Capitalism loses

Which economic policy for the 21st century will win out

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UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Dr Kynes said:
it's like arguing with a crazy woman.

Me: "I gave you that $200 to pay the light bill, not buy shoes!"
Her: "Well i wanted you to wash the dishes last thursday and you didnt!!"
Me: "Because i couldnt get the new pump for the dishwasher till friday!"
Her: "Now you're changing the subject!!"

and thats when i realized she was a raging bitch.

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why am i not surprised that kynes is unable to pay his light bill or afford to fix his dishwasher, despite living with half a dozen other family members?
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
SmokeyDan said:
Demonstrably? Maybe you are like bucky.

100 million people living in abject poverty.

Lack of adequate health care a major problem for many people.

Yeah sounds socialist to me.

Certainly China has socialist elements at somewhere. But it's hard to shoehorn them into one type.

They're capitalist in a true sense more so than anyone else in many ways.
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socialism is defined by state control of industry, not "Fairness"

Marx explained that Socialist State would be extremely unfair.
It was part of the plan.

"The Socialist State was, in his view, a necessary step in the process of Communist Revolution.

The Socialist State had several jobs to do, including:
De-Radicalizing the Revolutionaries" (disarming them and ensuring they would stop revolutioning once the Vanguard was in control)
Ensuring that no Counter-Revolutionaries" would disrupt the "Reforms" to follow
"Re-Educating" the proletariat in the glories of "Scientific Marxism" (whether they liked it or not)
Forcibly "Redistributing" the "Means of Production" into the hands of The State (for later disbursement to the proles on that grand day when "Socialism" evolved into "Communism")
Protecting "The State" from threats to the "Revolution" from within and from without
Ensuring that the tyranny of the proletariat and the proles' ignorant selfish desires (for little things like food) dont muck up the grand design
Setting the stage for the eventual glorious "Evolution" into Utopian Communism (which has never ever happened)

china remains a strictly socialist state to this day, all their "reforms" and "capitalism" are just stage dressing for the proles.
 
SmokeyDan

SmokeyDan

Well-Known Member
Dr Kynes said:
socialism is defined by state control of industry, not "Fairness"

Marx explained that Socialist State would be extremely unfair.
It was part of the plan.

"The Socialist State was, in his view, a necessary step in the process of Communist Revolution.

The Socialist State had several jobs to do, including:
De-Radicalizing the Revolutionaries" (disarming them and ensuring they would stop revolutioning once the Vanguard was in control)
Ensuring that no Counter-Revolutionaries" would disrupt the "Reforms" to follow
"Re-Educating" the proletariat in the glories of "Scientific Marxism" (whether they liked it or not)
Forcibly "Redistributing" the "Means of Production" into the hands of The State (for later disbursement to the proles on that grand day when "Socialism" evolved into "Communism")
Protecting "The State" from threats to the "Revolution" from within and from without
Ensuring that the tyranny of the proletariat and the proles' ignorant selfish desires (for little things like food) dont muck up the grand design
Setting the stage for the eventual glorious "Evolution" into Utopian Communism (which has never ever happened)

china remains a strictly socialist state to this day, all their "reforms" and "capitalism" are just stage dressing for the proles.
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You're trying to shoehorn a very complex country into western paradigms. Yeah, there are socialist aspects about China, there are a hell of a lot of capitalistic traits as well. It is ran by a communist party, and they have large corporations that get their way.

China is a little bit of everything and all of nothing.

As well read as you appear to be, Im sure youve heard the phrase "who cares if it is a white cat or a black cat, as long as it catches the mouse?"

Thats a quote from the Chinese premier who followed Mao, I can say his name but dont want to try to spell it.

It is about Capitalism and Communism.

China is not a western country, the resemblance to our economic models are accidental and superficial.

You're not wrong, you're just not correct.

If you ask, is China communist, socialist, or capitalist, the answer has to be simply, yes.
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
That wasn't Marx. Now I know you never read anything he wrote.

