Do You Support The "Occupy"Protests?

Do you support the global "Occupy" protests?


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Brick Top

New Member
Brick, everything mame posts is from the krugman manifesto. I hope that explains things better.
I did notice the heavy John Maynard Keynes influence in everything he posted about economics and Krugman just regurgitates the discredited Keynes economic insanity.

I loved how one article Paul Krugman wrote that was published in the opinion section of the NY Times began ..... "The greatness of Keynes." That pretty much sums up Paul Krugman's slavish devotion to the discredited Keynes. Krugman has his tongue so far up Keynes dead ass that he could tickle Keynes tonsils.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Keynesianism has not been discredited; If anything it's been vindicated as this recession has gone on. Interest rates, for example, have done exactly as the keynesian models have fortold - specifically IS-LM.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
BTW, a Keynesian won the Nobel Prize again...

The only idiots even teaching Austrian economics are the Freshwater economists who are mocked in literally every acedemic circle. MIT, Berkeley, Princeton... Kind of hard to argue against that kind of prestige. But decades of research mean nothing, right? Is the data biased?
 

Brick Top

New Member
Keynesianism has not been discredited; If anything it's been vindicated as this recession has gone on. Interest rates, for example, have done exactly as the keynesian models have fortold - specifically IS-LM.
Interesting. Information on how Keynesian economics have been soundly discredited can be easily found all over the net. As for the Keynesian policies of Obama during the current economic crisis, I guess you would claim that the only reason they failed to stimulate the economy, as Keynesian theory claims they would, is because the boondoggle pork-barrel stimulus funding was not large enough and if about another trillion dollars had been wasted the economy would be going great guns by now.

Only the Kool-Aid drinking members of The Cult of Keynes, with it's current Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler, Paul Krugman, as head cheerleader, will continue to defend failed Keynesian economics.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Interesting. Information on how Keynesian economics have been soundly discredited can be easily found all over the net. As for the Keynesian policies of Obama during the current economic crisis, I guess you would claim that the only reason they failed to stimulate the economy, as Keynesian theory claims they would, is because the boondoggle pork-barrel stimulus funding was not large enough and if about another trillion dollars had been wasted the economy would be going great guns by now.

Only the Kool-Aid drinking members of The Cult of Keynes, with it's current Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler, Paul Krugman, as head cheerleader, will continue to defend failed Keynesian economics.
Keynesian theory pointed towards the stimulus being too small from the VERY BEGINNING. The Keynesians ALWAYS said the stimulus would need to be 1.2-1.5 Trillion dollars and the Obama administration - the centrist administration - went with a $800 billion package because Republican opposition based on - you guessed it - faulty interest rate predictions. The output gap at the beginning of the crisis was 2 TRILLION dollars, the point of stimulus is to close that gap... $800 billion with multipliers included did NOT fill that gap. Of course the economy has not reached full employment...

Meanwhile IS-LM has stood the ultimate test, and is the poster child of keynesian success. Until IS-LM is discredited (missed that chance already, as the bond vigilantes are no where to be found) than your "keynesianism has been discredited" argument falls on deaf ears. The anti-keynesians were sooooooo sure interest rates would spike as a result of a large stimulus... Where they correct? Of course not, any sophmore economics student could have told you that - through understanding IS-LM - but the Very Serious People in the Republican party obviously do not understand such a basic model. My suggestion to you(and them)? Re-open your economics 101 textbook, go to section on IS-LM and fucking read.... Then compare IS-LM to reality... It's EXACTLY as the Keynesians predicted. Interest rates will remain low as long as we remain in a liquidity trap. end of story.
 

Brick Top

New Member
The Keynesian Dead End

Spending our way to prosperity is going out of style.

Today's G-20 meeting has been advertised as a showdown between the U.S. and Europe over more spending "stimulus," and so it is. But the larger story is the end of the neo-Keynesian economic moment, and perhaps the start of a healthier policy turn.
For going on three years, the developed world's economic policy has been dominated by the revival of the old idea that vast amounts of public spending could prevent deflation, cure a recession, and ignite a new era of government-led prosperity. It hasn't turned out that way.



