Canadian Western Separation

MrToad69

MrToad69

Well-Known Member
Rider101 said:
Your arguing with a greedy sobs who only care about cash in their pockets. These people would happily kill their own for a buck! You know them by their political names like Nazi, Conservative and Republican.

But the fun part is watching them whine and get more and more angry while hating everything including themselves. Karma or instant justice take your pick. :bigjoint:
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Sorry you feel that way rider..Not all Albertan's are as you suggest..I dont see the possibility of any constructive conversation with you..
 
MrToad69

MrToad69

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
I'm not talking so much about my "desires", but about the reality that Alberta faces and why. The transition to new technologies does take time and a couple of decades of that transition time have been stolen by the oil industry and their political corruption. Norway has a multi trillion dollar sovereign wealth fund run by a philosopher. Alberta, along with Texas, Oklahoma and Louisiana doesn't have a pot to piss in because the industry owns the corrupt governments period. The people of these places got and are getting fucked, lower taxes and bigotry were the weapons of choice for those mass screwings. Like those conservative ranchers in Alberta who were able to get the mineral rights thrown in for free along with the grazing rights for a pitance.
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I'm always astonished by how some unfairly put Norway on a pedestal...Imagine how much that sovereign wealth fund would be worth in Norway...if for some reason it had to make transfer payments to Sweden and Finland to the tune of $20 billion a year! Compound that over the past 50 years...and you neglect to mention the wealth in Norway is spread over 5.5 million people...not building roads and infrastructure for 37 million...over a landscape that dwarfs the tiny Scandinavian country
 
Rider101

Rider101

Well-Known Member
MrToad69 said:
DIY

I appreciate the fairness of open dialogue

First things first...I totally agree that the climate is influenced by our burning of fossil fuels...and yes, I believe it has the potential to impact flooding..no question! I never suggested otherwise.

I also hate Trump as he has totally undone the the various institutions and the checks and balances they offer..( and trust me..hate is
Mild in the context I use it here)

As for your reference to Quebec, another metaphor perhaps..Quebec has received over 51% of all equalization payment since the program started...Alberta, receiving just .02% of the pie..in the past that was fine by me, but now that Alberta is suffering where is our support?...think of a parent with multiple children..that parent, continues to buy treats for one child with some sort of a disability...neglecting all but one...Think there might be some resentment? if ever a
time came when the other children needed something only to have the parent say.."Quit your whining!"
People are losing their homes and committing suicide here in Alberta, and rest of Canada chuckles....Part if my issue is that Quebec has had no problem accepting dirty Oil and Gas money all these years but now refuses to help Alberta to get it energy to market now that US is self sufficient

Climate change is problem, I think most on this board will acknowledge it as a
Massive problem. Instead, for some, its easier to use Alberta as a scapegoat thinking that it is up to Alberta energy companies to monitor peoples consumption of fossil fuels as opposed to people taking ownership of their own consumption.

Back to basic disclosure..this is directed at both you and Buck...I've asked this numerous times only to have the questions deflected...

****Does you family own a vehicle..What kind and how many in the family?
****How do you primarily heat your home?

(lets keep this fair and transparent)

I drive a tacoma, my wife drives a Subaru wagon..and Nat gas heats our home.
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Wow that is like slave owners asking abolitionist if they owned cotton cloths and if so they must support slavery.

Get real those are the things that must change, like investing in better insulation and green power like site c hydroelectric rather then subsidizing oil in Alberta. And it is happening much to the anger of those who rely on oil for profit.
 
Rider101

Rider101

Well-Known Member
MrToad69 said:
Sorry you feel that way rider..Not all Albertan's are as you suggest..I dont see the possibility of any constructive conversation with you..
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Are you kidding Alberta is full of morons who blame liberals rather then commodity prices for the down turn in the oil patch. Next you will be sacrificing animals to the oil gods.

What your selling is killing people and threatening our very future that is a fact. You should separate because any real Canadian would be ashamed of being that greedy and lacking any empathy towards your fellow man never mind Canadian.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
MrToad69 said:
*Does you family own a vehicle..What kind and how many in the family?
****How do you primarily heat your home?
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I drive a small fuel efficient car and my home is heated by oil since we don't have a natural gas option here, but we have lots of it offshore. These are individual choices with very limited options, the oil industry limited them through disinformation and corruption. We could be a lot further along the road to having better options otherwise. We cannot change the past, but we should hold those responsible for the current state of affairs to account, it's the choices we make now and into the future that are of importance.

