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Electricity

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watsupbud

Active Member
Ok guys, i need help with electricity. It seems like everything is intact correcty, but except for the ground. This storage room has its own power but for some reason i do not see the ground wire connected. Is it possible if i connnected the ground wire to the main circuit panel? or do i need to get my own grounding rod and connect it? any suggestions?

IMAG0039.jpgIMAG0045.jpg
 
ResidualFreedom

ResidualFreedom

Active Member
fabfun said:
u have a ground wire already
Click to expand...
No... actually he doesn't....

What he has there is two phases.. each black wire represents a phase.. the one with white tape on it is the neutral wire.. He still will need a ground wire..

Now what you are doing here has a VERY HIGH potential for fire if you do not do ONE MAJOR THING.... please read carefully...

You must run your ground cable to either the ground in your main house panel, or as you will notice, your main ground wire is connected at one to your panel, and at the other end to the town side of your water meter. You may run your ground cable there instead of opening up the panel.. remember not just any water pipe, the town side of your water meter, that way you are connected to a pipe that goes directly into the ground. If you have your main ground going to a ground rod due to plastic water piping from the city, then connect to the ground rod where the main ground is connected..

NOW THE IMPORTANT INFORMATION.... When you run a panel off another panel like here... YOU MUST TAKE OUT THE NEUTRAL BONDING SCREW FROM THE NEW OR SECOND PANEL.

What is that... The neutral bonding screw connects ELECTRICALLY the neutral bar or terminal block to the casing of the panel.. There will be mounting screws that hold the neutral bar to the panel, but they will be using plastic gromets or plastic pieces to make sure the neutral bar does not touch the panel casing, there will be one screw (typically green) that not only goes through the neutral terminal block, but it threads into the panel metal casing, making the neutral bar and the case electrically connected...

So why do i have to remove it from the second panel.....
You must do this because of what is called a ground loop. The connection between neutral and ground can only be made at one point in your house.. if it is made in two different places that will create a difference in potential and basically, that is bad, and will cause a fire eventually...

So what do you have to do...

turn off the breaker in your main panel that powers your pony panel, that is the term if you want to do more research. now your 2nd panel is dead...

run a ground wire, it can be bare copper and it does NOT have to be the same size as the neutral or the phase wires, it can be smaller. Take the ground wire to the main ground for your house.. and bolt it on there with a clamp.. you can put both grounds under the same lug if they will fit..

now with the panel dead, inspect the neutral bar, find out which screw bonds the neutral bar to the panel... and remove it.. now the neutral bar should still be firmly held in place, it is just not bonded to the panel.

connect your ground wire in your panel casing, either pick up a lug and use the green screw to hold the lug to the panel..

close your panel, and turn the main breaker back on... There you go.. you basically took the neutral from the second panel and isolated it from the ground (casing) of the second panel.

any questions just shoot...

Been off here for a few months, glad to be back!
 
W

watsupbud

Active Member
ResidualFreedom said:
No... actually he doesn't....

What he has there is two phases.. each black wire represents a phase.. the one with white tape on it is the neutral wire.. He still will need a ground wire..

Now what you are doing here has a VERY HIGH potential for fire if you do not do ONE MAJOR THING.... please read carefully...

You must run your ground cable to either the ground in your main house panel, or as you will notice, your main ground wire is connected at one to your panel, and at the other end to the town side of your water meter. You may run your ground cable there instead of opening up the panel.. remember not just any water pipe, the town side of your water meter, that way you are connected to a pipe that goes directly into the ground. If you have your main ground going to a ground rod due to plastic water piping from the city, then connect to the ground rod where the main ground is connected..

NOW THE IMPORTANT INFORMATION.... When you run a panel off another panel like here... YOU MUST TAKE OUT THE NEUTRAL BONDING SCREW FROM THE NEW OR SECOND PANEL.

What is that... The neutral bonding screw connects ELECTRICALLY the neutral bar or terminal block to the casing of the panel.. There will be mounting screws that hold the neutral bar to the panel, but they will be using plastic gromets or plastic pieces to make sure the neutral bar does not touch the panel casing, there will be one screw (typically green) that not only goes through the neutral terminal block, but it threads into the panel metal casing, making the neutral bar and the case electrically connected...

So why do i have to remove it from the second panel.....
You must do this because of what is called a ground loop. The connection between neutral and ground can only be made at one point in your house.. if it is made in two different places that will create a difference in potential and basically, that is bad, and will cause a fire eventually...

So what do you have to do...

turn off the breaker in your main panel that powers your pony panel, that is the term if you want to do more research. now your 2nd panel is dead...

run a ground wire, it can be bare copper and it does NOT have to be the same size as the neutral or the phase wires, it can be smaller. Take the ground wire to the main ground for your house.. and bolt it on there with a clamp.. you can put both grounds under the same lug if they will fit..

now with the panel dead, inspect the neutral bar, find out which screw bonds the neutral bar to the panel... and remove it.. now the neutral bar should still be firmly held in place, it is just not bonded to the panel.

connect your ground wire in your panel casing, either pick up a lug and use the green screw to hold the lug to the panel..

close your panel, and turn the main breaker back on... There you go.. you basically took the neutral from the second panel and isolated it from the ground (casing) of the second panel.

any questions just shoot...

Been off here for a few months, glad to be back!
Click to expand...