Now the political and fiscal bills are coming due even as the U.S. and European economies are merely muddling along. The Europeans have had enough and want to swear off the sauce, while the Obama Administration wants to keep running a bar tab. So this would seem to be a good time to examine recent policy history and assess the results.
***

Like many bad ideas, the current Keynesian revival began under George W. Bush. Larry Summers, then a private economist, told Congress that a "timely, targeted and temporary" spending program of $150 billion was urgently needed to boost consumer "demand." Democrats who had retaken Congress adopted the idea?they love an excuse to spend?and the politically tapped-out Mr. Bush went along with $168 billion in spending and one-time tax rebates.
The cash did produce a statistical blip in GDP growth in mid-2008, but it didn't stop the financial panic and second phase of recession. So enter Stimulus II, with Mr. Summers again leading the intellectual charge, this time as President Obama's adviser and this time suggesting upwards of $500 billion. When Congress was done two months later, in February 2009, the amount was $862 billion. A pair of White House economists famously promised that this spending would keep the unemployment rate below 8%.


Seventeen months later, and despite historically easy monetary policy for that entire period, the jobless rate is still 9.7%. Yesterday, the Bureau of Economic Analysis once again reduced the GDP estimate for first quarter growth, this time to 2.7%, while economic indicators in the second quarter have been mediocre. As the nearby table shows, this is a far cry from the snappy recovery that typically follows a steep recession, most recently in 1983-84 after the Reagan tax cuts.
The response at the White House and among Congressional leaders has been . . . Stimulus III. While talking about the need for "fiscal discipline" some time in the future, President Obama wants more spending today to again boost "demand." Thirty months after Mr. Summers won his first victory, we are back at the same policy stand.
The difference this time is that the Keynesian political consensus is cracking up. In Europe, the bond vigilantes have pulled the credit cards of Greece, Portugal and Spain, with Britain and Italy in their sights. Policy makers are now making a 180-degree turn from their own stimulus blowouts to cut spending and raise taxes. The austerity budget offered this month by the new British government is typical of Europe's new consensus.
To put it another way, Germany's Angela Merkel has won the bet she made in early 2009 by keeping her country's stimulus far more modest. We suspect Mr. Obama will find a political stonewall this weekend in Toronto when he pleads with his fellow leaders to join him again for a spending spree.
Meanwhile, in Congress, even many Democrats are revolting against Stimulus III. The original White House package of jobless benefits and aid to the states had to be watered down several times, and the latest version failed again in the Senate late this week. (See below.) Mr. Obama is having his credit card pulled too?not by the bond markets, but by a voting public that sees the troubles in Europe and is telling pollsters that it doesn't want a Grecian bath.
***

The larger lesson here is about policy. The original sin?and it was nearly global?was to revive the Keynesian economic model that had last cracked up in the 1970s, while forgetting the lessons of the long prosperity from 1982 through 2007. The Reagan and Clinton-Gingrich booms were fostered by a policy environment for most of that era of lower taxes, spending restraint and sound money. The spending restraint began to end in the late 1990s, sound money vanished earlier this decade, and now Democrats are promising a series of enormous tax increases.
Notice that we aren't saying that spending restraint alone is a miracle economic cure. The spending cuts now in fashion in Europe are essential, but cuts by themselves won't balance annual deficits reaching 10% of GDP. That requires new revenues from faster growth, and there's a danger that the tax increases now sweeping Europe will dampen growth further.
President Obama's tragic mistake was to blow out the U.S. federal balance sheet on spending that has produced little bang for the buck. The fantastical Keynesian notion (the "multiplier") that $1 of spending produces $1.50 in growth was long ago demolished by Harvard's Robert Barro, among others. That $1 in spending has to come from somewhere, which means in taxes or borrowing from productive parts of the private economy. Given that so much of the U.S. stimulus went for transfer payments such as Medicaid and unemployment insurance, the "multiplier" has almost certainly been negative.
With the economy in recession in 2008 and 2009, we argued that some stimulus was justified and an increase in the deficit was understandable and inevitable. However, we also argued that permanent tax cuts aimed at marginal individual and corporate tax rates would have done far more to revive animal spirits, and in our view would have led to a far more robust recovery.
***