Alberta's woes are not the fault of the liberal government and separation from Canada will only exacerbate those issues and is not a viable option. It's concerns about global climate change that is at the root of these issues, Alberta has to go through BC to get it's oil to the Pacific ocean and asian markets, BC politics are the issue here. Likewise it has to go through the states to sell it in the states and that will most likely be off the table after 2020, the democrats will have environmentalists as it's core base and they don't want "dirty oil". Don't expect an easy time with Manitoba either with plans to build pipelines to the east, I lived there for 20 years and it's not too popular there either. The federal government is the least of Alberta's concerns, others are blocking them and more will do so in the future. This is not necessarily my wish, but the way I see things shaping up, the tar sands will be treated like coal in the not too distant future.

If you agree with climate change you should see the writing on the wall about this too, international investors will see it before anybody else and bitumen recovery is a very dirty, energy, water and capital intensive business. What you, Buck or I want will be of no consequence, policy will determine the economic viability of this and those policies are increasingly being determined by global environmental agendas, we are for the most part just along for the ride.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
MrToad69 said:
DIY

I appreciate the fairness of open dialogue

First things first...I totally agree that the climate is influenced by our burning of fossil fuels...and yes, I believe it has the potential to impact flooding..no question! I never suggested otherwise.

I also hate Trump as he has totally undone the the various institutions and the checks and balances they offer..( and trust me..hate is
Mild in the context I use it here)

As for your reference to Quebec, another metaphor perhaps..Quebec has received over 51% of all equalization payment since the program started...Alberta, receiving just .02% of the pie..in the past that was fine by me, but now that Alberta is suffering where is our support?...think of a parent with multiple children..that parent, continues to buy treats for one child with some sort of a disability...neglecting all but one...Think there might be some resentment? if ever a
time came when the other children needed something only to have the parent say.."Quit your whining!"
People are losing their homes and committing suicide here in Alberta, and rest of Canada chuckles....Part if my issue is that Quebec has had no problem accepting dirty Oil and Gas money all these years but now refuses to help Alberta to get it energy to market now that US is self sufficient

Climate change is problem, I think most on this board will acknowledge it as a
Massive problem. Instead, for some, its easier to use Alberta as a scapegoat thinking that it is up to Alberta energy companies to monitor peoples consumption of fossil fuels as opposed to people taking ownership of their own consumption.

Back to basic disclosure..this is directed at both you and Buck...I've asked this numerous times only to have the questions deflected...

****Does you family own a vehicle..What kind and how many in the family?
****How do you primarily heat your home?

(lets keep this fair and transparent)

I drive a tacoma, my wife drives a Subaru wagon..and Nat gas heats our home.
Click to expand...
043B8C71-3ED4-4361-91D0-4240AC765D0C.png
 
MrToad69

MrToad69

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
I drive a small fuel efficient car and my home is heated by oil since we don't have a natural gas option here, but we have lots of it offshore. These are individual choices with very limited options, the oil industry limited them through disinformation and corruption. We could be a lot further along the road to having better options otherwise. We cannot change the past, but we should hold those responsible for the current state of affairs to account, it's the choices we make now and into the future that are of importance.

Alberta's woes are not the fault of the liberal government and separation from Canada will only exacerbate those issues and is not a viable option. It's concerns about global climate change that is at the root of these issues, Alberta has to go through BC to get it's oil to the Pacific ocean and asian markets, BC politics are the issue here. Likewise it has to go through the states to sell it in the states and that will most likely be off the table after 2020, the democrats will have environmentalists as it's core base and they don't want "dirty oil". Don't expect an easy time with Manitoba either with plans to build pipelines to the east, I lived there for 20 years and it's not too popular there either. The federal government is the least of Alberta's concerns, others are blocking them and more will do so in the future. This is not necessarily my wish, but the way I see things shaping up, the tar sands will be treated like coal in the not too distant future.

If you agree with climate change you should see the writing on the wall about this too, international investors will see it before anybody else and bitumen recovery is a very dirty, energy, water and capital intensive business. What you, Buck or I want will be of no consequence, policy will determine the economic viability of this and those policies are increasingly being determined by global environmental agendas, we are for the most part just along for the ride.
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DIY
This conversation is going in circles...

