cloning a clone

weedyoo

weedyoo

Well-Known Member
mared juwan said:
I think this qualifies as an "advanced technique" question. Cloning is not exactly newb territory. And the difference between taking cuttings from a single mother plant and the cloning of clones is something a lot of "advanced" growers seem to disagree on. I've seen many knowledgable growers say that cloning clones degrades potency and other factors. However, in my own experience this is not true. I have a strain which I have done this for 8 generations now. Meaning I grew the original plant from seed, then I cloned that plant before flowering it and vegged its clones until they were ready to give clones and then repeated the process. EIGHT times. I am rather limited on space and keeping mothers is just not feasible. Especially when I have noticed that as I selectively clone the healthiest and fastest-rooting plants the quality has actually INCREASED from all this, rather than the other way around. I am of the opinion that my 8th generation of this strain is more potent and vigorously growing than the original plant or any generation in between. They have only gotten better instead of worse which is the opposite of what many sources claim. Even so, when I tell people this I usually get a tisk tisk response saying you're not supposed to do this. But I've never gotten anyone to fully explain to me what is bad about it.
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so here is the thing are you sayin you clone a clone for years or just a few times. after years i think you will run in to problems.

i have a single mom thats a year and a half old and have taken hundreds of clones from her
 
mared juwan

mared juwan

Well-Known Member
weedyoo said:
so here is the thing are you sayin you clone a clone for years or just a few times. after years i think you will run in to problems.

i have a single mom thats a year and a half old and have taken hundreds of clones from her
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Yes, I have heard many people say they think it will cause problems. I'm just curious as to what is the physical and biological reasons for this happening. WHY do they degrade over time. Without seeing it for myself or being able to find a scientific reason for it I still am not sure whether it is true.
 
Kingb420

Kingb420

Well-Known Member
search button = win

i was gonna ask this too, im now rooting everything (bagseed) want to step up and get some good seeds, i have a clonable clone now with a couple good shoots, i guess i will just keep on rooting..lol
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Can anyone that claims degradation will occur in successive generations of clones give clear specifically what happens to the DNA that creates this mythical problem?

Any talk of loss of vigor or other decline of a strain from asexual reproduction does not have a good understanding of genetics and botany and probably should go read more.

Of course mums can have problems, but that's an individual plant, replace her with a clone and you will be back to where you started.

If anyone doubts this, just look at some of the clone-only strains going around strong after 20-30 years for some. These have been cloned in the thousands of generations to get the ones being sold today.
 
mared juwan

mared juwan

Well-Known Member
mindphuk said:
Can anyone that claims degradation will occur in successive generations of clones give clear specifically what happens to the DNA that creates this mythical problem?

Any talk of loss of vigor or other decline of a strain from asexual reproduction does not have a good understanding of genetics and botany and probably should go read more.

Of course mums can have problems, but that's an individual plant, replace her with a clone and you will be back to where you started.

If anyone doubts this, just look at some of the clone-only strains going around strong after 20-30 years for some. These have been cloned in the thousands of generations to get the ones being sold today.
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Boom. You said it all right there. I'm still wondering why people would go to the trouble of keeping mothers. The cloning from clone method dedicates the growspace only to plants that will flower and produce harvest. Sure, a mother plant can eventually be harvested but it took up a lot of veg space for a long time before that.
 
mared juwan

mared juwan

Well-Known Member
OK, after thinking about it I guess if you have a ton of flower space and can only keep it full of plants by taking many many cuttings then you would need a mother. But only if you had a LOT of space.
 
I

I'msostonedagain

Well-Known Member
All depends on genetics. I have had strains that didn't have any genetic diversity for at least 10 generations. I also have one right now that is getting tired after only 5 generations. The first generations rooted in 5-6 days. Now they take almost 2 weeks, and produce about 25-30% less yeild. What happens is that the genetics diversify...they adapt to your growing environment. Thats how they lose vigor. How you take care of your moms makes a huge difference. If you just keep moms alive rather than keep them thriving, you are sharing any problems that mom has with the clones. Treat them as well as you treat your crop, and you will be rewarded for generations to come.
 