What the world has now reached instead is a Keynesian dead end. We are told to let Congress continue to spend and borrow until the precise moment when Mr. Summers and Mark Zandi and the other architects of our current policy say it is time to raise taxes to reduce the huge deficits and debt that their spending has produced. Meanwhile, individuals and businesses are supposed to be unaffected by the prospect of future tax increases, higher interest rates, and more government control over nearly every area of the economy. Even the CEOs of the Business Roundtable now see the damage this is doing.
A better economic policy will have to await a new Congress, which we hope at a minimum can prevent punishing tax increases. But for now the good news is that voters and markets are telling politicians to stop doing what hasn't worked.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703615104575328981319857618.html

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In the Long Run, Keynesian Economics is Dead

June 29th, 2010 · No Comments

The teachings of John Maynard Keynes, the darling of the tax and spend left, are fast becoming passe in Britain reports Matthew Lynn of Bloomberg.com (emphasis mine):​
The U.K. has produced notable economists over the years, but John Maynard Keynes, the guru of government intervention, was one of truly global significance.
So it may be fitting that the U.K. will also become the deathbed of Keynesian economics.
Britain has been following the mainstream prescriptions of his followers more than any developed nation. It has cut interest rates, pumped up government spending, printed money like crazy, and nationalized almost half the banking industry.
Short of digging Karl Marx out of his London grave, and putting him in charge, it is hard to see how the state could get more involved in the economy.
The results will be dire. The economy is flat on its back, unemployment is rising, the pound is sinking, and the bond markets are bracketing the country with Greece and Portugal in the category marked “bankruptcy imminent.” At some point soon, even the most loyal disciples of Keynes will have to admit defeat, and accept that a radical change of direction is needed.
Lynn says that recent dispute between economists has brought the issue to the forefront (emphasis mine):
On Feb. 14, a group that included the former Bank of England policy makers Tim Besley, Howard Davies, Charles Goodhart and John Vickers published a letter to the Sunday Times calling on the government of Prime Minister Gordon Brown to control the ballooning deficit. If it didn’t, the stability of the economic recovery would be threatened, and there would be a run on the pound, they warned.
That brought a stinging response from the Keynesians, who are urging the U.K. to spend its way out of recession. Nobel laureates Joseph Stiglitz and Robert Solow were among the signatories to letters written by a group of 67 [Keynesian] economists insisting that deficit spending was the only way to salvage the economy.
And here’s the Telegraph’s Jeremy Warner skewering Obama’s economic homunculus, Paul Krugman:
Mr Obama’s cheerleader-in-chief in arguing the case for continued international deficit spending is the American economist Paul Krugman.
This hyperactive Nobel prize winner has achieved almost celebrity status for his extreme neo-Keynesian views. Yet his frequent polemics on the supposed merits of “let rip” public spending long since ceased to be based on objective analysis, and are instead argued as a matter of almost ideological conviction.
He’s as much a fundamentalist as the “deficit hawks” he mocks.
But it’s not only the Brits who are seeing the light. From Jim Hoft of Gateway-Pundit, here’s what German Chancellor Angela Merkel said last Friday at the G-20 summit in Toronto:
We need growth that doesn’t rely on debt but is based on real grounds. The world needs a new architecture for the financial markets and me and the EU will advertise for that very intensively.
Now more than ever, with the world on the brink of financial collapse, it’s necessary for leaders like President Obama to escape their comfort zones and embrace ideas that they would not have embraced in cushier times.
That takes guts. Let’s see who has them.


