California 2012: How do we get the No voters to vote yes?

Ernst

Well-Known Member
Legalizing means keeping the state out of the cannabis trade altogether. Put up a Proposition that doesn't require the theft of taxation and I'll vote for it. Until then, I'll remain happy growing my six beautiful girls with my doctor's letter stapled inside the door to my grow cabinet.
I am not saying we cannot do it all I am saying the brilliance is in splitting them up.
If we are ready for Commerce or even voluntary commerce Great but if we are not ready for commerce there are enough smoker to make us ready for Horticulture so why kill one horse because the other one dies?

A safe first step has to be what benefits the many most. Most want control over the drug problem one way or the other.

Show me a better way?

If Commerce is profits and Horticulture is freedom when does Freedom Equal Profits?
When a majority vote for both.
Which is a catalyst for the other?

I believe we have Commerce already in the form of Black Market and Grey Market Medical.
So where is the freedom for the people to be Non-Commercial people of Cannabis?
When does the freedom kick in even if a remade 10x10 makes it and there are profits a plenty for a few who will some day sell their corporations and retire so those corporations will eventually be owned by just a few.

Who thinks that business will protect the consumer in the end? Has your telephone company called to see if you have food lately?

Commerce is a fact of life but so too Horticulture has been as well.

One gives birth to the other and the other consumes the bounty.

Let us have Horticulture freedom and non-commercial trade in California.

I do this because ready or not Tis the Season.
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
lmfao!!!!!!!! I suspected it was something like that. It's pretty clever how he tried to fool everyone into thinking he was just some middle aged, kooky pothead with a heart of gold and aspirations of making the world a better place for us all. Ha! He might've had us all fooled if he hadn't started being a royal douche and attacking everybody who doesn't share his vision of what legalization should look like. lol!:dunce:
Why would I be struggling at all in this house of love is the question.

Perhaps I just don't feel it? Hug me then friend!
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
So where is the freedom for the people to be Non-Commercial people of Cannabis?
When does the freedom kick in even if a remade 10x10 makes it and there are profits a plenty for a few who will some day sell their corporations and retire so those corporations will eventually be owned by just a few.
Anyone growing more than 10x10 is not doing it for personal use. At that point you're running a small business. I'm fine with that, but what's wrong with having those people form a legal business just like everyone else in America?

You can write a law that protects small businesses and consumers. That's not a problem. What you can't do is protect those people by ignoring them.

Who thinks that business will protect the consumer in the end? Has your telephone company called to see if you have food lately?
And so your anti-business solution is rather than address those concerns, ignore them entirely, removing voters from having a say in that law, the result being corporate lobbyists get to write the law for us!

Oh good. Ernest is here to save us from the big bad corporations. He's going to save us from them by letting them write all the laws that regulate cannabis sales/cultivation. Brilliant. Next you can save the hen house by giving them a fox to guard it.

This is a perfect example of your mental midgetry. You think you're putting the people first when actually what you're doing allows corporate lobbyists to write cannabis law.

Maybe that's you're real agenda. To let the monopolies take over the cannabis industry.
 

DelSlow

Well-Known Member
Why limit dispensaries? Like I said, take a trip to Venice Beach. You'll see cannabis blight. Again, I said this may be OK for Venice Beach, but unlimited dispensaries isn't what I'd want for my neighborhood. Hell man, I want to keep property values up and that's tough enough as it is.
Unless you live in an area zoned for business, I don't think you will have that problem. I'm just saying that the consumer should determine which dispensaries remain open, not the government.
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
Anyone growing more than 10x10 is not doing it for personal use. At that point you're running a small business. I'm fine with that, but what's wrong with having those people form a legal business just like everyone else in America?

You can write a law that protects small businesses and consumers. That's not a problem. What you can't do is protect those people by ignoring them.



And so your anti-business solution is rather than address those concerns, ignore them entirely, removing voters from having a say in that law, the result being corporate lobbyists get to write the law for us!

