Christ myth theory
- Thread starter ThickStemz
- Start date
Happygirl
Well-Known Member
Dalek Supreme
Well-Known Member
I found the article disingenuous just like all apologetics.
112 CE: Pliny the Younger Letter to Trajan Regarding Christians
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/pliny.html
Pliny governing where is now present day Turkey writes to the Emperor on what to do with Christians. Romans in general were tolerant of other Religions, but they have to honor their Gods too.
This is evidence of Christians which nobody doubts, but not evidence of an historical Jesus.
115 CE: Cornelius Tacitus
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/tacitus.html
Tacitus' s Annuals is evidence of Christians, and what they believed.
The common apologetic is that Tacitus was such a good historian that he checked the actual documents on Jesus's crucifixion. Though a good historian of his day, there's no evidence he checked such records. The Gospels (at least Mark) were floating around by then, and Tacitus may have gotten the information from Pliny who corresponded with each other.
93-94 CE: Josephus Antiquities of the Jews
Book 18 Chapter 3.3 (Testimonium Flavianum)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-18.htm
Even Apologists will admit partial interpolation. This is mainly because Josephus would not write many of the things it says.
This is probably a scribes marginal note accidentally inserted by a later copyist (thinking an earlier copyist noted what they left out after proof reading).
Chapter 3.2 talks about Jews being massacred by Pilate.
Chapter 3.3 is the good news about Jesus.
Chapter 3.4 starts out "About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder"
Wait! What? Sad calamity? What about Jesus?
Take out Chapter 3.3, and the texts flows.
Book 20 Chapter 9.1
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-20.htm
This is another marginal note inserted in the passage using Matthew 1:16
Matthew 1:16
"16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."
The last sentence in the passage Josephus tells us who Jesus is " Jesus, son of Damneus ".
Keep also in mind that several early church apologists do not cite Josephus as evidence for Jesus.
188-217 CE: Talmud
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/talmud.html
To use the Talmud as evidence for Jesus is laughable at best. Even Bart Ehrman dismisses this as too late. It reads as a polemic against the Jesus story rather than confirming it.
165-175 CE: Lucian of Samosata
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/lucian.html
A satire from the late 2nd century just relates Christians, and what they believed.
The Gospels say Jesus lived, and did miraculous things. The Gospels on textual scrutiny are literary artifices, and do not record history.
People believing things is not evidence of such things being true.
No. The angel Gabriel recited the Quran to Muhammad over a 23 year period. Just because people believe the Quran does not make it true.
Dalek Supreme
Well-Known Member
justugh
Well-Known Member
man this be beyond a moot point ......u want hard proof start learning Aramaic Hebrew and Latin .....apply for access to the Vatican library and go a hunting
otherwise solve the Templar riddle gain access to their records(friday the 13th when the king had them raided under special orders and agreements with the church they found barely any of the treasure they were know to have nor the records) or the really good one find the 2nd copy of the library of Alexandra (half think the masons know a general location for this one)
now here is just some basic history and human psychology
just going off the history their was a man and he did the 12 ppl thing teaching them a way to think and act .....now he is gone each one of those ppl have their own view on what had happen on what they saw felt and thought
.....they argued and the 12 broke up each going the own way talking and teaching a different view ( we still have some today) .........we u know how ppl are when they are right they are right and everyone that does not think like them is wrong (seeing it now in the news ) same thing one sect vs another for a while 200plus years finally the roman catholic came along as head dogs and did the bible in 312
after that date anyone muscling in on them were killed .....up to the 1800s
odds are there is truth behide some of the stories ..........a man thinking differently then the masses has been know to happen ....those ideas and stories get written down and tweaked altered over time to be what it is now
i am honestly shocked that it has not died out with the way it is written it like Shakespeare who the hell talks like that what do those words mean in the time it was written vs what they mean to us now ......but good stories are timeless i guess
New Age United
Well-Known Member
Just one thing justugh; jesus did not tell them how to think and act he told them how to transcend thinking all together and how to just Be. And those 12 did not teach another way but the same way. "When you are to be heard before the high priests, do not worry as to the words you are to speak, for in that moment the Father will give you the words to speak" "it is not I but the father in me that does the works" From the emerald tablet "you are the Father/Mother of all things". What Jesus referred to as God was the true self; Immortal, Awareness. "Surely Allah is hearing, seeing, knowing, nigh " Muhammad
justugh
Well-Known Member
no i am sorry u are bit wrong they did break up after his death and they did go own ways
currently their are 35 off shoots of the idea
http://undergod.procon.org/view.background-resource.php?resourceID=87
i do not need a high preist or anyone to talk to god that is part of what he was teaching .......u want to talk to god talk u do not need anyone else to get to him
that part was the big thing the ppl in charge did not like ........it took the power away from the priest and gave it to the common person ...........then the idea of orginal sin was put in they started to build the wall up telling ppl the only way to god is tho them and they need money and secrets
untill the 1800s the roman chruch was the strongest force on this plant ........more ppl died in the name of god then any other reason in all of history
now instead of them it is the crazy sects of islam twisting the words into meaning what they want
Chunky Stool
Well-Known Member
It is what they are most familiar with. And there's nothing zealots hate more than an insider.