As said before, I agree the oil and gas issue is not the fault of the liberals, but rather a compilation of precious governments as well as the industry itself...but...the federal government spent tax payer dollars to buy the pipeline and intervene knowing full well what
os at stake for Alberta energy and thus the economy of Canada..When this was going through the courts...the feds made NO effort to defend trans mountain..

You talk of limited choices for heating your home and driving an economic vehicle...How is Alberta any different? Alberta's livelihood has been based on providing energy for Canada as long as I can remember...billions upon billions spent in infrastructure for the benefit of all...and likely to take decades to change over...So what of all the people with industry specific traits in geology and geophyics that have depleted their savings these past years...How do they feed their families? Where are the "Quebec like" handouts from the Canadian Social pool of money we all paid into much like social assistance...for retraining. Going back to school..several kids, a mortgage? How does that happen....see the parallel and lack of options?
You burn oil in your home because you have to (lack of alternatives) Alberta families are merely trying to so the same..work to support theirs. Everybody talks green, but unfortunately were all still tied to it for one reason or another...
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
MrToad69 said:
DIY
This conversation is going in circles...

As said before, I agree the oil and gas issue is not the fault of the liberals, but rather a compilation of precious governments as well as the industry itself...but...the federal government spent tax payer dollars to buy the pipeline and intervene knowing full well what
os at stake for Alberta energy and thus the economy of Canada..When this was going through the courts...the feds made NO effort to defend trans mountain..

You talk of limited choices for heating your home and driving an economic vehicle...How is Alberta any different? Alberta's livelihood has been based on providing energy for Canada as long as I can remember...billions upon billions spent in infrastructure for the benefit of all...and likely to take decades to change over...So what of all the people with industry specific traits in geology and geophyics that have depleted their savings these past years...How do they feed their families? Where are the "Quebec like" handouts from the Canadian Social pool of money we all paid into much like social assistance...for retraining. Going back to school..several kids, a mortgage? How does that happen....see the parallel and lack of options?
You burn oil in your home because you have to (lack of alternatives) Alberta families are merely trying to so the same..work to support theirs. Everybody talks green, but unfortunately were all still tied to it for one reason or another...
Click to expand...
Go get a job at McDonald’s
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
MrToad69 said:
Alberta's livelihood has been based on providing energy for Canada as long as I can remember...billions upon billions spent in infrastructure for the benefit of all...and likely to take decades to change over...So what of all the people with industry specific traits in geology and geophyics that have depleted their savings these past years...How do they feed their families?
Click to expand...
At one time the maritimes were have provinces and Ontario supported the rest of the country for decades when their manufacturing economy was roaring. Alberta started to benefit from oil in a big way when the international price of oil went up dramatically and so did Alberta's fortunes in the 70's when many of my generation started moving there from the maritimes. Trade treaties with the states screwed the maritimes a hundred years ago, NAFTA, then global trade screwed Ontario. Everybody has to retrain these days and multiple careers are the norm everywhere, Canada had one of the best social welfare systems in the world and you'd be singing the blues a lot louder in the States. Transfer payments are part of the Canadian system and the reason Alberta is paying them is because it is making so much money, Alberta is Canada's richest province, but it is also the most greedy. I visited there in the late nineties several times and the lack of government funding for highways was disgusting along with the health care bills for citizens. Blame the greed driven conservatives for fucking over the population of the province and the selfish bastards who elected them.

Quebec gets over 50% of transfer payments because they have the population, unless you think French people are less deserving than English speakers. The federal government created Alberta a province along with Saskatchewan on September 1, 1905 and the federal government can un create it too, if required. You are not the only province or region of Canada to prosper and then fall on hard times, and times in an independant rump state of "Albertastan" would be a lot harder than you could possibly imagine. You're not getting much sympathy here because you don't deserve it, you're still the richest province and I've heard nothing but complaints about having to share some of that wealth. Tax the rich and pull the oil leases from the ranchers and demand the oil royalties back, if you want to collect some easy cash, they got the money through corruption, take it back. Also build and improve some infrastructure during hard times, but you just elected a radical libertarian government, so don't count on getting much from them, unless your connected or already rich. Your arguments are gonna get no sympathy from people in the Maritimes, when I and many of my generation left Nova Scotia for greener pastures, unemployment in Cape Breton was nearly 40% with the closure of the mines, steel plant and the collapse of the fishery, many went to Alberta and are still there. Wait until unemployment tops 30% there and you are on the receiving end of transfer payments, then you might get as much sympathy as the maritimes did from you folks. How did that Alberta slogan go again, "Let those bastards back east freeze in the dark". Housing prices in Alberta must be going through the floor? That is a good indicator of how the local economy is doing.
 