Oh good. Ernest is here to save us from the big bad corporations. He's going to save us from them by letting them write all the laws that regulate cannabis sales/cultivation. Brilliant. Next you can save the hen house by giving them a fox to guard it.

This is a perfect example of your mental midgetry. You think you're putting the people first when actually what you're doing allows corporate lobbyists to write cannabis law.

Maybe that's you're real agenda. To let the monopolies take over the cannabis industry.
Why must a Man have two plants together? In Horticulture we want to separate plants so we breed the correct ones and avoid mistakes. It takes a whole season to grow seeds in a healthy and organic way.
If we are defined by a square footage then we are not practising Horticulture we are producing produce .
There is a difference with growing for profits and horticulture.

The rest I didn't read..
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
Why would I be struggling at all in this house of love is the question.

Perhaps I just don't feel it? Hug me then friend!
lol! You are too much man! I've tried being friendly and respectful and civil. What did I get for my trouble? Attacked, insulted, browbeaten...........now I'm not even sure if you're being serious or sarcastic. I must admit, you almost had me going. Unfortunately I'm a skeptic by nature so I approach everything with a healthy distrust. I've been burned too many times by people who supposedly only had noble intentions. The reason you are struggling here is because of your own attitude. You reap what you sow. It's no different here than anyplace else.bongsmilie
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
Their it is.
You were around for the prop 19 threads.
Mostly on ICMag.com I was JackTheGrower.. Pulled a few hundred photos off site in protest at the lack of open debate during October 2010.

It's that One Party System (profits) that fucked us all but at least we know the two boundaries for our political reality.
Commerce has failed to score twice.. Time for Horticulture in my opinion.
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
Prove it. I am tired of jacking people off here.
well imagine how the rest of us must feel. we've been watching you play with yourself for quite some time now, posting what are essentially duplicate threads and repeating the same lines over and over again.

the proof, if you really care, is in the passage of 215 and its reference to the necessity of distribution. did anyone think for a moment that weed was going to magically appear at each patient's doorstep? of course not. though the reference was vague, it was apparent from the outset that profit driven concerns would be filling that need and that certainly didn't scare off the necessary voters. the electorate may be a mass of ignorant fools, but they are still intelligent enough to know that with legalization will come commerce.
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
lol! You are too much man! I've tried being friendly and respectful and civil. What did I get for my trouble? Attacked, insulted, browbeaten...........now I'm not even sure if you're being serious or sarcastic. I must admit, you almost had me going. Unfortunately I'm a skeptic by nature so I approach everything with a healthy distrust. I've been burned too many times by people who supposedly only had noble intentions. The reason you are struggling here is because of your own attitude. You reap what you sow. It's no different here than anyplace else.bongsmilie
Not so much that we are separate no. We share this cauldron of political discussion and for it to get mix up as it simmers over time one or more of us has to be the "Stir" @Roll-it-up.. That is a bit of jail house humor ...
Seriously we are just fighting about me stirring the pot since I am basically a Party Crasher to some here.

Our anger is not against another it is the recognition of ignorance in ourselves and failing to take responsibility.

It's words on a screen when Google hits them..
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
well imagine how the rest of us must feel. we've been watching you play with yourself for quite some time now, posting what are essentially duplicate threads and repeating the same lines over and over again.

the proof, if you really care, is in the passage of 215 and its reference to the necessity of distribution. did anyone think for a moment that weed was going to magically appear at each patient's doorstep? of course not. though the reference was vague, it was apparent from the outset that profit driven concerns would be filling that need and that certainly didn't scare off the necessary voters. the electorate may be a mass of ignorant fools, but they are still intelligent enough to know that with legalization will come commerce.
Is this not an electronic community?
Then I am just being a contributing member.
It is not an easy subject to debate/ I know I was so disappointed at the lack of free speech in October 2012 on ICMag,com that I yanked my accounts.
It is an illusion that the struggle went away when November 2010 passed..
This the start of the 2012 Election cycle.. Are you suggesting the politics forum should not get political?