I am the heretic in my family. Mormon kool aid doesn't suit me...
Larry {the} Gardener
Well-Known Member
That reminds me of a bit I heard on Prairie Home Companion's Tales from Lake Wobegon one time. Garrison was talking about a lady who was an atheist. But not in a general way. She was pretty specific that it was the Lutheran God she didn't believe in.
I was raised in the Assembly of God Church. Those are the guys who speak in tongues and do all sorts of other wild and crazy shit. {they were still handling snakes not all that long ago} There must have been an Irish saint somewhere down the line, because one of the ladies would get to shouting Shawn-lee, Shawn-lee, oh Shawn-lee. She could go on for hours. I stuck it out until I was 13. Never been back there, or anywhere else. I did flirt with the Creek Indians for a while, but their religion is just as far fetched as any of the others. I do like the smell of Cedar smudges. I miss that part of it.
Dalek Supreme
Well-Known Member
The evidence for Jesus is in ancient Greek, and there's competent translations online. The evidence are the nonpseudographic letters of Paul, and the Gospels. The Gospels have Markan priority which the other Gospels copied from, and then expanded on.
Paul does not talk about an Earthly Jesus that had a ministry. Every time he makes a theological point he uses Old Testament scripture. Jesus is the OT. People were finding hidden meanings in the verses (often taking it out of context).
Mark is wildly fictitious, and has allegorical allusions to the Old Testament (this is not history) that has Jesus trump, or reverse the OT patriarchs. Here are examples of many that shows it's literary artifice:
*Mark 1:1-3
"1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet,
“Behold, I send my messenger before thy face,
who shall prepare thy way;
3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness:
Prepare the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight—”"
Malachi 3:1
"3 See, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple. The messenger of the covenant in whom you delight—indeed, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts."
Exodus 23:20
"20 “Behold, I send an angel before you, to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place which I have prepared."
Isaiah 40:3
"3 A voice cries:
“In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord,
Make straight in the desert a highway for our God.""
*Mark 1:9-11
"9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove; 11 and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased.” "
Psalm 2:7
"7 I will tell of the decree of the Lord:
He said to me, “You are my son,
today I have begotten you."
Isaiah 42:1
"42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen, in whom my soul delights;
I have put my Spirit upon him,
he will bring forth justice to the nations."
Genesis 22:12
"12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.”"
*Mark 1:12-13
"12 The Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. 13 And he was in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to him."
Numbers 14:32-35
"32 But as for you, your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness. 33 And your children shall be shepherds in the wilderness forty years, and shall suffer for your faithlessness, until the last of your dead bodies lies in the wilderness. 34 According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for every day a year, you shall bear your iniquity, forty years, and you shall know my displeasure.’ 35 I, the Lord, have spoken; surely this will I do to all this wicked congregation that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall come to a full end, and there they shall die.” "
1 Kings 19:5-7
"5 And he lay down and slept under a broom tree; and behold, an angel touched him, and said to him, “Arise and eat.” 6 And he looked, and behold, there was at his head a cake baked on hot stones and a jar of water. And he ate and drank, and lay down again. 7 And the angel of the Lord came again a second time, and touched him, and said, “Arise and eat, else the journey will be too great for you.” "
*Mark 1:16-20
"16 And passing along by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen. 17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow me and I will make you become fishers of men.” 18 And immediately they left their nets and followed him. 19 And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zeb′edee and John his brother, who were in their boat mending the nets. 20 And immediately he called them; and they left their father Zeb′edee in the boat with the hired servants, and followed him."