MrToad69

MrToad69

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
At one time the maritimes were have provinces and Ontario supported the rest of the country for decades when their manufacturing economy was roaring. Alberta started to benefit from oil in a big way when the international price of oil went up dramatically and so did Alberta's fortunes in the 70's when many of my generation started moving there from the maritimes. Trade treaties with the states screwed the maritimes a hundred years ago, NAFTA, then global trade screwed Ontario. Everybody has to retrain these days and multiple careers are the norm everywhere, Canada had one of the best social welfare systems in the world and you'd be singing the blues a lot louder in the States. Transfer payments are part of the Canadian system and the reason Alberta is paying them is because it is making so much money, Alberta is Canada's richest province, but it is also the most greedy. I visited there in the late nineties several times and the lack of government funding for highways was disgusting along with the health care bills for citizens. Blame the greed driven conservatives for fucking over the population of the province and the selfish bastards who elected them.

Quebec gets over 50% of transfer payments because they have the population, unless you think French people are less deserving than English speakers. The federal government created Alberta a province along with Saskatchewan on September 1, 1905 and the federal government can un create it too, if required. You are not the only province or region of Canada to prosper and then fall on hard times, and times in an independant rump state of "Albertastan" would be a lot harder than you could possibly imagine. You're not getting much sympathy here because you don't deserve it, you're still the richest province and I've heard nothing but complaints about having to share some of that wealth. Tax the rich and pull the oil leases from the ranchers and demand the oil royalties back, if you want to collect some easy cash, they got the money through corruption, take it back. Also build and improve some infrastructure during hard times, but you just elected a radical libertarian government, so don't count on getting much from them, unless your connected or already rich. Your arguments are gonna get no sympathy from people in the Maritimes, when I and many of my generation left Nova Scotia for greener pastures, unemployment in Cape Breton was nearly 40% with the closure of the mines, steel plant and the collapse of the fishery, many went to Alberta and are still there. Wait until unemployment tops 30% there and you are on the receiving end of transfer payments, then you might get as much sympathy as the maritimes did from you folks. How did that Alberta slogan go again, "Let those bastards back east freeze in the dark". Housing prices in Alberta must be going through the floor? That is a good indicator of how the local economy is doing.
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DIY

A few things to clarify...

When you get simpletons like Buck...who hide behind screens and blurt out insults, without acknowledging facts..it complicates the discussion.

Why do you purport to want a Unified Canada? It's pretty clear some on this board have got everyone in Alberta tarred and feathered with same brush...Regionalism, runs deep as we can see..and yet everyone is waving pom-poms for Canadian unity...Again, doesnt make sense..from our conversation I've learned, Albertan's are far more despised across Canada than I had initially thought...and this isnt about help your fellow man when they're down...It is everyone for themself.

DIY...again you shoot hip and state facts that are incorrect...Quebec has about about 8.5 million people, (approx 25% of the pop)..yet receives 50% of the redistributed funds...so I dont understand your comment "they have the population"..by my math, they receive twice the allocation per capita...

Energy represents over 10% of Canadian GDP, to moth ball it impacts everyone... Lets say it happened, and prices spiked...I get the impression Albertans would get blamed for that too...Honestly, ask yourselves how people would feel if we were all paying $1.70-2 a litre for gas and importing it from the US...nat gas on top of that...paying US companies
Now take a look at the implications of entire economy and the challenge our social programs in Canada would face without that revenue...where would that shortfall come from?
and as for royalties...as to my understanding...right on the surface and those underneath are two different things across Canada...

Anyway, I'll let you and anyone else who wants to get in a word have the last comment to finish this off, as the conversation doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies when it comes to a unified Canada...we've covered it.

Toad
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
MrToad69 said:
DIY

A few things to clarify...

When you get simpletons like Buck...who hide behind screens and blurt out insults, without acknowledging facts..it complicates the discussion.