Let me know..
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
Why must a Man have two plants together? In Horticulture we want to separate plants so we breed the correct ones and avoid mistakes.
No objections from me on that.

It takes a whole season to grow seeds in a healthy and organic way.
No it doesn't. A lot of people do true indoor organics. But I've got no objection to people growing outdoors.

If we are defined by a square footage then we are not practising Horticulture we are producing produce .
You're a crackpot. That statement proves it.

There is a difference with growing for profits and horticulture.
So growing a 10x10 or less garden = profits! but unlimited scale growing in residential neighborhoods = "horticulture". Got it!

You're not nearly as clever as you think you are. Everyone sees right through that bs. You've been exposed for the fraud you are. You've lost all credibility here. Good work.
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
Are you suggesting the politics forum should not get political?
what i'm suggesting is that you actually answer your opposition instead of merely repeating this same tired mantra. we get it, you despise the profit motivation of those who have succeeded at the game. you object to the corporate take-over of the marketplace that would be created by legalization. you believe that we should ease into legalization by reinforcing the existing black market and expanding on the alaskan model. you seem to think that the rest of the electorate is of a like mind, but that just isn't the case. the people thrive on commerce, it is the life blood of society and the means by which we all gain access to what we cannot create ourselves. it isn't commerce that scares the people, it is the decades of propaganda and the fear of haphazard regulation that worries many of them and keeps them from allowing us all to regain this right to choose. it is the loss of an avenue of unrestricted trade for others that keeps them from allowing access to everyone.

you've asked how we can turn the nays into yeas and you've been answered. it isn't by turning our happy little herb into the exclusive domain of the growing elite, but by making the benefits to the society as a whole as obvious as possible and assuring them that the potential for abuse is minimized as much as possible. we reverse those nays by handing them a golden goose and convincing them, through stringent regulation, that their children won't be overcome by the resulting marketing frenzy. we convince them by eradicating the need for a black market at all and placing the sales and distribution aspects of this new marketplace into the hands of a well regulated business community. of course it isn't easy, reversing the tide seldom is, and it certainly isn't going to happen without proving to the ignorant masses that we aren't all just a bunch of drug crazed hippies, that we can turn this illegal trade into a legitimate and productive part of society.
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
what i'm suggesting is that you actually answer your opposition instead of merely repeating this same tired mantra. we get it, you despise the profit motivation of those who have succeeded at the game. you object to the corporate take-over of the marketplace that would be created by legalization. you believe that we should ease into legalization by reinforcing the existing black market and expanding on the alaskan model. you seem to think that the rest of the electorate is of a like mind, but that just isn't the case. the people thrive on commerce, it is the life blood of society and the means by which we all gain access to what we cannot create ourselves. it isn't commerce that scares the people, it is the decades of propaganda and the fear of haphazard regulation that worries many of them and keeps them from allowing us all to regain this right to choose. it is the loss of an avenue of unrestricted trade for others that keeps them from allowing access to everyone.

you've asked how we can turn the nays into yeas and you've been answered. it isn't by turning our happy little herb into the exclusive domain of the growing elite, but by making the benefits to the society as a whole as obvious as possible and assuring them that the potential for abuse is minimized as much as possible. we reverse those nays by handing them a golden goose and convincing them, through stringent regulation, that their children won't be overcome by the resulting marketing frenzy. we convince them by eradicating the need for a black market at all and placing the sales and distribution aspects of this new marketplace into the hands of a well regulated business community. of course it isn't easy, reversing the tide seldom is, and it certainly isn't going to happen without proving to the ignorant masses that we aren't all just a bunch of drug crazed hippies, that we can turn this illegal trade into a legitimate and productive part of society.

You are manufacturing you terms of argument.

For a smart poster this is rather stupid. "you despise the profit motivation of those who have succeeded at the game. This is an assumption.
Here is another whacked out manufactured argument "our happy little herb into the exclusive domain of the growing elite"

Pass all the business law you want but do it separately.
California is against out right legalizing Commerce but they are not against the people.