Exodus 4:27-28
"27 The Lord said to Aaron, “Go into the wilderness to meet Moses.” So he went, and met him at the mountain of God and kissed him. 28 And Moses told Aaron all the words of the Lord with which he had sent him, and all the signs which he had charged him to do."
Jeremiah 16:16
"16 “Behold, I am sending for many fishers, says the Lord, and they shall catch them; and afterwards I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill, and out of the clefts of the rocks."
Ezekiel 47:10
"10 Fishermen will stand beside the sea; from En-ge′di to En-eg′laim it will be a place for the spreading of nets; its fish will be of very many kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea."
*Mark 1:21-28
"21 And they went into Caper′na-um (“Village of Nahum”); and immediately on the sabbath he entered the synagogue and taught. 22 And they were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as the scribes. 23 And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; 24 and he cried out, “What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God.” 25 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be silent, and come out of him!” 26 And the unclean spirit, convulsing him and crying with a loud voice, came out of him. 27 And they were all amazed, so that they questioned among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching! With authority he commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey him.” 28 And at once his fame spread everywhere throughout all the surrounding region of Galilee."
Nahum 1:15
"15 Behold, on the mountains the feet of him
who brings good tidings,
who proclaims peace!
Keep your feasts, O Judah,
fulfil your vows,
for never again shall the wicked come against you,
he is utterly cut off."
1 Kings 17:18
"18 And she said to Eli′jah, “What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!” "
*Mark 1:29-31
"29 And immediately he left the synagogue, and entered the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John. 30 Now Simon’s mother-in-law lay sick with a fever, and immediately they told him of her. 31 And he came and took her by the hand and lifted her up, and the fever left her; and she served them."
1 Kings 17:8-16
"8 Then the word of the Lord came to him, 9 “Arise, go to Zar′ephath, which belongs to Sidon, and dwell there. Behold, I have commanded a widow there to feed you.” 10 So he arose and went to Zar′ephath; and when he came to the gate of the city, behold, a widow was there gathering sticks; and he called to her and said, “Bring me a little water in a vessel, that I may drink.” 11 And as she was going to bring it, he called to her and said, “Bring me a morsel of bread in your hand.” 12 And she said, “As the Lord your God lives, I have nothing baked, only a handful of meal in a jar, and a little oil in a cruse; and now, I am gathering a couple of sticks, that I may go in and prepare it for myself and my son, that we may eat it, and die.” 13 And Eli′jah said to her, “Fear not; go and do as you have said; but first make me a little cake of it and bring it to me, and afterward make for yourself and your son. 14 For thus says the Lord the God of Israel, ‘The jar of meal shall not be spent, and the cruse of oil shall not fail, until the day that the Lord sends rain upon the earth.’” 15 And she went and did as Eli′jah said; and she, and he, and her household ate for many days. 16 The jar of meal was not spent, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the Lord which he spoke by Eli′jah."
*Mark 1:40-45
"40 And a leper came to him beseeching him, and kneeling said to him, “If you will, you can make me clean.” 41 Moved with pity, he stretched out his hand and touched him, and said to him, “I will; be clean.” 42 And immediately the leprosy left him, and he was made clean. 43 And he sternly charged him, and sent him away at once, 44 and said to him, “See that you say nothing to any one; but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, for a proof to the people.” 45 But he went out and began to talk freely about it, and to spread the news, so that Jesus could no longer openly enter a town, but was out in the country; and people came to him from every quarter."
Exodus 4:6-7
"6 Again, the Lord said to him, “Put your hand into your bosom.” And he put his hand into his bosom; and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous, as white as snow. 7 Then God said, “Put your hand back into your bosom.” So he put his hand back into his bosom; and when he took it out, behold, it was restored like the rest of his flesh."