That was Lenin. Idiot.

Yet again you belie that you have not even read what you profess so continuously to be an expert in. So now it's Mark Twain, George Orwell and Karl Marx. Who else are you going to pretend to be an expert on before we find out you have not read a single fucking page of their works?
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really?
youre that smart?
that confident?

you went back and read everything Marx ever wrote to make sure he DIDNT say that shit?

funny, it took me just a few minutes of digging to find where i read it some years ago, in Marx's own hand:

"Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat." ~K Marx, in The Critique of the Gotha Program

for most anybody else i would link, but for you... meh.
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
SmokeyDan said:
You're trying to shoehorn a very complex country into western paradigms. Yeah, there are socialist aspects about China, there are a hell of a lot of capitalistic traits as well. It is ran by a communist party, and they have large corporations that get their way.

China is a little bit of everything and all of nothing.

As well read as you appear to be, Im sure youve heard the phrase "who cares if it is a white cat or a black cat, as long as it catches the mouse?"

Thats a quote from the Chinese premier who followed Mao, I can say his name but dont want to try to spell it.

It is about Capitalism and Communism.

China is not a western country, the resemblance to our economic models are accidental and superficial.

You're not wrong, you're just not correct.

If you ask, is China communist, socialist, or capitalist, the answer has to be simply, yes.
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china's resemblance to Marxist Socialism is not accidental or superficial.
Mao adapted the Communist Manifesto and Marx's "philosophy" to suit the nature of chinese society, but he didnt claim he invented it himself, chinese marxists still venerate marx, marx's views are still taught (through the prism of mao) in schools as the only acceptable way of thinking or believing, marx remains a central figure in chinese political discourse.
he just takes a back seat to Mao.

china still maintains the socialist state, single party rule, direct control of the economy through state-owned and state controlled entities, stil venerates mao, stil rejects and suppresses "counter-revolutionaries" and still forcibly redistributes wealth (and even people) on the whim of the apparatichiks.

they are not as purely socialist as they once were, but they are still far closer to Marx's Socialist State than a capitalist society, a republic or a democracy.
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
NoDrama said:
I assume you don't really believe this.
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he might.

the schools teach some far out crazy shit in social studies these days.

i have heard similar assertions from supposedly "learned" men as the set-up for an apologia on china's currency manipulation, massacre of dissidents, protectionist trade policies, etc etc etc.
 
N

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Dr Kynes said:
he might.

the schools teach some far out crazy shit in social studies these days.

i have heard similar assertions from supposedly "learned" men as the set-up for an apologia on china's currency manipulation, massacre of dissidents, protectionist trade policies, etc etc etc.
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Well if he does, then to him it must be the greatest rag to riches story in the history of history. China in 20 years just accidentally became the #1 economy in the world without having to kill any foreign enemies.

Personally, I don't give much credence to pure luck and I think this might be a sign that the USA has seen her heyday and is in decline.
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
He thinks fascism is another form of Marxism. You can't debate with kkkynes, he's only here to troll, post retarded memes and then declare victory where he hasn't achieved one.
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you know i COULD take you by the hand and lead you step by step through the foundation of Marxist Thought, and how it led directly to the "Decocratic Socialism" of Mussolini and his development of the Fascist Ideal to move Marxism ahead in Italy, where old style Marxism just wasnt selling, AGAIN, but you couldnt follow it last time, and you dont seem to be getting any smarter, so why bother.

Mussolini's "New And Improved Marxism, Now With Voting!" version of marxism for use in Italy (and germany too!) wasnt based on cpaitalism, it was based on Marx's own plan, it just went about it more slowly, and without hurling bodies against the barricades.