Why shoot the People horse when the Commerce horse dies? Lets pull the freedom wagon with the People horse since we know California voted for Prop 215 and not the two prop's 19
It's not an agenda it just points out the causal relationship that has evolved under cannabis prohibition.
If the Causal Relationship is defined as Pimp ( commerce ) and Prostitute ( freedom ) then I and you are the Johns. Do we really need the Pimp to have a good time or is it hat the Pimp needs us to have a good time?
So let us legalize good times and see what we can do for the pimp separately.

Why ruin a good time for everyone because the Pimp is unhappy? After all the Pimp only cares about the Money not the freedom to have a good time.

Now on to the second comment.. I am only making the effort to counter two of your points since I am a busy man.

There is no Growing Elite. If all the people have equal rights then it's called freedom.
Growing Elite is when only a few (Medical growers) have freedom.

So for a smart man you know how to craft the most ignorant challenges.

And you are still in the Cannabis closet because you are afraid.
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
You are manufacturing you terms of argument.

For a smart poster this is rather stupid. "you despise the profit motivation of those who have succeeded at the game. This is an assumption.
Here is another whacked out manufactured argument "our happy little herb into the exclusive domain of the growing elite"

Pass all the business law you want but do it separately.
California is against out right legalizing Commerce but they are not against the people.

Why shoot the People horse when the Commerce horse dies? Lets pull the freedom wagon with the People horse since we know California voted for Prop 215 and not the two prop's 19
It's not an agenda it just points out the causal relationship that has evolved under cannabis prohibition.
If the Causal Relationship is defined as Pimp ( commerce ) and Prostitute ( freedom ) then I and you are the Johns. Do we really need the Pimp to have a good time or is it hat the Pimp needs us to have a good time?
So let us legalize good times and see what we can do for the pimp separately.

Why ruin a good time for everyone because the Pimp is unhappy? After all the Pimp only cares about the Money not the freedom to have a good time.

Now on to the second comment.. I am only making the effort to counter two of your points since I am a busy man.

There is no Growing Elite. If all the people have equal rights then it's called freedom.
Growing Elite is when only a few (Medical growers) have freedom.

So for a smart man you know how to craft the most ignorant challenges.

And you are still in the Cannabis closet because you are afraid.
The pimp gotta get his or else he's gonna have to smack a ho!:evil:
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
You are manufacturing your terms of argument.
puh-leeze, i need manufacture nothing. from your proposition that we put a cap on personal wealth to your insistence on separating "commerce" from "the people", your every post reeks of the quasi-marxist dogma that despises the very concept of success. even as you accuse me of merely assuming your intentions, you identify business as the pimp, the abuser, and the freedom of the people as the prostitute, the working man abused by commerce. you insist there is no "growing elite", refusing to admit that not everyone is capable of or has the room to grow. this is the very basis of an elite you claim does not exist. i try to explain that the voters were unafraid of the commerce involved in medical distribution and you just blow it off, insisting that commerce is the sticking point in legalization and repeating the latest version of your favorite mantra.

why don't you quit this passive/aggressive bullshit and face the situation honestly? with each post you convince a few more of our members that you're just another crackpot with an axe to grind. go ahead and call my challenges ignorant, even as you refuse to face them. i was weened on discussions such as this, straight from my mother's teat to the pseudo-intellectual arguments of my minister grandfather, and i have yet to find anything but hot air coming from your direction.

And you are still in the Cannabis closet because you are afraid.
are you still harping on this "give us your real name" crap? well get over it. i was involved in my first grow in '72 and have been growing off and on ever since. not once has anyone involved in my grows ever been busted and only once was my crop discovered. do you really think i'm going to endanger that record by giving my real name in a public forum? you're damn right i'm afraid. i'm no licensed care giver and i refuse to commit the fraud necessary to get a med card, so i'm going to keep my half-dozen ladies safe in my closet until we manage to regain our right of choice.
 
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