http://blog.pappastax.com/index.php/2010/06/29/in-the-long-run-keynesian-economics-is-dead/

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The Long-Deserved Death Of Keynesian Economics

by Dave Price on August 9, 2010
in Politics

Tim Cavanaugh has a devastating cite from just-retired Obama economic adviser Christina Romer:
The generally precise Romer spells out the difference for us: Using this approach, the estimated multiplier for monetary policy is 0.823 and the estimated multiplier for fiscal policy is -0.233.
You don’t say. Gee, that would have been nice to know a few trillion dollars ago.
Democrat Party water-carriers like Paul Krugman love Keynesian economics, with its assumed large fiscal multiplier, because it meshes so perfectly with leftism’s general preferences: more government, bigger government, more public-sector employees, higher pay for those employees — and, naturally, higher taxes to go with all that. Their continued insistence we need to spend (and tax!) more, more, more even as unemployment goes higher and deficits mushroomm is growing ever less credible with each additional “unexpected” signal of economic failure.
If there’s one positive to come out of the Great Recession, it should be the end of Keynesian economics as a serious policy choice. The notion you can grow the economy via North Korea-style command economics should have been long-dead even before Romer’s 1992 paper, but Obama’s miserable failure may finally drive a stake through this productivity-sucking, economy-killing meme.
Let me put this simply — and contradict a too-widely-held assumption of macroeconomics:
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AGGREGATE DEMAND.
Government spending is not demand, it is command spending. To “aggregate” it with private sector demand is like counting your dog’s ringworm as a “pet” on a census form, at least for purposes of stimulating the economy. It does not follow the same rules as private sector spending, as it is always seized and distributed according to law/fiat by bureaucrats indifferent to costs and benefits, not exchanged consensually between self-interested private parties seeking to maximize their utility. That’s why Keynesianism is “unexpectedly” falling flat on its face before our eyes: it relies on a fallacious aggregation.
(Now, generally about this time someone on the left perks up and says “But… roads!” Yes, we need roads (but tend to also get Bridges To Nowhere), just as we need regulation, laws, etc. My point is not that all government spending is wasteful, just that government is 1) not very good at allocating resources to what is actually useful versus wasteful/cronyist/populist, and 2) is spending far more than it should, esp. given #1. Optimal government spending levels (i.e. those associated with highest levels of economic growth) appear to be something between 20% and 30% of GDP, whereas in the U.S. those levels are now exceeding 40%.)



http://deanesmay.com/2010/08/09/the-long-deserved-death-of-keynesian-economics/
 

Brick Top

New Member
better go put on fox news so you can watch megyn kelly sneer just perfectly at whatever news items don't correspond with the agenda they push.
Why would I want to do that? I hardly watch any televised news broadcasts, from any channel/source. I do like to begin my day watching CSPAN's Washington Journal, but after that I read the news from a number of different sources.
 

Brick Top

New Member
that "boondoggle" saved me a ton of money.
How much money did you save on the Solyndra debacle? How much did the $529 million loan that went to build electric cars in Finland, not in the U.S. even though the funds were part of Obama's stimulus package, that Vice President Joe Biden claimed was a bright new path to thousands of American jobs, save you? Did you save a great deal from the roughly $5 billion home weatherization program that has been found to be rife with waste and fraud? How about these, did you save a ton thanks to them, $762,372 to create “Dance Draw” interactive dance software, $1.9 million for international ant research, $1.8 million for a road project that is threatening a pastor’s home, $308 million for a joint clean energy venture with…BP, $89,298 to replace a new sidewalk that leads to a ditch in Boynton, OK, $200,000 to help Siberian communities lobby Russian policy makers, $760,000 to Georgia Tech to study improvised music, $700,000 to study why monkeys respond negatively to inequity, $193,956 to study voter perceptions of the economic stimulus, $456,663 to study the circulation of Neptune’s atmosphere and of course the oh so important and much needed $363,760 to help NIH promote the positive impacts of stimulus projects?

