Climate Change? Of course. Which way?

Doer said:
Yes, yes. It still skirts the issue. The side that has decided, has decided to excoricate, label and be-little and marginalize those that say we don't know. Such an attitude.

That's very obvious in these threads. If we as much as question the other sides fervent belief that the earth is warming, we are treated like cults have treated non-believers throughout history. If it was just scientific debate, no one would be sending out survey for consensus. That is simply creating momentum behind a global political agenda.

..
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If you follow the history of the debate itself you will encounter organizations such as the now dismantled Global Climate Coalition. This group of prominant energy producers and car manufacturers used the "pioneering" methods of the cigarette manufactures in it's stated purpose of "introducing doubt" into the "debate" about global warming just as the cigarette manufacturers instilled doubt about the detrimental effects of cigarettes. This purposeful churning of scientific findings held the findings and facts about the dangers of cigarettes at bay for 10 years or more until medical evidence was finally overwhelming. What you claim is the global political agenda was initiated by those with perceptions that they had the most to lose - energy producers and auto manufacturers. They knew full well that casting doubt into an otherwise purely scientific debate would result in a political storm that would inhibit reasonable discourse and give them many more years of the status quo.
 
cannofbliss said:
the short answer would be climates will change in order to achieve equilibrium... ;)
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Indeed, in order to achieve that equilbrium in response to man made pressure. Eventually even that equilibrium breaks down after a tipping point event such as melting permafrost or co2 saturation of the oceans which now serve as a carbon sink to name but two.
 
Dire predictions indeed. Sea levels rise 3-4 feet. All world gov't must unite. Also:

Greenland and vast areas of the Antartic peninsula become nicer.
Canada China, and Russia get all weather ports
A surpurb trade short-cut happens for the NorHemi, The NorthWest Passage

Equalibrium is established just in time as the new global conflicts heat up between
the North and South hemi concerning cross-equtorial polution.

We live here. And I belive the heart of this WORRY is group guilt in the
Judeo culture. eye-e posted a great quote over in the Gnostic thread.

I also believe in a very Eastern concept. "Everything, always works out for the best."
Of course, there are tangled karma threads to get to "always."

If there is GW or even (gasp) AGW, then perhaps only our excess heat and CO2 production
will save civilization from the coming Ice Age. I believe that cycle is well established.

No worries and nothing to get shook about in any case.
 
Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
It's getting hard to be someone but it all works out.
It doesn't matter much to me.
 
Brick Top said:
So does "Jason, "Freddie" and The Bogyman, but luckily just like the re-badged Anthropological Global Warming, now called "climate change," "Jason, "Freddie" and "The Bogyman" don't exist either.
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Except that no serious body of scientists maintains that Jason, Freddie or the Boogyman do exist. Follow the money, the big money is behind the nay sayers.
 
canndo said:
Except that no serious body of scientists maintains that Jason, Freddie or the Boogyman do exist. Follow the money, the big money is behind the nay sayers.
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How can you believe big money is not behind the cult, also? It's a big money, global federalism play. The smart money is wait and see.
 
And of course, it is no longer scientific debate. It is strong arm and ridicule of any contra research to the DONE DEAL. I'm sure the turd wars will go on, while the real research continues into Cloud Effect. But, broad avenue of investigation have already been co opted.

Paleo-everything is currently polluted, imo. IAC, the world is cooling, significantly because of Cloud Effect. And alas, it gets harder to track down the peer review. It's being hidden by the popular press turd. NPR is a slimy contributor. So, just the Forbes article for now. Still digging.

The ice sheets are growing as many glaciers are gaining mass even as the pin up girl glaciers are losing and the the Wonder will be there may be a Northern passage but no Southern one if the Antarctica ice merges up to Terra Del Feugo.

It is quite possible that all this Ice mass swaps around. We just have not been observing that long or well and the datasets are No Good.

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman (meaning that the current Understand is always under scientific assault)


Antarctic Sea Ice Sets Another Record http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2012/09/19/antarctic-sea-ice-sets-another-record/
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"NPR failed to mention anywhere in its article that Antarctic sea ice has been growing since satellites first began measuring the ice 33 years ago and the sea ice has been above the 33-year average throughout 2012."

Bad science tries to fit the result to the agenda. That's why it is bad. And when it is contrived and shouted about, it's really BAD.

A simple clue, I think.
 
*BUDS said:
97% of world climate scientists say it does exist and is getting worse, 3% (on the payroll of oil,coal co. etc)say there is no global warming. I dont know where you get this 1/3 bullshit. Also just a Q, do you know more about climate change than the scientists?
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no, thats incorrect.

climatologists (people who actually study the climate and it's changes over time) are NOT arguing for "man made climate change" they are in fact split on the issue with some arguing that it's POSSIBLE that human action is effecting the global climate, while others dismiss the idea as poppycock since we are still on an upswing from a minor glaciation 1200 years ago.

the earth has been MUCH warmer, and MUch cooler in the past all without any help from man, so most climatologists are arguing that we need more research (and more grants) while the 5 quadrillion assholes who couldnt tell an ice core from an otter pop that have jumped on the climate bandwagon chirp and fret about the need for more funding and research (in their dubious specialties of course) to determine the effects of global warming on the migratory and mating habits of the english ground squirrel, and the "increase" in summer glacial melt in northern polar regions.

protip: glaciations happen in one hemisphere then the other, as a result of axial wobble, not the cookfires of primitive hominnids in the Ngorro Ngorro valley. when we have an ice age up here in the northern hemisphere they have a heatwave in the south, and vice versa.
 
Doer said:
And of course, it is no longer scientific debate. It is strong arm and ridicule of any contra research to the DONE DEAL. I'm sure the turd wars will go on, while the real research continues into Cloud Effect. But, broad avenue of investigation have already been co opted.

