeling i'm talking about, you may be more inclined to agree with we we talking about. or at least realize it as a possibility.

remember, your mind hates hearing any of this because, if it were true, it would mean that everything you take to be your self is secondary to this true 'you'.
 

johnny1234

Well-Known Member
The absence of thought is death.
perhaps the absence of thought is life in its true form?
people think that 'life' is the opposite of 'death' but really 'birth' is the opposite of 'death'. life is eternal, and has no opposite.

but that's taking it all one step further. i don't think that statement would be able to cleared up until we experience death.
 

Garden Knowm

The Love Doctor
Wow johnny! You should check out this book, autobiography of a yogi, it will probably become your best friend...

Btw- very nice post... Great yo wake up first thing in the morning and see something so beautiful.

Lovelovelove
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
if u want to argue the idea of completely stopping cerebral activity ur missing the point; the mind and the brain are two separate things entirely. and while i may have mislead u by saying "thought" i really have only meant to say "inner monologue" as in all these fucking voices in my head. from what i understand everybody hears voices, just some people dont notice them as much.
No, as far as I'm aware I do not hear voices. I did once, back when i was on stimulants for long periods at a time. Psychosis. The voices are dangerous, I have a friend that not only hears the voices in his head but also hears them on the radio and tv too. He believes he is Jesus Christ, that the world revolves around him. This is his world not ours.
 

johnny1234

Well-Known Member
No, as far as I'm aware I do not hear voices. I did once, back when i was on stimulants for long periods at a time. Psychosis. The voices are dangerous, I have a friend that not only hears the voices in his head but also hears them on the radio and tv too. He believes he is Jesus Christ, that the world revolves around him. This is his world not ours.
alright skunky, how about some words from the man himself:

How easy it is for people to become trapped in their conceptual prisons.

The human mind, in its desire to know, understand, and control, mistakes its opinions and viewpoints for the truth. It says: this is how it is. You have to be larger than thought to realize that however you interpret "your life" or someone else's life or behavior, however you judge any situation, it is no more than a view point, one of many possible perspectives. It is no more that a bundle of thoughts. But reality is one unified whole, in which all things are interwoven, were nothing exists in and by itself. Thinking fragments reality - it cuts it up into conceptual bits and pieces.

The thinking mind is a useful and powerful tool, but it is also very limiting when it takes over your life completely, when you don't realize that it is only a small aspect of the consciousness that you are. - Eckhart Tolle
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
The thinking mind is unlimited in it's power. it is this that lets us sit cross-legged, scratch our heads, humours us when we believe we are something separate from it.

It is only limiting when you allow your thoughts to be externally CONTROLLED. The media (which is everywhere) is constantly spewing out semi-subliminal thoughts that are soaked up by our minds. It can get dangerous when these thoughts become real, or thoughts you believe were created by yourself become your ONLY thoughts.

Admittedly we often need to do some form of meditation to help re-find the true SELF from time to time, filter out the bullshit...

We ARE thought. We can not be separated from it except in death. You can of course always believe this while you are alive (this is a generalisation) but belief and TRUTH are often not the same thing.
 

johnny1234

Well-Known Member
If you are thought, then who is in control? You’re brain? How does you’re brain work? Chemicals, electric pulses, neurons n all that jazz. So you are essentially saying that you’re just a product of all that. Then you die and there’s nothing. So when you THINK “I am unhappy” then that is you? at that point in time YOU ARE the thought, the concept of unhappiness? But it is only you if you identify with that thought, if you attach your self to that thought.

Say you will harvest in exactly one month from now. When you PICTURE yourself at harvest, picking those buds, You are not the person picking them... and you are not your mind that thinks about that person picking them. You are the person that IS at that present time (1 month b4 harvest). You are your awareness.

When you lift up your arm, you’re not thinking “okay arm.. lift” when you breath in and out you are not thinking about that. But if you DIRECT YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS/SELF/BEING towards your breath or the movement of lifting your arm, then you will see (if your not judging with your mind) that you are not your mind.


You’re talk of external forces controlling us is consistent with what I am saying: one looks at a girl on a music video and thinks “man I wouldn’t mind giving her one.” But you are not that thought. Like you say; it is dangerous when you think you are. Because you’ll think you are unfulfilled because you can’t get the girl on TV, its painful. But if you just watch your thoughts, just allow them to happen, dis-identify with them, they will cease to be you. Then your thoughts will have no control over you. this has saved many people in prison, where they just surrender to what is, instead of thinking “I’m stuck here for life, im screwed” or “this isn’t so bad, I can just meditate. Oh wow this meditation is good, I feel so relaxed.” Instead of judging the situation, they just BE. Thus they are free of the constant nattering of their mind.

Many people (not knowing what it is) have experienced this feeling that is beyond the mind. It is in all of us, it is the true essence of existence, it is the core KNOWLEDGE that WE ARE. As soon as you try and judge it or understand it, it is pushed aside and you have become identified with your mind.
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
If you are thought, then who is in control? You’re brain? How does you’re brain work? Chemicals, electric pulses, neurons n all that jazz. So you are essentially saying that you’re just a product of all that. Then you die and there’s nothing. So when you THINK “I am unhappy” then that is you? at that point in time YOU ARE the thought, the concept of unhappiness?