This 2nd panel as pictured above has been tapped and bypassed from the main breaker and is in the same building as the main breaker which is legal. I know I know this is the risk of getting caught but my friend wants to do a grow and does not care. (so please keep your comments to urself about getting caught and etc) i know little about stolen electricity. just some of the basics. This use to be his brothers mini car chop that he is no longer using that was using the illegal panel for welding. As i was inspecting the 2nd panel which is illegal, i noticed it is missing a ground. Does this 2nd panel that is illegal need grounding? If so can he connect the 2nd panel ground which is in the picture and missing the ground, to the main panel ground which is already grounded? or does it need its own grounding? I just dont want him burning his house down....Thanks
 
W

watsupbud

Active Member
This 2nd panel as pictured above has been tapped and bypassed from the main breaker and is in the same building as the main breaker which is legal. I know I know this is the risk of getting caught but my friend wants to do a grow and does not care. (so please keep your comments to urself about getting caught and etc) i know little about stolen electricity. just some of the basics. This use to be his brothers mini car chop that he is no longer using that was using the illegal panel for welding. As i was inspecting the 2nd panel which is illegal, i noticed it is missing a ground. Does this 2nd panel that is illegal need grounding? If so can he connect the 2nd panel ground which is in the picture and missing the ground, to the main panel ground which is already grounded? or does it need its own grounding? I just dont want him burning his house down....Thanks
 
W

watsupbud

Active Member
There is nothing in use. the breakers have nothing connected to it so wtf are u talkin about. it is not connected yet...like i said keep ur comments to urself if u cant answer. Thanks

stephaniesloan said:
WTF is that contraption. is that the consumer units you use in the usa.

do you have many electrical fires ?
Click to expand...
 
GeeTee

GeeTee

Well-Known Member
you can either connect a ground to the green screw or you can ground it to the bar on the opposite side of the nuetral bar. the ground bar is the bar that looks like the bar with the neutral in it except on the opposite side of the box
 
W

watsupbud

Active Member
GeeTee said:
you can either connect a ground to the green screw or you can ground it to the bar on the opposite side of the nuetral bar. the ground bar is the bar that looks like the bar with the neutral in it except on the opposite side of the box
Click to expand...
If i wanted to connect it to the green screw, from the green screw where would it connect to? a grounding rod? the main breaker, or get its own grounding rod? as you know this is an illegal tapp in the same building. If it was you how would do the connect, please be specific. Also i dont tink the grounding wire size matter when grounding(i can use copper?) (correct me if im wrong) i know the other wires do when doing connections. Thanks in advance
 
GeeTee

GeeTee

Well-Known Member
watsupbud said:
If i wanted to connect it to the green screw, from the green screw where would it connect to? a grounding rod? the main breaker, or get its own grounding rod? as you know this is an illegal tapp in the same building. If it was you how would do the connect, please be specific. Also i dont tink the grounding wire size matter when grounding(i can use copper?) (correct me if im wrong) i know the other wires do when doing connections. Thanks in advance
Click to expand...
ive never done an illegal tap but assuming that everything is wired correctly then you should be able to carry a ground from the main panel to your sub panel with no problems. if its wired correctly then all your grounds in the building will lead to the grounding rod, and yes you should use copper.
 
W

watsupbud

Active Member
GeeTee said:
ive never done an illegal tap but assuming that everything is wired correctly then you should be able to carry a ground from the main panel to your sub panel with no problems. if its wired correctly then all your grounds in the building will lead to the grounding rod, and yes you should use copper.
Click to expand...
This is not a subpanel. This is an illegal tap. I know that in a legal subpanel the neutral/ground is diff somehow(one of them is not connected or something). Assuming that all the wires are connected correctly in the pictures, your saying i can simply connect the copper wire to the green screw from the tap to the main box? if so how sure are you?
 
GeeTee

GeeTee

Well-Known Member
you can connect grounds a few different ways in panels. some will use lugs and some use the bars or some will use ground screws depending on the size of your ground wire. but all connections share the same concept which is to provide the electricity a way to ground. im pretty sure as i am a commercial/industrial electrician and have worked on many different types of panels from 480 all the way down to 120.
 
W

watsupbud

Active Member
so the best way is to go from the green lug (illegal tap box) as pictured above to the ground in the main? is there a certain type of wire sz i need besides copper?
 
jgould

jgould

Well-Known Member
First of all when you say illegal tap are u coming from main distribution panel in building or are u coming from your utility meter outside? Your wire size looks a little small feeding that panel , i assume u are coming from main panel in building , if you are then what size breaker or fuse in main are you feeding that panel with? That determines conducter(wire) size and ground size. I would go with a #6 bond{ground} from main panel ground bar to ground bar in your panel , like mentioned before you must remove bond screw from neutral bar in your panel, it should be a different color screw on neutral bar that connects casing of panel to neutral bar. For those that dont know the ground bar sits flat on casing of panel and neutral bar is sitting on a plastic isolating pad.
A #6 ground is good for 100 amp service and a #3 ground is used for a 200 amp service. So let me know how your panel is fed with power and i will help more.
Hope this clears the air a little.
 
ResidualFreedom

ResidualFreedom

Active Member
i answered this in a private message...

but for the group... YOu must run your ground to the same ground rod that the main panel is grounded to...
 
jgould

jgould

Well-Known Member
You can run a bond from main distribution panel where he is feeding this panel from, like come on this panel has to be protected somehow, does he even told us how this panel is fed or what size breaker it is protected at.
 
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