Climate in the 21st Century

Will Humankind see the 22nd Century?

  • Not a fucking chance

    Votes: 44 28.0%
  • Maybe. if we get our act together

    Votes: 41 26.1%
  • Yes, we will survive

    Votes: 72 45.9%

  • Total voters
    157

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I figure in a decade the situation in some places will be reversed with dwindling numbers of gas stations. As volumes decrease with more EVs on the roads gas stations will close or switch uses because of reduced gas sales. The current ICE fleet is an average of 12 years old and by 2035 they are shooting mostly if not all the new cars sold are EVs in most places and depending on the country or region, a large portion of the cars should be EVs. I expect the number of charging points to grow and the number of gas stations to shrink starting over the next decade.

Much depends on emerging battery technology IMO, Lion batteries leave much to be desired, in terms of safety, range, temp performance, durability, resources and cost. According to many reports we appear to be getting there with the batteries, with factories going up and new chemistries going into production. The auto industry has bet the farm on the transition to EVs, but it might mean some changes to the kinds of vehicles some people drive. The era of the SUV and suburban half ton might be coming to an end for many, driving 3 tons of shit to the corner store to pick up milk might be a thing of the past for many.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I figure in a decade the situation in some places will be reversed with dwindling numbers of gas stations. As volumes decrease with more EVs on the roads gas stations will close or switch uses because of reduced gas sales. The current ICE fleet is an average of 12 years old and by 2035 they are shooting mostly if not all the new cars sold are EVs in most places and depending on the country or region, a large portion of the cars should be EVs. I expect the number of charging points to grow and the number of gas stations to shrink starting over the next decade.

Much depends on emerging battery technology IMO, Lion batteries leave much to be desired, in terms of safety, range, temp performance, durability, resources and cost. According to many reports we appear to be getting there with the batteries, with factories going up and new chemistries going into production. The auto industry has bet the farm on the transition to EVs, but it might mean some changes to the kinds of vehicles some people drive. The era of the SUV and suburban half ton might be coming to an end for many, driving 3 tons of shit to the corner store to pick up milk might be a thing of the past for many.
Contrarily, I think the petroleum infrastructure will be fairly robust. My reasoning:

1) Current combustion vehicles are built to go a long way/time with minimal maintenance. There are enough people who like to keep a car for decades, and people who buy older cars to save on the purchase, that there will be demand for fuel for 30 years easy, barring regulatory pressure.

2) The places where EVs will first be adopted are densely-populated metro areas. These have the bulk of the Wesyern world’s cars, so cities will have a mix of charging and filling stations.

It is in metro areas that I expect filling station attrition to happen first and most, simply because there are a buttload of stations on the ground currently. But I anticipate it being very much slower than you suggest — once again barring a strong artificial regulatory bias.

3) The gas and Diesel car and truck (and farm machine) will remain king of the open country for a long time.
Rural users have real need of vehicles with long range and all-weather operability. Under current and reasonably projected tech, that disqualifies electrics. I expect filling stations in low-population-density regions to be here for the rest of my life, and to outnumber charging stations.

The technology of BEVs will need to become MUCH better before they prevail in ranchland.
Also, the electrical grid has a great deal of evolving to do before it can service a countryside of combines and stock trucks.

Or anything heavy whose manufacturer livery is green or yellow.

Summary: filling stations will be with us for decades yet — that is barring punitive regulation. My car is 10 years old, and I expect to get another 20-30 years of service from it.

By then I expect my next vehicle to have much better efficiency, adverse-condition capability and range (and reduced weight from more energy-dense storage than the current 240 Wh per freakin kilogram) and considerably lower price than current EVs that aren’t an Aptera with the 1000-mile battery. I also expect it to have a coupla kW of ~45%-efficient solar on its upper surfaces, and autonomous operation. When I lose my operator’s license due to the slings and arrows of advancing age, a true self-driving AI on wheels will keep me independently mobile.
 
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VaSmile

Well-Known Member
It will be a long time before we can electrify
I figure in a decade the situation in some places will be reversed with dwindling numbers of gas stations. As volumes decrease with more EVs on the roads gas stations will close or switch uses because of reduced gas sales. The current ICE fleet is an average of 12 years old and by 2035 they are shooting mostly if not all the new cars sold are EVs in most places and depending on the country or region, a large portion of the cars should be EVs. I expect the number of charging points to grow and the number of gas stations to shrink starting over the next decade.

Much depends on emerging battery technology IMO, Lion batteries leave much to be desired, in terms of safety, range, temp performance, durability, resources and cost. According to many reports we appear to be getting there with the batteries, with factories going up and new chemistries going into production. The auto industry has bet the farm on the transition to EVs, but it might mean some changes to the kinds of vehicles some people drive. The era of the SUV and suburban half ton might be coming to an end for many, driving 3 tons of shit to the corner store to pick up milk might be a thing of the past for many.
Gas stations make little profit off the sale of gas. They exist to fit the needs of society. They will exist as long as that need is present which will still be a while is rural areas until we get a robust 600+mi range market. Pay for charge stations are going to go in parking lots that are already for people having hr+ stays not at in and out convenients stores. there will be little reason for most people to stop for a charge as they will start most days on a full charge and have the chance to charge in places they spend significant time. Charge times are going to be a challenge for long haul efficiency and the only work around i can think of is a battery exchange system similar to propane tanks drop your empty one grab a full one.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
It will be a long time before we can electrify

Gas stations make little profit off the sale of gas. They exist to fit the needs of society. They will exist as long as that need is present which will still be a while is rural areas until we get a robust 600+mi range market. Pay for charge stations are going to go in parking lots that are already for people having hr+ stays not at in and out convenients stores. there will be little reason for most people to stop for a charge as they will start most days on a full charge and have the chance to charge in places they spend significant time. Charge times are going to be a challenge for long haul efficiency and the only work around i can think of is a battery exchange system similar to propane tanks drop your empty one grab a full one.
My essay immediately preceding this post treats of some of this.