That is Keynesian economics at it's finest. The government wastes massive amounts of taxpayer dollars on worthless projects that bring little, if any, return, and hopes the governmental waste will stimulate the economy.

Thanks to all that you must be rolling in the dough now. But I am sure that you fully believe all that, and much more, needed to be wasted and that it sure went a long way to throw the economy into high gear!








 

PeachOibleBoiblePeach#1

Well-Known Member
I Don't think that "Obama",,,Knew the company was going to Finland,,,I think a "Free Businness",,,Got a "Grant",,,from the "Government",,,and did what they do best "Take advantage of what they have",,,In there own self interest's,,,with no regard to anyone else,,,If anything they felt they are the needey and got greedy!....I agree with helping people that need help,,,not conmpanie's that need none,,,It's kinnda Like all the Oil tax break's back in the day...Nothing really new,,,Except your trying to make a "mountain" outta "Mole hill"....to get rid of "The Evil Socialist".....
 

mame

Well-Known Member
How much money did you save on the Solyndra debacle? How much did the $529 million loan that went to build electric cars in Finland, not in the U.S. even though the funds were part of Obama's stimulus package, that Vice President Joe Biden claimed was a bright new path to thousands of American jobs, save you? Did you save a great deal from the roughly $5 billion home weatherization program that has been found to be rife with waste and fraud? How about these, did you save a ton thanks to them, $762,372 to create “Dance Draw” interactive dance software, $1.9 million for international ant research, $1.8 million for a road project that is threatening a pastor’s home, $308 million for a joint clean energy venture with…BP, $89,298 to replace a new sidewalk that leads to a ditch in Boynton, OK, $200,000 to help Siberian communities lobby Russian policy makers, $760,000 to Georgia Tech to study improvised music, $700,000 to study why monkeys respond negatively to inequity, $193,956 to study voter perceptions of the economic stimulus, $456,663 to study the circulation of Neptune’s atmosphere and of course the oh so important and much needed $363,760 to help NIH promote the positive impacts of stimulus projects?

That is Keynesian economics at it's finest. The government wastes massive amounts of taxpayer dollars on worthless projects that bring little, if any, return, and hopes the governmental waste will stimulate the economy.

Thanks to all that you must be rolling in the dough now. But I am sure that you fully believe all that, and much more, needed to be wasted and that it sure went a long way to throw the economy into high gear!








By that logic, government shouldn't invest in anything... HMMM, so that means the government shouldn't have invested in GPS technology, Microchips, the internet, flame retardant materials used in firefighting, anything the NASA has made so far, etc etc... ALL of those items were in part products of government investment; Should we have not invested in any of those items? 500 million is a drop in the bucket. Companies fail all the time. You can't win them all.

Overall, I bet solyndra wasn't even 1% of the governments overall investment portfolio. Would you stop investing if 1% of your investment portfolio showed losses? Of course not. So why should the government?
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
How much money did you save on the Solyndra debacle?
didn't lose a penny.

How much did the $529 million loan that went to build electric cars in Finland, not in the U.S. even though the funds were part of Obama's stimulus package, that Vice President Joe Biden claimed was a bright new path to thousands of American jobs, save you?
cite it.

Did you save a great deal from the roughly $5 billion home weatherization program that has been found to be rife with waste and fraud?
i know people that benefitted. they save money and use less oil/gas now.

How about these, did you save a ton thanks to them, $762,372 to create “Dance Draw” interactive dance software, $1.9 million for international ant research, $1.8 million for a road project that is threatening a pastor’s home, $308 million for a joint clean energy venture with…BP, $89,298 to replace a new sidewalk that leads to a ditch in Boynton, OK, $200,000 to help Siberian communities lobby Russian policy makers, $760,000 to Georgia Tech to study improvised music, $700,000 to study why monkeys respond negatively to inequity, $193,956 to study voter perceptions of the economic stimulus, $456,663 to study the circulation of Neptune’s atmosphere and of course the oh so important and much needed $363,760 to help NIH promote the positive impacts of stimulus projects?
copy and paste again, i can tell by the #8217 and #8220 shit. you do not have any thoughts fo your own. this is all just copy and paste, uncited, stuff that a mentally handicapped wombat could regurgitate.