TURBS

TURBS

Active Member
mared juwan said:
I think this qualifies as an "advanced technique" question. Cloning is not exactly newb territory. And the difference between taking cuttings from a single mother plant and the cloning of clones is something a lot of "advanced" growers seem to disagree on. I've seen many knowledgable growers say that cloning clones degrades potency and other factors. However, in my own experience this is not true. I have a strain which I have done this for 8 generations now. Meaning I grew the original plant from seed, then I cloned that plant before flowering it and vegged its clones until they were ready to give clones and then repeated the process. EIGHT times. I am rather limited on space and keeping mothers is just not feasible. Especially when I have noticed that as I selectively clone the healthiest and fastest-rooting plants the quality has actually INCREASED from all this, rather than the other way around. I am of the opinion that my 8th generation of this strain is more potent and vigorously growing than the original plant or any generation in between. They have only gotten better instead of worse which is the opposite of what many sources claim. Even so, when I tell people this I usually get a tisk tisk response saying you're not supposed to do this. But I've never gotten anyone to fully explain to me what is bad about it.
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I agree. It is likely a myth to sell seeds n such. Why wouldn't it be as good. As he said it is basicaly its twin. All plants are basically clones mixed with clones, slightly changing with every mix. You could in theory keep a plant "alive" through cloning indefinatly. PS I am a complete noob.
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
I'msostonedagain said:
All depends on genetics. I have had strains that didn't have any genetic diversity for at least 10 generations. I also have one right now that is getting tired after only 5 generations. The first generations rooted in 5-6 days. Now they take almost 2 weeks, and produce about 25-30% less yeild. What happens is that the genetics diversify...they adapt to your growing environment. Thats how they lose vigor. How you take care of your moms makes a huge difference. If you just keep moms alive rather than keep them thriving, you are sharing any problems that mom has with the clones. Treat them as well as you treat your crop, and you will be rewarded for generations to come.
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Yet another claim to this mysterious degradation of the genome without any actual proposal how this happens. Sorry but your anecdotal evidence isn't compelling. At least offer a hypothesis how the 'genetics diversify'. How does the DNA get altered by your growing environment? Everything you claim that occurs can be attributed to technique. If you started out fine with the genetics 10 generations ago and now you are having problems, look to operator error, not some magically transforming DNA.
 
FrostickZero

FrostickZero

Well-Known Member
Yes you can take a clone off a clone. Just don't take a clone off of any plant if they are stressed and not healthy. If you take a clone off a unhealthy plant you will get a unhealthy plant.
 
Woomeister

Woomeister

Well-Known Member
I'msostonedagain said:
All depends on genetics. I have had strains that didn't have any genetic diversity for at least 10 generations. I also have one right now that is getting tired after only 5 generations. The first generations rooted in 5-6 days. Now they take almost 2 weeks, and produce about 25-30% less yeild. What happens is that the genetics diversify...they adapt to your growing environment. Thats how they lose vigor. How you take care of your moms makes a huge difference. If you just keep moms alive rather than keep them thriving, you are sharing any problems that mom has with the clones. Treat them as well as you treat your crop, and you will be rewarded for generations to come.
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Re: Will sucessive plant clones show genetic degradation?

Date: Thu Nov 8 00:07:40 2001
Posted By: David Hershey, Faculty, Botany, NA
Area of science: Botany
ID: 1005191948.Bt
Message:

Apparently not if some discretion is used and any obviously inferior plants that occasionally appear in the cloned population due to mutation are rogued out. In fact, some clones, such as 'Red Delicious' apple will occasionally produce mutant branches (called sporting) that can give rise to new and superior cultivars. Many fruit tree, rose, and flower bulb clones are well over 100 years old. I'm not sure which plant is the oldest clone in cultivation. Several fruit cultivars from the 1600s still exist. The 'Barlett' pear is said to have originated in 1765 under the name 'Williams' Bon Chretien' but some think that the 'Barlett' pear may have even originated before 1600. Tulips 'Zomerschoon' and 'Duc van Tol' supposedly date back to 1620. According to Guinness Book of World Records, the oldest wild plant clone is the triploid kings lomatia or kings holly (Lomatia tasmanica) at 43,600 years. It is not known for sure if the plant has remained genetically identical all those years but a 43,600 year old fossil leaf appears identical to living specimens. Quaking aspen clones are thought have survived over one million years (Mitton and Grant, 1996).
 
misshestermoffitt

misshestermoffitt

New Member
According to George Cervantes and the indoor marijuana growing bible, a clone will be a replica of the mother, as long as it has been kept in veg.

