Citric Acid

Brawndo G

Active Member
rhizosphere pH can be largely different than soil pH - depending on what the plants crave & excretes/secrets
We all know plants crave electrolytes!! That's why Brawndo works LOL.

Seriously though, I know that. The pH of the rhizosphere doesn't change the composition of the soil. The composition of the soil drives the soil chemistry. Why do you think professional farmers get soil tests and amend accordingly rather than guessing?

Plus, I already said in my first post in this thread that the root tips excrete lots of acids which are necessary to uptake calcium, and if the soil stays too wet it dilutes those acids. Having the proper ratios of ca/mg/k in the soil guarantees the soil won't hold too much moisture. Ca holds less water than mg and k, which means there is more oxygen in the soil. The roots have nothing to do with that.
 

Brawndo G

Active Member
??? isn't the tip of the root a slimey mucuous hydrophobic region that should actually repel water?
The Ca should enter the root like the water does
Why are you equating calcium to water? Organic and amino acid exudates from the root tips are the only way to pick up calcium by a root.
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Seriously though, I know that. The pH of the rhizosphere doesn't change the composition of the soil. The composition of the soil drives the soil chemistry. Why do you think professional farmers get soil tests and amend accordingly rather than guessing?
this is not what I'm refering to (I did quote)
you made some theories that when soil becomes too basic, nute assimilation would stop. yet, there are many plants dwelling easy in such an environment

hemp dwells also (outdoor soil) between pH 6-7.5. my point is that it can still mobilize nutritions based on a changed rhizosphere pH, and that works both ways:
IMG_20220305_034620~3.jpg
left is ammonia, right nitrate N-feed strat
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Why are you equating calcium to water? Organic and amino acid exudates from the root tips are the only way to pick up calcium by a root.
the passive intake of Ca is known by many. transpiration increases >> massflow increases >> Ca assimilation increases.
So u say when a Ca++ ion enters apoplastically through a non-selective ion-channel, it doesnt work? and has to be chelated first? why should that be the case?
 
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Brawndo G

Active Member
You're using big words, but you don't know what you're talking about. (edit: I think we are just misunderstanding each other)

As far as the pH issue, I was referring specifically to ca++ being turned into caco3 by water with more than 65 ppms of bicarbonates in an alkaline soil, thus rendering it unavailable to the plant.
 
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Brawndo G

Active Member
??? isn't the tip of the root a slimey mucuous hydrophobic region that should actually repel water?
The Ca should enter the root like the water does
You may be right that the calcium does not enter the root at the tip. What I was meaning to say was that the calcium cannot enter the root without the exudates from the root tips.

Btw, we're all on the same team here. I grow organically with microbes. I learned to grow in 2010 by reading the Rev's TLO book and articles in skunk mag. Then, a few years ago I got tired of feeling like my yield was mediocre and made it my mission to figure out how to maximize my yield and produce the same high quality buds. When I found out that the soil composition is more important than microbes, I felt like I was sold a false bill of goods. Proper soil composition actually increases the microbial content in the soil, and that's due to a high calcium content which maximizes oxygen in the soil. Did you know that roots need more air than leaves? Crazy right? Also, manganese must be at least equal to iron content or greater to maximize yields. Manganese converts simple sugars to complex ones in the plant tissue which also provides stout immunity to pests as they cannot handle complex sugars. I've seen it for myself. I run about 30 plants at a time in a 4'x10' bed outside. They are right next to a thick stand of cane grass full of grasshoppers and other bugs which hangout on the leaves every night and barely even do the most miniscule damage to the leaves. I've also witnessed bud caterpillars on my buds barely eat anything before they slow down and die, and I don't spray anything that would cause this otherwise. There's a bit more to maximizing yield, but I'm tired of typing. High calcium content in the plant also improved the quality of my buds, and they were already the smoothest, most flavorful, and most potent buds I had ever smoked. Since calcium holds less water than mg, high ca content in the buds makes the shelf life much longer and produces an ultra-smooth smoke.

I'm not claiming to know everything. I'm sure we can all learn from each other. Can we call a truce?
 