This is exactly what I'm saying, yes. You said it yourself, "when you think"... All thought is you, what else could it be? Yes we are just a product of chemicals 'n' all that jazz. What else do YOU THINK you are? You honestly believe that through meditation you transcend thought? Without thought you are either unconscious or dead.


When you lift up your arm, you’re not thinking “okay arm.. lift”

This statement is so wrong. This is EXACTLY what you do. You think some other force is in control of your extremities? No, the thought is so quick that you don't even get time to remember you thought it.

You’re talk of external forces controlling us is consistent with what I am saying:

This is quite slanderous considering I'm a hard-core atheist. I have never spoken of external forces, only the power of MANKIND.
Ah! I remember now, the media. Sorry! Yes it is consisitent, although true understanding of this requires thought, not meditation. I liken meditation to deep thought.

Many people (not knowing what it is) have experienced this feeling that is beyond the mind. It is in all of us, it is the true essence of existence, it is the core KNOWLEDGE that WE ARE. As soon as you try and judge it or understand it, it is pushed aside and you have become identified with your mind.

Knowledge IS thought, the very basis of thought. The less we know the less we think. Yes an enlightenment is the discovery that within the mind we are always free. Our bodies and senses providing the only barriers to acknowledging this true freedom. We are what we think.
 

johnny1234

Well-Known Member
What else do YOU THINK you are?
I’ve just explained that, we are our consciousness, our being. The knower behind the thinker. It think that on the level of thought, but I also know that when I ‘watch’ my thoughts with my SELF.

Without thought you are either unconscious or dead.
That is a belief, not a fact. That is something you’ve come up with an opinion on through your learning and you believe it to be true. You cannot truly claim to understand human nature, the debate on the topic is never ending… do a bit of research on philosophy and you will see that for every theory for human nature, there is an opposing one. And the two are never concluded

You think some other force is in control of your extremities?
No I don’t think some other force is in control of your extremities, I think YOU are in control, and that YOU is not just chemicals in your brain. It is your BEING


Our bodies and senses providing the only barriers to acknowledging this true freedom.
Our mind is the only barrier to DEEPLY KNOW this true freedom. I’m not talking about a mental understanding I’m talking about a deep knowing, a wisdom that we ARE. People can believe that they are not their mind, they can have the thought of it in their head, or they can try and explain it in a post (like me). But to truly experience it, it is beyond the mind.

I honestly don’t think either of us will come to a conclusion here, we are both starting to go around in circles. All I can say is it’s unwise to knock concepts just because you can’t comprehend it with your mind (It is not about mental activity. It is surrender) If you have not allowed a glimpse of true BEING (which I’m sure you have at least for a split second but have instantly labelled it as thought) then you are in no position to argue its falsity.

You and I both want to argue this topic because if we were proven wrong, our beliefs and what we thought to be US is lost. Essentially we would lose a sense of self. However, this is a loss, only if you identify with your mind. If you knew that you are not your mind, you would realize that it doesn’t matter who is right or wrong because it’s all on the level of mind and ego. I should also practice what I preach and not get attached to my opinions and see them as myself but I must admit it takes practice at living in the now.

You feel that frustration from reading what i have wrote, that feeling that I am attacking you as a person or the feeling that i am so ignorant; well just look into that feeling, just sit there and allow that feeling it to be. don't judge it, don't manipulate it with your mind, don't think of something else, just watch it, stare at it and surrender to it. THAT is you, not your mind. and you will find that the frustration is no more. or, if you are identified with your mind, it will just cause more frustration...
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
You're wrong about me. I do not argue for the sake of proving myself right. I argue to discover the truth. For me it is honestly not about winning and losing.

I'm aware of the self, but the self needs thought. Even when we sleep, we are thinking. How much more of a surrender could there be than sleep? I can think of 2, unconsciousness and death.
 

johnny1234

Well-Known Member
your not about winning or loosing, I'm sorry to assume that. you must admit though. you label yourself as an atheist therefore you already have predisposed beliefs. so your not really seeking the truth you're just trying to prove your belief. just like i'm trying to prove mine.

it cannot be proved. i personally do not believe in god. but i cannot prove god does not exist. no1 can. if there was hard proof, there would be nothing to argue. no more religion etc.

I'm aware of the self, but the self needs thought.
'the self needs thought'! this statement reveals a relationship between the self and thought. that is what I've been trying to show you, there is the self, and then there is thought, which the self uses. your own words have set out what i am saying. only i believe the mind is essential to life but secondary to true existence.

death is the end of thought, but how can u know [as a truth] that it is the end of the self? you may say:'how can i prove the opposite?' i can't i just know it deep down. it is truly unexplainable and magnificent, the presence of everything. but i can't show you that, it's up to you.

like i said, we are both starting to just repeat ourselves, i vote you say your last bit and we end this with a :joint: on our separate parts of the globe

peace out, riveting discussion, not many people i know would even bother with it all and you put up a very plausible argument
Thankyou
p.s don't let that mind of yours get you down. haha just kidding
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
No, I believe that without one you cannot have the other and lead a normal life. A coma is without thought and what enlightenment do these people report? I have been unconscious, as far as I'm aware this is being without thought, and I remember nothing from it. From any time.