Marxism isnt a monolith, it comes in many flavours, from trotsky's "Perpetual revolution" to Stalin's Bolshevism, to Mao's Iron Rice Bowl, to Mussolini's harking back to the good ol' days of the Roman Empire, and Hitler's copycat move, invoking an imaginary tuetonic empire that never was.

it's not that hard, it's not that complex, but you seem to have a marked inability to actually read shit, (hence your constant invocation of "TL;DR on any post longer than a bumper sticker...) which is incompatible with your claims of having read every work ever writ on any subject upon which you choose to opine
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
NoDrama said:
Well if he does, then to him it must be the greatest rag to riches story in the history of history. China in 20 years just accidentally became the #1 economy in the world without having to kill any foreign enemies.

Personally, I don't give much credence to pure luck and I think this might be a sign that the USA has seen her heyday and is in decline.
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china's current ascent will be followed by an equally dramatic fall when the proles discover that all this prosperity is being kept by their nominally communist bosses, and the chinese peasants are still living in shit.

for all their furor over "income inequality" in capitalist nations, the left conveniently ignores the vastly larger "income inequality" of socialist and marxist nations like cuba, north korea, vietnam, china, etc etc etc.
 
SmokeyDan

SmokeyDan

Well-Known Member
Dr Kynes said:
china's resemblance to Marxist Socialism is not accidental or superficial.
Mao adapted the Communist Manifesto and Marx's "philosophy" to suit the nature of chinese society, but he didnt claim he invented it himself, chinese marxists still venerate marx, marx's views are still taught (through the prism of mao) in schools as the only acceptable way of thinking or believing, marx remains a central figure in chinese political discourse.
he just takes a back seat to Mao.

china still maintains the socialist state, single party rule, direct control of the economy through state-owned and state controlled entities, stil venerates mao, stil rejects and suppresses "counter-revolutionaries" and still forcibly redistributes wealth (and even people) on the whim of the apparatichiks.

they are not as purely socialist as they once were, but they are still far closer to Marx's Socialist State than a capitalist society, a republic or a democracy.
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It's there, it's an undertone.

Socialism might even be the chicken in their chicken soup, but you're forgetting about their noodles and carrots that separate a nice soup from a clucking barn animal.

You can find what you want to find in china.
 
SmokeyDan

SmokeyDan

Well-Known Member
Dr Kynes said:
china's current ascent will be followed by an equally dramatic fall when the proles discover that all this prosperity is being kept by their nominally communist bosses, and the chinese peasants are still living in shit.

for all their furor over "income inequality" in capitalist nations, the left conveniently ignores the vastly larger "income inequality" of socialist and marxist nations like cuba, north korea, vietnam, china, etc etc etc.
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In 10 years that will all be completed.

They are a paper tiger. We can agree on that.
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
SmokeyDan said:
It's there, it's an undertone.

Socialism might even be the chicken in their chicken soup, but you're forgetting about their noodles and carrots that separate a nice soup from a clucking barn animal.

You can find what you want to find in china.
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granted. you can find almost any economic mode in china.

what political modes can you find in china though?

socialism is not just economic, it is political, and china is still a One Party Country that machineguns dissidents in the streets and maintains a massive network of slave labour camps for those who dare be a little too "free" in their thoughts.

also, slaughtering dissidents like animals and harvesting their organs for sale to the highest bidder.
 
SmokeyDan

SmokeyDan

Well-Known Member
Dr Kynes said:
granted. you can find almost any economic mode in china.

what political modes can you find in china though?

socialism is not just economic, it is political, and china is still a One Party Country that machineguns dissidents in the streets and maintains a massive network of slave labour camps for those who dare be a little too "free" in their thoughts.

also, slaughtering dissidents like animals and harvesting their organs for sale to the highest bidder.
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That may be true in Bejing, but Shanghai and Hong Kong are different stories. Hong Kong has retained much of what made it a special place under British administration.

They have three political systems operating in China. They may have four soon, if Taiwan comes back into the fold. I would expect China would be ready to make huge concessions to the Taiwaneese if they would but return home.

It is hard to define China in western terms, thats why I (and many others) call it a civilization state, and not a nation state.
 
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