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Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
I'm not claiming to know everything. I'm sure we can all learn from each other. Can we call a truce?
All good, just we've never been "at war". I personally like to do critically hard talk, it's a good way to learn quickly, like 'peer review'.
So forgive me if I was too direct or "aggressive" that is not my intention. It's more a curiosity to debate topics holding alien informations, for all possibilities I could learn something, like this here:

What I was meaning to say was that the calcium cannot enter the root without the exudates from the root tips.
See, I'd like to learn more about this. I've read now 3-4 studies about Ca-absorption, symplastic, apoplastic, actively, passively, via various ion channels or pumps, but none held any mentioning of chelates so far. Ca++ is mentioned. That's a pretty tiny thing compared to the molecular structure of humics, fulvics or amino-acids. Where would that all come from given that roots actually release Ca++ themselves?
The way I understand chelates is a protection against complexion which is mandatory in concentrated fertilizer bottles but in organics the slow- & local release mitigates that largely.
Plus how acids/root exudates can mobilize said minerals. They turn it ionic and protect it from reacting.
Though given how ions accumulate at the roots biomembrane the chelators still would serve a positive function. Yes, and there are organic 'carriers' molecules which act like the chelator principle and these selectively take ions quickly in.
But ion channels seem to carry much more in via diffusion (10k mol vs 1kk mol per s), and last but not least, any non-ionic tiny molecule in water may just make it inside the plant via the normal water-route "drinking", ie. see urea assimiliation.
But the scientific literature make it also clear that they do not understand these mechanisms fully and much need to be learn. But Ca-ions are largely resident in tapwater without organic chelate, it's the water as solving agent with its pH that help serve & stabilize the rate of dissociation of various compounds found there in.
 

waktoo

Well-Known Member
You may be right that the calcium does not enter the root at the tip. What I was meaning to say was that the calcium cannot enter the root without the exudates from the root tips.

Btw, we're all on the same team here. I grow organically with microbes. I learned to grow in 2010 by reading the Rev's TLO book and articles in skunk mag. Then, a few years ago I got tired of feeling like my yield was mediocre and made it my mission to figure out how to maximize my yield and produce the same high quality buds. When I found out that the soil composition is more important than microbes, I felt like I was sold a false bill of goods. Proper soil composition actually increases the microbial content in the soil, and that's due to a high calcium content which maximizes oxygen in the soil. Did you know that roots need more air than leaves? Crazy right? Also, manganese must be at least equal to iron content or greater to maximize yields. Manganese converts simple sugars to complex ones in the plant tissue which also provides stout immunity to pests as they cannot handle complex sugars. I've seen it for myself. I run about 30 plants at a time in a 4'x10' bed outside. They are right next to a thick stand of cane grass full of grasshoppers and other bugs which hangout on the leaves every night and barely even do the most miniscule damage to the leaves. I've also witnessed bud caterpillars on my buds barely eat anything before they slow down and die, and I don't spray anything that would cause this otherwise. There's a bit more to maximizing yield, but I'm tired of typing. High calcium content in the plant also improved the quality of my buds, and they were already the smoothest, most flavorful, and most potent buds I had ever smoked. Since calcium holds less water than mg, high ca content in the buds makes the shelf life much longer and produces an ultra-smooth smoke.

I'm not claiming to know everything. I'm sure we can all learn from each other. Can we call a truce?
Do you have a link to peer reviewed science that demonstrates the type in bold?

I'm not looking to argue, or claim that you're wrong. I don't claim to know everything either, but I've studied soil chemistry quite extensively, and have yet to come across anything that remotely supports this assertion.

From what I understand, dissolved oxygen levels in the soil solution are largely driven by temperature and barometric pressure, followed by salinity.
 

lakesidegrower

Well-Known Member
Sorry for another deviation from citric acid, but I believe this info to be important as well...

If you test your soil before planting in it, you avoid any issues that you would have to figure out otherwise. I do agree that it's possible to diagnose issues without a test, but almost impossible to do accurately since many elements work together to produce deficiency/excess conditions.

Also, it's quite difficult to have too much calcium in the soil unless you are using calcium hydroxide as a soil amendment and not giving it time to cook(or watering in another highly available source of ca which is separate from the ca in the soil matrix), and even then it's only too much because it all goes straight into the soil solution and there's way too much available driving the pH up to ridiculous levels. The ideal base saturation of calcium is 85%, magnesium 10-12%, Potassium 3-5%, Sodium 0%. It's impossible to get anywhere close to 85% with the amount of calcium carbonate in water or rock dusts. However, calcium deficiency will most certainly block p uptake, and watering the soil with water high in bicarbonates can create a ca deficiency. The only way to know what's in your water is to have it tested. The risk of running soil pH too high from adding too much calcium carbonate is basically zero unless it isn't allowed to breakdown and become part of the soil matrix. Even with 85% base saturation of calcium, the soil pH will be somewhere around 7.2, and I don't know if it's even possible to get it higher than 85%. I'd be willing to bet that your soil is in the 40% ca base saturation range, so too much calcium isn't the issue.
I’m definitely listening here - I’m familiar with reading the testing reports, have been spending some time digging a little deeper lately, but still learning. I’m assuming the base saturation reading for Ca takes into account all Ca whether ‘available’ or not… I just figure that if I’m continually adding around 200ppm Ca water over a couple of runs, for example, that Ca is building up over time far faster than my plants could use it, it would also take some time for the Ca bound to to carbonate to become available to be used. Now that doesn’t mean that the built up Ca will
necessarily have a negative impact, I suppose that’s really where I’m not totally confident. I would absolutely be curious what my soil test would look like lol.