Without thought you could not know your self.

Yes, we are starting to go round in circles. The mind is a very powerful tool and if you ask it properly it'll let you believe anything. The truth is real, there should be no doubt in your mind. You believe you have a soul, but I know that this is merely your mind allowing you to believe this. Yet, ask yourself how strong your beliefs really are, for here you will find the truth. If there is any doubt, you must ask yourself why.

Yes, thankyou very enjoyable.

Although I used to term myself a Realist, but it seems that isn't allowed and I have to be an atheist.
 

Ethnobotanist

Well-Known Member
Skunk, I agree with most of what you're saying. I also agree with what most of what Johnny is saying. The one are where I disagree with you is in your conception of what consciousness is comprised of. Yes, in our ordinary state of consciousness, and even in non-ordinary (or extraordinary) states, there is always a sense of "self". We are products of our experiences, and everything plays into it: our active thoughts, our subconscious thoughts, our emotions, our memories, and the environment around us. However, you say that this is all that there is; anything else, where we are devoid of such a conceptual framwork, is either unconsciousness or death. I would argue otherwise, based upon my own personal experience and the experiences of some priveledged others. There is pure consciousness; something not totally unlike death or unconsciousness. In this state, there are no emotions, no active or subconscious thoughts, and no sense of "self". There are no concepts, and nothing arises in the "mind". But there is awareness, albeit, it is not active awareness. One does not realize that they are in this state, they simply "are" in this state. The realization, and the categorization and rationalization of such an experience comes afterward, when consciousness has again shifted.

I would describe it, using the most abstract concepts that I can, as "fullness in nothingness", or a "living void". "Complete stillness" might be a desciption that approaches it, if it could indeed be described. I only know that this state of mind exists because I have experienced it, in a completely sober state. And I did not use meditation to achieve this, nor was I even actively seeking it. I sort of 'fell into it', to be honest. I was thinking of philosophical concepts, particularly those relevant to living a supposedly more natural existence, akin to cynicism (with less materialism to it). Eventually, I felt my thought patterns start to change, until they became reduced to something that can be related to "fuzzy logic"; basically, logical reductivism. And eventually, I arrived at this point. I fully believe it's our original, sort of primordial state of being; I won't attempt to debate whether it was something external or internal, though I'm inclined to believe that such a state of consciousness is not possible after physical death. Though I wouldn't discount the possibility that this is what might survive, if consciousness can indeed transcend physical limitations.

If you've ever had an intense entheogenic experience on some sort of psychadelic, and experienced "ego death", that state of mind approximates what happened to me. This was prior to my using any psychadelics, but after ingesting a quarter of particular potent shrooms, I realized that I could use such a state of consciousness to describe what I experienced then. They're not the same, but they are very close. People who practice Buddhist mindfullness can also sort of relate to the experience. I fully believe that this "pure consciousness" is what is often described in various religious traditions, and is the goal of Hinduism (as "moksha", resulting in supposed liberation from samsara), Buddhism (as "enlightenment", resulting in nirvana [nibbana]), and union with the Monad in Gnosticism (resulting in gnosis). It could also have been the ultimate goal of many ancient Stoics, Platonists, and Neo-Platonists. For me, it's entirely too coincidental for so many religions and philosophies to describe a nearly identical state, entheogens at "heroic doses" to induce such a state, and for me to experience such a state myself, to NOT exist. I just think it's a rare state, since we are so hard-wired into our egos and our conceptual reality.

And to think, I just sort of "stumbled" upon it, while if it is indeed one and the same, many people spend their entire lives seeking it. My view of reality was completely different for quite a long time afterwards, as if I was experiencing everything, but not nearly as affected by it. I sort of sacrificed this state of mind for booze, sex with gorgeous women, and the like. In other words, I gave into my desires, rather than rising above and controlling them, partaking but not surrendering. And my ego re-established itself almost completely. I do, still, however, have a lingering innate sense of the division between percepts and concepts, and I'm grateful for that. I doubt I'll ever achieve anything like that again under my own power, but it would definately be worth it to look into the altered states that psychadelics provide much more closely.

So yes, we are products of firing neurons and "all that jazz". Maybe there are no external forces in the world, and we are just in our own heads, interracting with each other in a conceptual consensus reality of our own creation. But everything we are is rooted in our own experience, and we cannot relate our experiences without dilluting them in some way so someone else understands it according to their own experiences. Just because you haven't experienced it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The converse of that statement is also true. But with all of the amazing things the mind is capable of, there has to more to the world than simply what we get with our sensory organs and our ordinary consciousness. And if there is a God, and I'm not admitting such a thing, being the pragmatist and skeptic I am, I suspect it is pure consciousness. Because I suspect that's what we "are".

~Will :dunce:
 
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