Why do you purport to want a Unified Canada? It's pretty clear some on this board have got everyone in Alberta tarred and feathered with same brush...Regionalism, runs deep as we can see..and yet everyone is waving pom-poms for Canadian unity...Again, doesnt make sense..from our conversation I've learned, Albertan's are far more despised across Canada than I had initially thought...and this isnt about help your fellow man when they're down...It is everyone for themself.

DIY...again you shoot hip and state facts that are incorrect...Quebec has about about 8.5 million people, (approx 25% of the pop)..yet receives 50% of the redistributed funds...so I dont understand your comment "they have the population"..by my math, they receive twice the allocation per capita...

Energy represents over 10% of Canadian GDP, to moth ball it impacts everyone... Lets say it happened, and prices spiked...I get the impression Albertans would get blamed for that too...Honestly, ask yourselves how people would feel if we were all paying $1.70-2 a litre for gas and importing it from the US...nat gas on top of that...paying US companies
Now take a look at the implications of entire economy and the challenge our social programs in Canada would face without that revenue...where would that shortfall come from?
and as for royalties...as to my understanding...right on the surface and those underneath are two different things across Canada...

Anyway, I'll let you and anyone else who wants to get in a word have the last comment to finish this off, as the conversation doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies when it comes to a unified Canada...we've covered it.

Toad
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Toad I've wasted enough time on this subject, your perspective is greed driven. I don't think Alberta is hard done by compared to other regions and provinces in Canada that experienced far worse at the hands of federal policy. The housing prices in the province are a good indicator of it's true economic condition and you can get houses here very cheaply indeed.

I'd like to see the energy sector in Canada do better for as long as we and the world need it. It's global forces and markets that will determine Alberta's future, I don't think the liberals want to screw over Alberta, they probably dropped the pipeline court case on the advice of legal counsel.
When there is a change in government in the states it will affect the Alberta economy more than any Canadian government ever could
There is an agreed upon formula for working out transfer payments based on a number of factors and Quebec is entitled to the money. A change in regime in venezuela and Iran's vast reserves coming online will probably drop the global price dramatically. A total embargo on Russian oil and cold war level sanctions are another factor along with MDS getting his head chopped off in Saudi Arabia (he backed the wrong side and is a lose cannon). The Americans will want to crash the world price of oil to punish Russia and take care of what they sell outside the embargo. Also a conventional war in the Ukraine involving NATO is a very real possibility after the 2020 American election. After what Russia did to America they will pay a very heavy price for a long time when the national security types are back in the saddle. War in Syria is another possibility too, there is gonna be a price paid for Trump in blood and treasure.
 
Rider101

Rider101

Well-Known Member
UncleBuck said:
Go get a job at McDonald’s
Click to expand...
FYI in Norway jobs at McDonald's start at 24.00 cnd per hour.

As an example, the minimum salary in Norway is as of 2019: 167 NOK (roughly 19.50 USD) for hospitality workers per hour.


Get a hair cut and a real job killing our children all you need to do is work in the oil sands.

Who the fuck wants murders and those who threaten our future in Canada!!! Get the fuck out already Alberta!!! Fuck seperation kick Alberta out of Canada and we can meet the Kyoto accord limits!!! :bigjoint:
 
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BurtMaklin

BurtMaklin

Well-Known Member
MrToad69 said:
DIY

A few things to clarify...

When you get simpletons like Buck...who hide behind screens and blurt out insults, without acknowledging facts..it complicates the discussion.

Why do you purport to want a Unified Canada? It's pretty clear some on this board have got everyone in Alberta tarred and feathered with same brush...Regionalism, runs deep as we can see..and yet everyone is waving pom-poms for Canadian unity...Again, doesnt make sense..from our conversation I've learned, Albertan's are far more despised across Canada than I had initially thought...and this isnt about help your fellow man when they're down...It is everyone for themself.

DIY...again you shoot hip and state facts that are incorrect...Quebec has about about 8.5 million people, (approx 25% of the pop)..yet receives 50% of the redistributed funds...so I dont understand your comment "they have the population"..by my math, they receive twice the allocation per capita...