but to answer you, how many people went back to work building that sidewalk to a ditch? would you rather have them unemployed instead?

what about the ants? if they discover a way to eradicate a bad species or to use another species for good purposes, don't you think that might save more than $1.9 million in crop losses somewhere down the road? and people were put to work doing this research, which creates demand in the economy. OH NO!

a little actuarial type of thinking might benefit you greatly, brickstump.

Thanks to all that you must be rolling in the dough now. But I am sure that you fully believe all that, and much more, needed to be wasted and that it sure went a long way to throw the economy into high gear!
the economy is stable now. after the recession we went through, to expect much more betrays a lack of historical perspective which an old timer like you often likes to brag about having.

and for your edification, i invested my thousands of dollars of tax breaks into big fancy lights and loud fans, and while i am not rolling in the dough, i am certainly as happy as i have ever been.

you should copy and paste something else that you can't defend without further copy and pastes.
 

dukeanthony

New Member
Originally Posted by Brick Top
Did you save a great deal from the roughly $5 billion home weatherization program that has been found to be rife with waste and fraud?

Gee I remember Jobs being Created the Last time this happened.
Oh Yeah it was during Bush the First time in Office

When I used to Insulate houses paid for with tax dollars
 

Coals

Active Member
That doesn't make any sense, why would anyone raise the tax rate to 100%? what a serious answer :roll:

It's not just about closing the deficit, to me it's really become about a gaping whole in the progressive tax system that allows 25% of millionaires to pay less in taxes as a percentage of income than the median rate for those making between 40-50k a year... Does that sound fair to you? someone making 40-50k per year gets to pay ~13% effective federal tax and joe blow millionaire chilling in his huge house pays LESS than you as a percentage of income. Fair? I'll go even further, 10% of all millionaires (we're talking billionaires mostly at this point) pay 4.2% effective federal tax or less... Fair?

Your clearly not comprehending what i am saying. I was not seriously suggesting to raise the tax rate to 100%. I was trying to illustarte the SYSTEMIC problem with our monetary system. Listen to what I am saying right now: TAX RATES DO NOT MATTER. Neither does gay marriage, or abortion, or fags in the millitary or any other stupid partisan issue you can think of.

Ill say it again: TAX RATE DOES NOT MATTER.

We could cut every single government job and drop government spending to 0. Then raise taxes to 100% and the debt would rise every single second of every day. You can not re-pay a loan that you owe a person if the only way to earn more money is to borrow more money (ie a loan) from that same person.

We purchase our money from a private corporation. Does that make any sense at all? The fact that we have to buy our money befor we can earn it? The nation as a whole must buy it's money befor it goes into circulation. Every single dollar in circultation is in debted more than its value befor it even enters circultation. That is why Bernanke admitted to Ron Paul that there isn't enough money in circulation to re-pay the national debt -ever. So then Ron Paul asked Bernanke how America was ever supposed to repay the debt? Bernanke replied; "I don't know".

Untill we take control of our Monetary system back and get it working for the benefit of the nation again (like it was prior to 1913), no other issue is of any importance whatsoever. So tax me at 100% or 0% it does not matter because under our current system we are all doomed to a lifetime of debt enslavement and so are our children and our childrens children.
 

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
So tax me at 100% or 0% it does not matter because under our current system we are all doomed to a lifetime of debt enslavement and so are our children and our childrens children.
You already are... Property taxes are tithes paid to our lords and masters. If you dont own property you rent property. And the only one exempt from paying these taxes is the government.
 

dukeanthony

New Member
You already are... Property taxes are tithes paid to our lords and masters. If you dont own property you rent property. And the only one exempt from paying these taxes is the government.
And Religous Groups

Which although banned from doing so

Still somehow get involved in Politics
 
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