This all being said, I suspected excess Ca or excess N were causing other issues, it may well be that N is the culprit from the get go and that I’m actually dealing with a Ca def… oh lord lol

I’m planning to bring a sample of my well water for testing in a couple weeks, will be good to know.I may have to suck it up andget a soil Test as well… anyone know any decent labs in Canada?
 

lakesidegrower

Well-Known Member
My understanding here in a simple way is that Ca++ enters the cellular membrane through protein assemblies called ion channels, the available Ca++ enters via the ionic gradient and is directly related to the plants transpiration rate. Basically it just needs to be there, in its available form, ready for the plant to uptake when needed.
 

2cent

Well-Known Member
How to Maintain the Proper pH of a Growing Medium
Friday, September 24, 2021 | Ed Bloodnick

PDF version of this text: How to Maintain the Proper pH of a Growing Medium

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When asked “How do you maintain the proper pH of a growing medium?”, often the answer is to adjust the water pH to achieve a growing medium pH in the ideal range of 5.6-6.2. This is simply not true. Many hydroponic companies suggest nutrient programs that use reverse osmosis to strip the water of all mineral elements and then use a series of fertilizers to reintroduce the elements removed and add those elements needed to maintain proper vegetative plant growth and flowering. By doing so, the theory is that the growing medium pH should remain stable and not drift into unwanted ranges and proper fertility levels can be maintained. Although it is possible for this to work, the majority of growers experience pH drift problems with their growing medium with this approach.

Growing Medium pH: Treat Like Hydroponics or Soil?
When it comes to adjusting the pH of PRO-MIX and other soilless growing media, these substrates should be viewed as a hybrid between hydroponic solution and soil. Soilless growing media have slightly similar pH management properties and ideal ranges as hydroponic systems because their pH changes somewhat quickly over time compared to soil. But soilless growing medium is more like outdoor soils because pH change is not instant, and a soilless growing medium is like a filter that retains some elements coming from the water, fertilizer and the plant that directly alter the pH of the growing medium.

What Changes Growing Medium pH?
Contrary to popular belief, the pH of the water does not influence the pH of the growing medium. Actually, it is the bicarbonate and carbonate levels in the water, known collectively as alkalinity, the potential acidity or basicity of the fertilizer and the plant itself:

Water Alkalinity
As stated above, water alkalinity is a measurement of carbonates and/or bicarbonates in the water, or another way to put it, is the amount of limestone dissolved in the irrigation water. The higher the alkalinity, the faster the pH of the growing medium climbs regardless of the water pH (Figure 1). If water is passed through a reverse osmosis unit, then alkalinity is very low, so the water does not cause the pH of the growing to rise quickly. Reverse osmosis units are not necessary for most water sources if the fertilizer is properly matched to the water profile and the crop grown.
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Figure 1. This chart shows that the higher the water alkalinity, the more the pH of the growing medium rises, regardless of the water pH.

Fertilizer
Quality water soluble fertilizers typically have the potential acidity or potential basicity posted on their labels to predict their influence on the pH of soilless growing medium, such as PRO-MIX and others. For example, the higher the potential acidity of the fertilizer, the more acid it is. This is often determined by the ratio of nitrogen forms. Ammonium and urea are acidic forms of nitrogen which cause growing medium pH to drop and nitrate is basic which causes growing medium pH to rise. Therefore, if your water has high alkalinity, a fertilizer that has a higher ratio of ammonium to nitrate can be used to minimize pH climb in a growing medium. Also, as a rule, most calcium-based fertilizers are alkaline and cause the pH of the growing medium to increase even if the water goes through a reverse osmosis unit.

Crop
When plants take up fertilizer elements through their roots, these elements all have either a negative charge or positive charge. The plant has to maintain its internal electrical balance, so in order to obtain a positively charged element, such as ammonium, potassium, calcium, magnesium, etc. the plant will release hydrogen into the growing medium, which causes a slight drop in pH near the plant root. Likewise, when a plant root takes up a negatively charged element such as nitrate, phosphorus, sulfate and most micronutrients, it will release hydroxide ions, which will cause a slight pH rise.