Energy represents over 10% of Canadian GDP, to moth ball it impacts everyone... Lets say it happened, and prices spiked...I get the impression Albertans would get blamed for that too...Honestly, ask yourselves how people would feel if we were all paying $1.70-2 a litre for gas and importing it from the US...nat gas on top of that...paying US companies
Now take a look at the implications of entire economy and the challenge our social programs in Canada would face without that revenue...where would that shortfall come from?
and as for royalties...as to my understanding...right on the surface and those underneath are two different things across Canada...

Anyway, I'll let you and anyone else who wants to get in a word have the last comment to finish this off, as the conversation doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies when it comes to a unified Canada...we've covered it.

Toad
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Yes, and better than a decade of the Harper Conservatives telling everyone in the west that the maritimes is a wasteland of welfare cases is fueling Alberta's disdain for the east. Couple that with Harper unfairly changing the rules of EI so that people could not support families with the seasonal jobs our economy relies on, such as fishing, farming, and tourism and it became the recipe for disaster we have here today. He did that so we would all flock to Alberta and fill the void in the oil patch, decimating our tax revenue by stealing our young workers, leaving us with an aging population to take care of.

If you really think us maritimers are gonna embrace another Conservative government you either fall and bumped your head or you were born retarded. If we feel like being treated like second class citizens in a sea of Albertan arrogance, we'll give the Conservatives a call.

All I can say is "keep a stiff upper lip, it's going to get worse before it gets better." You're gonna find out how much loyalty the government has when you aren't the cash cow you used to be. They'll likely kick the chair out from under you while the noose tightens. Welcome to poverty, it's gonna suck.

Also, good luck as a Sovereign Nation cleaning up the mess that the bankrupt oil companies are gonna leave behind as demand for the dirtiest oil on the planet trickles to a drip. Google "Alberta's orphan well program" and the devastation left behind in the Ontario nickle mining if you think these piece of shit corporations have your back.

Peace out from Welfareville!
 
MrToad69

MrToad69

Well-Known Member
Burt
There are idiots on all sides the the equation...Heck, I even heard a bunch of BS from my fellow Albertan's in the news stating.."Go home Neufies"..It's an absolute embarrassment, for the rest of us Albertans..to hear such talk..
On behalf of Alberta, I genuinely apologize for those who lack the class and blurt out such ill will to others.
That said, this chat back and forth resonates how people truly feel across Canada ...The problem, as I mentioned, is Canada is so large and diverse...regional economies ebb and flow differently...
Unfortunately, the is so much bad blood across the country from historic events that good will is pretty much shot...
It's pretty clear from the discussions thus far that there is no middle ground for relations within Canada..pretty much like a couple pondering divorce; sitting in counseling...Neither party cares anymore...People wave these idealist pom-poms of a unified country, yet taking their last breaths to finish a sentence...they get a few more jabs and insults
From what I can see...people aren't ready to heal...which is fine, as I dont know the individual stories of how and why they feel the way they do...point is, the pain is still there and not going away, and possibly never will.

That said, to think everything is fine and dandy on the prairies with over 100,000 jobs lost, cuts to education and social programs here locally this past week while Quebec pats itself on the back today with a $4 billion surplus and money for all ( which would have amounted to a significant deficit if not for the transfer payments from the rest of Canada)
People suggest Quebec deserves it because they "have the people".(25% people get over half)..I think people blurt out random comments without really having the facts...or perhaps..yeah there was a prearranged formula..."You mean when economics were far different?"

It seems not to matter to anyone right now as everyone is mad and bitter on both sides with no good will in sight...



Hell..no one even knows what the conversation is about anymore..Pipelines, transfer payments, Liberals, Conservatives..Canada is no longer the country we all prided ourselves...seriously..be honest and think about it...

..Rider and Buck..(save the trailer park comments)..as its pretty clear your insights are no deeper than those bongs in front of you :).

Toad

P.S. Genuine question...I honestly don't know..How is Irving Oil and the family perceived in Eastern Canada?
 
BurtMaklin

BurtMaklin

Well-Known Member
MrToad69 said:
.How is Irving Oil and the family perceived in Eastern Canada?
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They are a major employer. They are extremely shrewd and aggressive at making money, but not so much at loyalty unless there's money to be pilfered. They can be found in their natural habitat, the halls of the maritime legislatures extorting tax dollars (like playing possum on a 25 billion dollar shipbuilding contract, only to graciously accept a forgivable $350,000,000 dollar loan for a brand new ship yard, thanks to the tax payers of NS so they would enter a bid) and access to crown lands for tree mowing all over New Brunswick. It's like lions hunting gazelles. Sick, disabled gazelles.