For the long-haulers, a possible solution is distributed stretches of overhead electrification. This allows the truck to charge and operate on external power without downtime. At MW+ charging rates, only 10% of the interstate network need be electrified.

If a battery-swap architecture is needed, robotic service stations would be a good thing. A current-tech 1.0 MWh battery weighs about five metric tons.

I would not be surprised if the heavy truck manufacturers adopt a transitional rail-style Diesel-electric architecture, with a smallish (100 kWh?) battery to handle starts, stops and the variable-speed operation between freeway and urban or suburban port of call.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Efficient solar enhanced electroliers powered by solar power farms could be a game changer for Australia. Australia has vast quantities of iron ore that it currently sends to China for smelting using coal, they could make green steel with green hydrogen at home instead using solar power. Heating iron ore to 400C with hydrogen gas causes the oxygen in the ore to be turned into water vapor leaving iron "sponge" behind for later reduction in electric arc furnaces. Australia has abundant solar power and lots of desert land to put solar panels on and might make a lot of green steel in a couple of decades. They have the iron ore and could have the hydrogen and energy to produce plenty of green steel using green power and hydrogen in a decade. I sure many including the government see the opportunities that plunging solar power prices and other technical advances are presenting to their large iron mining industry. Ship steel and iron to China, even iron sponge, instead of iron ore and it will significantly lower carbon emissions from China's steel industry, Australia will have the solar energy to process it at home in an environmentally friendly value-added form cheaply.

There's a new generation of iron air batteries for stationary or utility applications that uses this cycle. The biggest drawback is slow charge and discharge rates but with a big enough installation this can be transformed into an advantage, creating the ideal storage for excess solar during the day and discharging all night, with plenty of backup capability for cloudy days.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Contrarily, I think the petroleum infrastructure will be fairly robust. My reasoning:

1) Current combustion vehicles are built to go a long way/time with minimal maintenance. There are enough people who like to keep a car for decades, and people who buy older cars to save on the purchase, that there will be demand for fuel for 30 years easy, barring regulatory pressure.

2) The places where EVs will first be adopted are densely-populated metro areas. These have the bulk of the Wesyern world’s cars, so cities will have a mix of charging and filling stations.

It is in metro areas that I expect filling station attrition to happen first and most, simply because there are a buttload of stations on the ground currently. But I anticipate it being very much slower than you suggest — once again barring a strong artificial regulatory bias.

3) The gas and Diesel car and truck (and farm machine) will remain king of the open country for a long time.
Rural users have real need of vehicles with long range and all-weather operability. Under current and reasonably projected tech, that disqualifies electrics. I expect filling stations in low-population-density regions to be here for the rest of my life, and to outnumber charging stations.

The technology of BEVs will need to become MUCH better before they prevail in ranchland.
Also, the electrical grid has a great deal of evolving to do before it can service a countryside of combines and stock trucks.

Or anything heavy whose manufacturer livery is green or yellow.

Summary: filling stations will be with us for decades yet — that is barring punitive regulation. My car is 10 years old, and I expect to get another 20-30 years of service from it.

By then I expect my next vehicle to have much better efficiency, adverse-condition capability and range (and reduced weight from more energy-dense storage than the current 240 Wh per freakin kilogram) and considerably lower price than current EVs that aren’t an Aptera with the 1000-mile battery. I also expect it to have a coupla kW of ~45%-efficient solar on its upper surfaces, and autonomous operation. When I lose my operator’s license due to the slings and arrows of advancing age, a true self-driving AI on wheels will keep me independently mobile.
I expect gas stations to be around for a while too, the next decade will only see the beginning of the decline, depending on where one is, it could be faster or slower. Gasoline is a global commodity however so expect demand to drop at some point particularly in Europe and China and some more densely populated regions of America too. As I said, the world's automakers have bet the farm on the transition of light vehicles to EVs, and they did it for a reason. Much depends on batteries, but once they arrive it will be like the transition from steam to the diesel and electric for the railways, it just made economic sense to do it. Right now, EVs are expensive, but they will get cheaper over time with more plentiful, better batteries, and will fill more market niches, even your particular one.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Maybe people will get the idea that electing idiots and liars is not a good plan when their survival is on the fucking line! Older voters support the republicans the most and they also suffer and die from the heat the most too. I suppose it is a lot like covid for the fact free though, even when bitch slapped by reality with it. It is uncomfortable and hazardous to health, but it can be blamed on Biden and the democrats.

 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
I think it's time a wall was built at the northern border of the US and we get tRump to pay for it! Gonna be a lot of climate refugees headed north pretty soon so we'll need a lot of cages for them too. ;)

:peace:
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Where I live power is 16 cents a kilowatt and gas costs $1.85 a liter, so electric is cheaper per kilometer, it costs around $16./100km for electric (5km/kWh) and about 18 to 20 bucks for gas. With some home solar generation though, the cost of electricity for home charging could be slashed or eliminated.

 
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