Depending on the plant’s requirement for these individual elements, some use a higher ratio of positively charged fertilizer elements, so they are more efficient at acidifying the growing medium. Other plants use a higher ratio of negatively charged fertilizer elements, thus are more efficient at increasing the pH of the growing medium.

To review, the pH of the water does not influence or predict the pH of PRO-MIX or any growing medium. Adjusting the water pH to the ideal growing medium pH of 5.6-6.2 does not mean the pH of a growing medium will remain in this range. Often growers experience nutritional problems because the pH changes independently of the pH of the irrigation water.
 

2cent

Well-Known Member
An acid needs to be added to drive the carbonate off as carbon monoxide and then the pH comes down. So, you use acids or elemental sulfur that converts to sulfuric acid or urea-sulfuric acid fertilizer, or long-term use of acid fertilizers like ammonium sulfate or organic mulches that gradually create acid conditions.”


JULY 2010
Alkalinity in Soilless SubstratesBy Roberto G. Lopez, Claudio Pasian and Michael V. Mickelbart





Yellow, pale or white leaves on the youngest growth of greenhouse and nursery crops are often signs of nutritional deficiencies. In certain instances, the problem may be a lack of a specific nutrients in the substrate; in others, the nutrients may be present, but high substrate pH makes them unavailable to the plant.

It's common practice to add sulfuric (H2SO4), phosphoric (H3PO4), nitric (HNO3) or citric (H3C6H5O7) to irrigation water to neutralize alkalinity and lower the substrate pH. To properly manage irrigation water and substrate pH, it is important to have a clear understanding of the underlying causes behind high substrate pH. Irrigation water alkalinity, rather than pH, is typically the source of the problem. The purpose of this article is to help growers differentiate between high pH and high alkalinity, and explain management strategies for managing alkalinity in soilless substrates.

Some Definitions
In order to proceed, we must review the definition of pH. It is a measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions (H+) in a solution. Examples of solutions are tap water and the water in the rooting substrate of container plants. The pH scale ranges from 0 to 14. A value of 7.0 is neutral. Pure water has a pH of 7.0. Acidic solutions have pH values less than 7.0, and basic (also referred to as alkaline) solutions have pH values greater than 7. In general, the pH of water for irrigating greenhouse and nursery crops should be between 5.5 and 7.

Alkalinity is a measure of the buffering capacity, or the capacity of a solution to neutralize acids. Examples of the primary dissolved bases that contribute to alkalinity in a solution are carbonates (e.g., calcium carbonate) and bicarbonates (e.g., calcium, magnesium, and sodium bicarbonate). Because of the presence of limestone in many Midwest, Great Plains, western New York, Florida and Canadian prairie soils and aquifers, bicarbonates are commonly found in groundwater. Other minor contributors include dissolved ammonia, borates, phosphates and silicates. In practice, the main contributors to alkaline water are carbonates and bicarbonates.

The confusion between high pH and high alkalinity stems from the fact that water is called "alkaline" if its pH is greater than 7, and it is said to have "high alkalinity" if it has a high concentration of bases. However, high pH does not necessarily correspond to high alkalinity and vice versa, although the two often occur simultaneously in irrigation water. Water alkalinity can have a significant effect on substrate pH, but the pH of irrigation water has a minimal effect on the pH of the solution in the substrate. Irrigating crops with water high in alkalinity has the same effect as adding lime to the substrate. The bottom line: Growers need to know what their water alkalinity is then decide whether treatment is necessary.

The units that quantify alkalinity are another possible source of confusion for growers. Alkalinity can be expressed as equivalents of alkalinity (meq/L) or concentration (ppm or mg/L) of total carbonates (as CaCO3), bicarbonate (HCO3-), or hardness (Ca + Mg).

Water hardness and alkalinity are not strictly related, but because alkaline water is typically high in calcium and magnesium carbonates, hardness is often a good approximation of alkalinity. This is because these two elements are often correlated with high levels of:

  • Carbonates (CO3): commonly calcium carbonate, CaCO3
  • Bicarbonates (HCO3-): commonly calcium bicarbonate, Ca(HCO3)2; sodium bicarbonate, (NaHCO3); or magnesium bicarbonate, Mg(HCO3)2
Because different water testing labs use different units to report water alkalinity, it is important for growers to know how to use and interpret these values to calculate how much acid they need to add to their irrigation water.

Alkalinity's Effects
When substrate pH is high, some nutrients won't be available to plants even if they're present in the substrate. The most common deficiency induced by high substrate pH is iron deficiency, which is characterized by interveinal chlorosis (yellowing between the veins) of the upper (new) leaves (Figure 1). Severe iron deficiency may appear as yellowing or whitening of entire new leaves (Figures 2 and 3).