The rest of your post is just filled with Red Herrings...
justugh
Well-Known Member
long and written to a lvl a stoned me can fallow .......bravo
counter points
1 the bible is a collection of stores and views made by a group of guys in the 312
2 the bible has been alter on purpose or by simple error .......the 2nd thing to this point is the meanings of words shift over time
3 the bible was a book designed to pass on morals and teaching that were deemed to be best ....bunch of stories like aesop fables ....stories are ideas a person hears something relating to them and listens it shows them a new line of thinking they can try ...........special side note i would love to get access to the Vatican libraries to see first gen copies of everything collected at that time
4 the bible has 35 off shoots all thinking theirs is the correct way of thinking
i have given myself headaches more times then i can count thinking about all this ..........i mean i cover shit loads of data on everyone i could get hands onto ......i have had internet since 1997 (back in the days where it was just university libraries and ppl on chat rooms(mIRC) way before www and dot coms)
here is a quick way ......if u are down with spending time talking about this stuff this is what u need to do
your old testaments what ever style u know of it learn pick out your ?s anything u want to double check ............go ask a rabbi for a meeting to talk and discuss views on the old testament ( hour maybe 2 ) and talk to him/them about what the bible saids in this part vs what the passage in the torah saids
u will see what i mean ........a word said by them will not translate over into english ..........this happens all the time then someone put in the closets word to the original meaning but it is slightly altered the original meaning
i am sure u can look it up on some web page if u want but i did this by talking to ppl .....most are more then cool to share and talk just need a appointment so they have the time
if u really want to go deep then here is the starting point ........god is in the overlapping parts the rest is man made ( start with all current religions then move back into the classics/dead ones)
Dalek Supreme
Well-Known Member
1) The Bible is a collection of Books, and some letters. The OT is roughly (working on memory) from 1200-300 BCE. The OT is propaganda to unite nomadic people. The earliest books rewrite older polytheistic myths into monotheistic stories.
The NT consist of the letters of Paul 50-60 CE. The Gospels, and book of Acts 70-130 CE. It has interpolations, and forged letters later added.
I hope you are not suggesting that the Bible was made up in the early 4th century?
2) Yes I know the Bible has been messed with.
Here's an example:
The first translation is what we have today.
1 Corinthians 11:23 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread,"
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+11:23&version=RSV
The second translation is literal from our earliest copy of the text.
1 Corinthians 11:23 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
"23 For I -- I received from the Lord that which also I did deliver to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread,"
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+11:23&version=YLT
Notice the first translation Paul is in sync with the later Gospels. The literal translation contradicts the Gospels.
Keep in mind Paul admits he gets his information from OT scripture, and visions from Jesus.
3) I do not see how this pertains to the historicity of Jesus.
Since you are so obsessed over the Vatican, and the 4th century answer this: Do you think Constantine's mother & sister were devout Christians? Keep in mind that most of our information about them is through Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea.
4) There's basicly 3-4 sects of Judaism, and 30,000-40,000 denominations of Christianity.
I'll stick with secular historians for my information...Thanks
justugh
Well-Known Member
not obsessed with them .....just they have the largest collection on history then any other place on earth ( since the found of the thing ppl been willing them their books and works ) .....if u want history actual accounting that have not been messed with then u need the original papers
they are the only ones that have them .........they have it in there but restrict access .....the truth is there the original everything before it has been messed with by man
u are the one looking for this ....that is where to get it (other wise u are going on what others thing from false data in return makes the whole thing moot as u will never get to the real truth of it
that is my point ..........given the extent of tech now a days i can not see why they do not have a group of priest digitally coping the whole thing to a database to save the works them self as some of them are dating back in the BC times
a project like that would make a database anyone could access ....setting facts strait once and for all ......think about the history just from the daily life of someone from then written in a diary like ann frank did
u want to know the whole truth about jesus and what is what that is the only place on this earth or anywhere that u will find answers to it
one last thing ............daleks are dead doctor killed the last one ...... think of me as the doctor in this chat ............u want the truth one way to get it unless u have time traveling and that is in the vatican library
and why the hell do u keep quoting bible passages
u want it from historians that started off at the wrong point so everything of their work is messed up ........get it from ppl that were there in the original work
Dalek Supreme
Well-Known Member
Maybe you will get it?
*Mark 2:2-5 2:11-12
2 And when he returned to Caper′na-um after some days, it was reported that he was at home. 2 And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room for them, not even about the door; and he was preaching the word to them. 3 And they came, bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men. 4 And when they could not get near him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him; and when they had made an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic lay. 5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “My son, your sins are forgiven.”