Other than being a bane on the very economy they support, they're ok I guess.
 
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MrToad69

MrToad69

Well-Known Member
BurtMaklin said:
They are a major employer. They are extremely shrewd and aggressive at making money, but not so much at loyalty unless there's money to be pilfered. They can be found in their natural habitat, the halls of the maritime legislatures extorting tax dollars (like playing possum on a 25 billion dollar shipbuilding contract, only to graciously accept a forgivable $350,000,000 dollar loan for a stand new ship yard, thanks to the tax payers of NS, so they would enter a bid) and access to crown lands for tree mowing all over New Brunswick. It's like lions hunting gazelles. Sick, disabled gazelles.

Other than being a bane on the very economy they support, they're ok I guess.
Click to expand...
So on par with most mining or energy companies...
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
MrToad69 said:
So on par with most mining or energy companies...
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KC Irving moved to Bermuda decades ago to avoid paying Canadian income tax, says all I need to know about them, though Burt seems to know them better than me.

Canada has always had regional issues, it goes with the geography and the economic conditions at any given period of history. We don't have a senate like the Americans to give each province equal statues based on geography, if we did, the four Atlantic provinces would have as many senators as BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba combined. As I said before, the Atlantic provinces were doing just fine in the past and Ontario did better than everybody else, Alberta only started rolling in the cash when the price of oil rose dramatically in the 70's. Between American fracking, shale oil, political change in Venezuela, opening up Iranian reserves and the future American policy of crashing oil prices to damage and punish Putin, I would expect the price of crude is gonna be depressed for some time to come.

International conditions and climate treaties will determine Alberta's future more than Ottawa. It's not like Harper didn't move heaven and earth to get pipelines built for 10 years, it was his absolute top priority and he had no more success than Trudeau. Alberta will be particularly sensitive to the future political situation in the States, both for oil transport and climate change agreements the Americans might sign onto or even initiate. Even if there is a pipeline built into Ontario to move Alberta oil east, global climate change treaties may cause tar sands oil to be treated like coal is now. A pipeline to Thunder Bay from Alberta could use Great lakes tankers to move it anywhere, but oil tankers on the Great lakes would be a pretty hot button environmental issue and a future American government might object.
 
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Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
KC Irving moved to Bermuda decades ago to avoid paying Canadian income tax, says all I need to know about them, though Burt seems to know them better than me.

Canada has always had regional issues, it goes with the geography and the economic conditions at any given period of history. We don't have a senate like the Americans to give each province equal statues based on geography, if we did, the four Atlantic provinces would have as many senators as BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba combined. As I said before, the Atlantic provinces were doing just fine in the past and Ontario did better than everybody else, Alberta only started rolling in the cash when the price of oil rose dramatically in the 70's. Between American fracking, shale oil, political change in Venezuela, opening up Iranian reserves and the future American policy of crashing oil prices to damage and punish Putin, I would expect the price of crude is gonna be depressed for some time to come.

International conditions and climate treaties will determine Alberta's future more than Ottawa. It's not like Harper didn't move heaven and earth to get pipelines built for 10 years, it was his absolute top priority and he had no more success than Trudeau. Alberta will be particularly sensitive to the future political situation in the States, both for oil transport and climate change agreements the Americans might sign onto or even initiate. Even if there is a pipeline built into Ontario to move Alberta oil east, global climate change treaties may cause tar sands oil to be treated like coal is now. A pipeline to Thunder Bay from Alberta could use Great lakes tankers to move it anywhere, but oil tankers on the Great lakes would be a pretty hot button environmental issue and a future American government might object.
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I may be a tad naive but as of now the oil that can be moved is being moved by rail, is that a better option than pipelines? I see rail tanker upon tanker moving through Kingston every hour, past 1000’s of homes. Is this a better option than pipelines? The lack of infrastructure does limit production which is a good thing for the country. We can all agree that the oil industry is subsidized using many methods. One of the most devastating is not being charged true costs associated with cleanup of shut down wells. It’s time to reflect the true cost and have the companies carry this cost. Paying $20 a gallon will quickly motivate a switch to better alternatives and Albertans, all of Canada for that matter, needs to wake up to that.
 
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