Most soilless substrates used for nursery and greenhouse crops have an initial pH below 7. This is because the components of these mixes, such as peat and bark, have low pH values. Therefore, it takes some time for high-alkalinity irrigation water to affect the media. There are two primary things that determine how quickly a change in substrate pH can occur: container volume and time. The substrate in a small container has a low buffering capacity against changes in pH; therefore, plants growing in small containers that are irrigated with high-alkalinity irrigation water will show deficiency symptoms much faster than plants
growing in larger containers irrigated with the same water.

High-alkalinity water is more likely to affect crops held in the nursery or greenhouse for months or years. That is because any buffering the media initially provides is eventually overwhelmed by the volume of high alkalinity water that builds up carbonates and bicarbonates in the substrate over time. As the media's buffering capacity diminishes, newly unfolding leaves will exhibit deficiency symptoms. Many micronutrients, such as iron, manganese, boron and zinc, cannot move around in a plant once they have been initially taken up. If new leaves develop when iron uptake by the roots is limited by high substrate pH as a result of irrigating with highly alkaline water, the new leaves will develop iron deficiency symptoms. Plants cannot mobilize iron from old to new leaves, so new growth develops the deficiency first.

Certain crops, such as petunia and calibrachoa, have roots that don't absorb iron efficiently. For iron-inefficient crops (see Table 1), maintain pH on the lower side (5.6-6.2) to avoid iron deficiency.

On the other hand, if the pH of the substrate is too low, some crops (such as geraniums, marigolds and lisianthus) may suffer toxicity from an excess of nutrients such as iron and manganese because these nutrients become readily available and are taken up at lower pH values.

Keep Checking
It is important to remember that water alkalinity is not a constant value. It can change seasonally or over time. Growers should test their water at least once or twice a year. In general, surface water from rivers and lakes is less likely to have high alkalinity levels than water from wells. If your water source is an aquifer or well, you may see your water alkalinity increase during droughts and decrease during periods of heavy rain.

It is difficult to say a specific measure of water alkalinity is too high because several factors — including water alkalinity, fertilizer potential acidity/basicity, the amount and type of lime added to the substrate mix, substrate components and the crop itself — affect substrate pH.

Growers can lower water alkalinity by correctly acidifying irrigation water, thereby reducing the concentration of bicarbonates. More precisely, injecting acid into the irrigation water neutralizes alkalinity and forms carbon dioxide and water.

When selecting an acid, consider:

  • Ease of use
  • Safety
  • Cost
  • Nutrients (nitrogen, phosphorous, and sulfur) the acid provides
  • Sulfuric acid is the most common acid growers use because it is inexpensive and relatively safe.
Assessing Chelates
Iron chelates can quickly "green up" crops, which can be desirable before shipping. However, applying iron chelates does not solve the root of the problem: high substrate pH.

If growers do not lower substrate pH to the level appropriate for the crop, then iron deficiency will reappear in time. Furthermore, iron chelates supply only iron, not the other micronutrients (such as manganese, zinc, boron, or copper) that may be unavailable because of high pH levels.

Chelates are available as foliar sprays or substrate drenches. Foliar sprays are the only way to green up mature leaves with severe iron deficiency. After applying an iron chelate, the leaves must be washed off lightly with clear water because extended contact with the chelating agent can cause phytotoxicity, often evident as brown spotting of leaves (Figure 4).

The Take-Home
Important points to remember and act on:

  • Understand the difference between water pH and water alkalinity.
  • Know the pH and the alkalinity of your irrigation water.
  • Remember that water alkalinity has a greater effect on substrate pH than water pH.
  • Use alkalinity to determine how much acid to add to irrigation water, not pH
 

2cent

Well-Known Member
The acidity may have been the result of quinone groups such as carboxyl, phenolic, and hydroxyl groups that easily lower the soil pH [8]. Fulvic acid also influences the growth of soil microbial biomass and microbial activity.



So your not mad or daft or growing bad yes u are right the ca in the water is effectively liming your soil to 7 you need to ro filter it or ad citric acid and or elemental sulphur can also lower it but citric alone will be enough it wil start low 6 and rise with ca up to the value it was.
It turns ca to co2

If you get ro water and add citric acid pH goes to 4 add tap water by the cup 6 cups on its 5.5 ad another cup or 2 its up to 6

Get tap water at 7.2 pH drops to 6.5 and the ppm goes from 30 to 220 as it bubbles off and then pH will be level. PH and alkalinity are 2 different things not related in sale its a weird science most see as just a scale 1 or the other and it's not really it is but it's not hahah
 
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