"11 “I say to you, rise, take up your pallet and go home.” 12 And he rose, and immediately took up the pallet and went out before them all; so that they were all amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!” "
2 Kings 1:2-4
"2 Now Ahazi′ah fell through the lattice in his upper chamber in Samar′ia, and lay sick; so he sent messengers, telling them, “Go, inquire of Ba′al-ze′bub, the god of Ekron, whether I shall recover from this sickness.” 3 But the angel of the Lord said to Eli′jah the Tishbite, “Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samar′ia, and say to them, ‘Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are going to inquire of Ba′al-ze′bub, the god of Ekron?’ 4 Now therefore thus says the Lord, ‘You shall not come down from the bed to which you have gone, but you shall surely die.’” So Eli′jah went."
*Mark 3:1-6
"3 Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand. 2 And they watched him, to see whether he would heal him on the sabbath, so that they might accuse him. 3 And he said to the man who had the withered hand, “Come here.” 4 And he said to them, “Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?” But they were silent. 5 And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out, and immediately held counsel with the Hero′di-ans against him, how to destroy him."
1 Kings 13:1-7
"13 And behold, a man of God came out of Judah by the word of the Lord to Bethel. Jerobo′am was standing by the altar to burn incense. 2 And the man cried against the altar by the word of the Lord, and said, “O altar, altar, thus says the Lord: ‘Behold, a son shall be born to the house of David, Josi′ah by name; and he shall sacrifice upon you the priests of the high places who burn incense upon you, and men’s bones shall be burned upon you.’” 3 And he gave a sign the same day, saying, “This is the sign that the Lord has spoken: ‘Behold, the altar shall be torn down, and the ashes that are upon it shall be poured out.’” 4 And when the king heard the saying of the man of God, which he cried against the altar at Bethel, Jerobo′am stretched out his hand from the altar, saying, “Lay hold of him.” And his hand, which he stretched out against him, dried up, so that he could not draw it back to himself. 5 The altar also was torn down, and the ashes poured out from the altar, according to the sign which the man of God had given by the word of the Lord. 6 And the king said to the man of God, “Entreat now the favor of the Lord your God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored to me.” And the man of God entreated the Lord; and the king’s hand was restored to him, and became as it was before. 7 And the king said to the man of God, “Come home with me, and refresh yourself, and I will give you a reward."
*Mark 3:13-35
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+3:13-35&version=RSV
Exodus 18
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+18&version=RSV
Deuteronomy 1:23
"23 The thing seemed good to me, and I took twelve men of you, one man for each tribe;"
*Mark 4:35-41
"35 On that day, when evening had come, he said to them, “Let us go across to the other side.” 36 And leaving the crowd, they took him with them in the boat, just as he was. And other boats were with him. 37 And a great storm of wind arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that the boat was already filling. 38 But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion; and they woke him and said to him, “Teacher, do you not care if we perish?” 39 And he awoke and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Peace! Be still!” And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. 40 He said to them, “Why are you afraid? Have you no faith?” 41 And they were filled with awe, and said to one another, “Who then is this, that even wind and sea obey him?” "
Jonah 1:4-6
"4 But the Lord hurled a great wind upon the sea, and there was a mighty tempest on the sea, so that the ship threatened to break up. 5 Then the mariners were afraid, and each cried to his god; and they threw the wares that were in the ship into the sea, to lighten it for them. But Jonah had gone down into the inner part of the ship and had lain down, and was fast asleep. 6 So the captain came and said to him, “What do you mean, you sleeper? Arise, call upon your god! Perhaps the god will give a thought to us, that we do not perish.” "
Psalm 107:23-29
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+107:23-29&version=RSV
Larry {the} Gardener
Well-Known Member
Hey guys. I keep coming back to see if a Doctor Who convention had broke out yet.
Tom Robbins has a good take on this subject in Another Roadside Attraction. A very good read. You guys should check it out.
Tom Robbins has a good take on this subject in Another Roadside Attraction. A very good read. You guys should check it out.
FATBOYFRESH
Well-Known Member
"the christ" position or office is NO MYTH... The people who have portrayed him and all akin are myths... Principles of the celestial beings... But the real moshiach is REAL and will make chNges on earth... And not in a rrligious context
Dalek Supreme
Well-Known Member
That's very reassuring. Thanks
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Dalek Supreme
Well-Known Member
Did Timmay study neurology, and ancient history?
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FATBOYFRESH
Well-Known Member
I said nothing abt jesus
Dalek Supreme
Well-Known Member
So what annointed are you talking about?