What weakens the genetics is when it goes into flower and then reverts back to veg.

Always clone before changing to 12/12.



theRANKOR said:
is it possible to veg a clone and keep it as a mother plant and take more clones off it ?
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mared juwan

mared juwan

Well-Known Member
Woomeister said:
Re: Will sucessive plant clones show genetic degradation?


Apparently not if some discretion is used and any obviously inferior plants that occasionally appear in the cloned population due to mutation are rogued out. In fact, some clones, such as 'Red Delicious' apple will occasionally produce mutant branches (called sporting) that can give rise to new and superior cultivars.
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Yes, thanks for that woomeister. This is the phenomena I was talking about earlier. By cutting only the strongest branches and keeping the fastest rooting ones I believe my strains actually are stronger than at first. I've also had some interesting results with cloning triploid branches. This also leads into what Frostick Zero and MHH said. Only by taking unhealthy cuts or partially flowered cuts do we degrade the potential. :clap:
 
I

I'msostonedagain

Well-Known Member
mindphuk said:
Yet another claim to this mysterious degradation of the genome without any actual proposal how this happens. Sorry but your anecdotal evidence isn't compelling. At least offer a hypothesis how the 'genetics diversify'. How does the DNA get altered by your growing environment? Everything you claim that occurs can be attributed to technique. If you started out fine with the genetics 10 generations ago and now you are having problems, look to operator error, not some magically transforming DNA.
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The point is that once this diversification has been passed on, you cant get it back. Diversification is rapidly increases by grower error. Point is that once your clones start taking longer to root and your yeild starts decreasing, no matter how well you take care of mom after that, you arent gonna get your vigor back without crossing.
 
bicycle racer

bicycle racer

Well-Known Member
i have cloned from clones seems they adapt to your personal grow style and become stronger i have only done 5 generations though.
 
weedyoo

weedyoo

Well-Known Member
Woomeister said:
Re: Will sucessive plant clones show genetic degradation?

Date: Thu Nov 8 00:07:40 2001
Posted By: David Hershey, Faculty, Botany, NA
Area of science: Botany
ID: 1005191948.Bt
Message:

Apparently not if some discretion is used and any obviously inferior plants that occasionally appear in the cloned population due to mutation are rogued out. In fact, some clones, such as 'Red Delicious' apple will occasionally produce mutant branches (called sporting) that can give rise to new and superior cultivars. Many fruit tree, rose, and flower bulb clones are well over 100 years old. I'm not sure which plant is the oldest clone in cultivation. Several fruit cultivars from the 1600s still exist. The 'Barlett' pear is said to have originated in 1765 under the name 'Williams' Bon Chretien' but some think that the 'Barlett' pear may have even originated before 1600. Tulips 'Zomerschoon' and 'Duc van Tol' supposedly date back to 1620. According to Guinness Book of World Records, the oldest wild plant clone is the triploid kings lomatia or kings holly (Lomatia tasmanica) at 43,600 years. It is not known for sure if the plant has remained genetically identical all those years but a 43,600 year old fossil leaf appears identical to living specimens. Quaking aspen clones are thought have survived over one million years (Mitton and Grant, 1996).
Click to expand...
yes thanks for this. so over time if you did make a bad choice it could go bad.
 
M

Mr.Funk

Well-Known Member
Hello there, Sorry for posting a Question in your thread but i was wondering if i took a clone from a flowering plant in less then two weeks of flowering, would it stress or hurt the plant at all and will the clone survive Thanks.
 
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