Paleo-everything is currently polluted, imo. IAC, the world is cooling, significantly because of Cloud Effect. And alas, it gets harder to track down the peer review. It's being hidden by the popular press turd. NPR is a slimy contributor. So, just the Forbes article for now. Still digging.

The ice sheets are growing as many glaciers are gaining mass even as the pin up girl glaciers are losing and the the Wonder will be there may be a Northern passage but no Southern one if the Antarctica ice merges up to Terra Del Feugo.

It is quite possible that all this Ice mass swaps around. We just have not been observing that long or well and the datasets are No Good.

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman (meaning that the current Understand is always under scientific assault)


Antarctic Sea Ice Sets Another Record http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2012/09/19/antarctic-sea-ice-sets-another-record/
----------------------------------------


"NPR failed to mention anywhere in its article that Antarctic sea ice has been growing since satellites first began measuring the ice 33 years ago and the sea ice has been above the 33-year average throughout 2012."

Bad science tries to fit the result to the agenda. That's why it is bad. And when it is contrived and shouted about, it's really BAD.

A simple clue, I think.
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Sea ice is thin ... much area, little volume. It has very little to do with the grounded, thick icecaps and glaciers. They're the ones to watch, and shelf ice (land ice that has made it to deep water) has been having a bad few decades. cn
 
Oh the mass, sure. But, the albedo. The Cloud Effect. And as the good Dr. K has pointed out, the hemispheric heat pump, swap cycles are barely known. Tied to wobble, sure, the Sun? Sure. Gravity waves in upper cloud decks, maybe.

Cloud Effect is the mechanism. And it is very reassuring that the sea ice is spreading albedo and not golloping mass. That would mean the oceans are <gulp> cooling. At the air/water interface, it's closed loop, it seems.

The entire satellite dataset began only 30 years ago and is a square peg. Now, we need the square hole, as it were.
 
Doer said:
Oh the mass, sure. But, the albedo. The Cloud Effect. And as the good Dr. K has pointed out, the hemispheric heat pump, swap cycles are barely known. Tied to wobble, sure, the Sun? Sure. Gravity waves in upper cloud decks, maybe.

Cloud Effect is the mechanism. And it is very reassuring that the sea ice is spreading albedo and not golloping mass. That would mean the oceans are <gulp> cooling. At the air/water interface, it's closed loop, it seems.

The entire satellite dataset began only 30 years ago and is a square peg. Now, we need the square hole, as it were.
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you forgot to mention that over the last 8 years the mean surface temp on mars is up by just under 2 degrees F! we must reduce carbon emissions to stop Anthropogenic Extraterrestrial Climate Change!
 
Dr Kynes said:
you forgot to mention that over the last 8 years the mean surface temp on mars is up by just under 2 degrees F! we must reduce carbon emissions to stop Anthropogenic Extraterrestrial Climate Change!
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Right, because even if that was true, the cause of change in Mars surface temperatures is exactly the same reason the Earth's change... :roll:

Do any of these supposed changes on Mars take into account the eccentric orbit of Mars or the albedo of the surface?
 
Me! Me. I do. A very, Round stable orbit is lacking for Mars. Also, Mars lost it's molten iron core. (Well sir, there's your problem, right there) Smaller and less dense than Earth, it could not hold on to it's bio-sphere. It doesn't have that big moon to drag tidal heating constantly around the planet.

No liquid core, then no magnetic field, space weather strips the upper atmosphere. The lower and lower pressure from atmospheric loss leads to sublimation of water into vapor and the radiation sterilizes the surface. Open loop.

The only way to terra-form Mars, IMO is to bring an appropriate mass into Orbit to heat it, first. This is not mainstream. But, I am familiar with the other proposals. None have solved this, Even in the epic work, Red Mars, they did not solve this one. Oh, they dug giant deep holes to release the higher temps in the crust to the atmosphere.

But, if you don't heat the core, that is a dead end.
 
Doer said:
Me! Me. I do. A very, Round stable orbit is lacking for Mars. Also, Mars lost it's molten iron core. (Well sir, there's your problem, right there) Smaller and less dense than Earth, it could not hold on to it's bio-sphere. It doesn't have that big moon to drag tidal heating constantly around the planet.

No liquid core, then no magnetic field, space weather strips the upper atmosphere. The lower and lower pressure from atmospheric loss leads to sublimation of water into vapor and the radiation sterilizes the surface. Open loop.

The only way to terra-form Mars, IMO is to bring an appropriate mass into Orbit to heat it, first. This is not mainstream. But, I am familiar with the other proposals. None have solved this, Even in the epic work, Red Mars, they did not solve this one. Oh, they dug giant deep holes to release the higher temps in the crust to the atmosphere.

But, if you don't heat the core, that is a dead end.
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in Mining the Oort, and Birth of Fire the premise was to bring water as ice from the outer solar system to add a thermal vault to the planet so it could save the heat it does receive from the sun. this seemed fairly sensible as the oceans of earth really do a bangup job of moderating temps down here.

but then we may just need to bring a team of twenty of so pyromancers to mars and have them work a few major incantations to up the FUL levels on the planet to balance it's abundant YA. once you got that down its simple alchemy and you got some real shit going down on the red planet.

also, we need more homunculi. i ate the last one.
 
Doer said:
Luddite. (and a few more characters)
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im not a luddite.

im a NEO-LUDDITE! i like to keep that shit on the fresh tip with shiny new things to hate when i light the factory on fire.

except now it's an i-Pod mill, or a Microsoft prison workhouse.

gotta stay current or your Luddism fails.

or does it...
 
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