Attention Atheist

OK, I at least got the central notions.

"Anyway my question is if god is not the creator of the heavens and the earth & you dont believe scientist big bang, ice asteroid theory then how in the hell did everything come about?Do you seriously think that the universe just accidently created everything & everyone for no reason? You cant just ignore reality your whole life & if you can I feel terribly sorry that your children must be raised upon lies. and Please id love to hear your bullshit explanations"

But I think I read some replies before I chime in.

Oh hell yea...this is good thread. One of the better I have read on any forum or discussion. Some very, very deep and intelligent people here!

Well, its getting late and barring a complete alnighter. I will try to address some beginning replies.

Who is the creator. Well thats a question that probably will be asked until the end. But, before the end and while we are still up and talking I would let that be answered(at a later date) and go on to perception. "Why isnt this just all something that is perceived in my own mind". Well, thats another very good question and i can actually give it a wack. My belief of why this is not just a perceived reality viewed through me alone is that:

1) In that reality can be changed by forces and objects outside of my mind (ie, drugs, inspiration, debate which radically alters what i thought I knew or percieved). If I check these changes with others, I can re-affirm the changes outside of my own perception.
2) I cannot change what others percieve through my thoughts or events that occur in my mind.

Ok next reply. Yea, the 2,000 year old theory or idea (or doggma) that we have right now is fairly bogus. As I grew up and learn about this I didn't have a hard time with the simple notion that there was some god or creator. Then, I didn't really have a problem with the notion that he sent his son down to teach love, helping those that need help and healing and helping the sick. But as I studied and learned that at one point God gave a certain group a certain piece of land and declared only them to be chosen among humans, I jumped ship right there and then. But I have still kept an open mind and have not really formulated any real alternatives even today.

I am a scientist, so I do study, follow and feel good with the general notions of evolution. And I am not closed as to other things that might be out there. Lately I have been doing a little self reading on the http://www.temple420.org/ about the idea that it was possible that the Abrahamic religions were actually taken from Hindu worship. When looking at geographical names and linguistic connections, a strong case can be brought that Abraham was Brahma, the Hindu Vedic god of creation. Sarah, Abraham's wife in the Jewish mythology, was Sarasvati, Hindu Vedic goddess of knowledge and wisdom, and Brahma's consort. It seems also that ancient writers of Judah then added in local gods and goddesses to mesh it with what they already believed. There is a poster on temple420 that was very good at sharing this idea but the site closed its forum because of massive spamming and are now working to flush out and separate spam.

But this idea doesn't lead me back to creator beliefs, it just helps me to get past that major turn off of Judaic-Christian theory which so badly stung me off years before. I still am mostly focused on evolution but with an open mind over all.

But I am subbed here and will look forward to many good discussions here
Stick

Organized religion could easily be just something that helps mankind (particularity early man and early society) with internal struggle, death, fairness and hope. As we speak of Asian/Indian religions we go far, far back to early modern man. And just an hour ago i first chimmed in on what I felt regarding my observation of growing plants (playing God) and how a burst of nutrients can radically drive growth and the evolving of the species and that could have easily happened to mankind and man's brain development. Cracker, responded quickly that

"I think that is very true. Mans brain jumped a gear when he first left the forest and hit the open plains. Of course the plains had to develop first... everything is connected.

The second big jump occurred along the Euphrates river systems...and what eventually became known as "the fertile crescent". This was a Mediterranean type of climate and ran west to east from France to China"

So we have early modern man developing along this fertile crescent and it meshes with my thoughts of these early people bringing with them their notion of a creator which helped them deal with the immense pains and struggle of early development( In a few prior posts, I personally described these pains and struggles as the things that lead me to believe that this world is not just a perception created in my own mind).

As they brought with them the notion of a creator (and worship of that creator) it changed and evolved to fit the needs of the people who it served. But then, people began to twist it and use it to fit their own selfish needs. This was the major mutation that probably caused most to question it deeply (not just eastern or western religion but the idea of a creator in general). I feel that to be the case because the outcome of the mutation has cause much of ills of present day mankind (wars, weapons of mass destruction, global power struggles, political extremes, sharing wealth/offering healthcare to only certain populations) and most importantly for me the forced conversion of a beautiful and harmonious indigenous peoples into the ways of some totally foreign and corrupted religion (the every epidemy of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden). Man can be innately corrupt and cruel, so I do not attribute this mutation of religion in Eden to be of a Gods or a devils hands. I think it was of the people's hands whom held power at that time and place. Then, they documented the mutation as devine and passed it onto unknowing future societies.

stick

And I really would have a hard time arguing with Buddists and Hundu worshippers because before this mutation occured, they had an very good notion of what might sway me to believe that a creator exists. And if an American Indian were to post an argument and argued with the religion or worship they had before Colombus arrived, I would also have a hard time explaining to them there was no creator.

I am coming from my own experiences and my own observations, because that's really all I have to truly base an argument.

So I hope that will help color in another page of the journal of life and whether there is a God. I will be moving forward with the rest of you good people on the thread and look forward to all ideas!
stick

To state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.

Since Darwin's time, massive additional evidence has accumulated supporting the fact of evolution--that all living organisms present on earth today have arisen from earlier forms in the course of earth's long history. Indeed, all of modern biology is an affirmation of this relatedness of the many species of living things and of their gradual divergence from one another over the course of time. Since the publication of The Origin of Species, the important question, scientifically speaking, about evolution has not been whether it has taken place. That is no longer an issue among the vast majority of modern biologists. Today, the central and still fascinating questions for biologists concern the mechanisms by which evolution occurs.

In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it?

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.
Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.
Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.


The honest scientist, like the philosopher, will tell you that nothing whatever can be or has been proved with fully 100% certainty, not even that you or I exist, nor anyone except himself, since he might be dreaming the whole thing. Thus there is no sharp line between speculation, hypothesis, theory, principle, and fact, but only a difference along a sliding scale, in the degree of probability of the idea. When we say a thing is a fact, then, we only mean that its probability is an extremely high one: so high that we are not bothered by doubt about it and are ready to act accordingly. Now in this use of the term fact, the only proper one, evolution is a fact. For the evidence in favor of it is as voluminous, diverse, and convincing as in the case of any other well established fact of science concerning the existence of things that cannot be directly seen, such as atoms, neutrons, or solar gravitation ....
So enormous, ramifying, and consistent has the evidence for evolution become that if anyone could now disprove it, I should have my conception of the orderliness of the universe so shaken as to lead me to doubt even my own existence. If you like, then, I will grant you that in an absolute sense evolution is not a fact, or rather, that it is no more a fact than that you are hearing or reading these words.


- H. J. Muller, "One Hundred Years Without Darwin Are Enough" School Science and Mathematics 59, 304-305. (1959) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism op cit.

CrackerJax said:

He's just young...he doesn't know any better.

Now he does....maybe.

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Hmm. of topic but i learned something as well. It always has erggged me to hear people to refer to pot as dope. I take dope to be something that enters through a needle. Thnaks for the clarification.

Most excellent reply.

why is this post still going?

420HAZE420 said:

Hey all you ignorant atheist out there, Ive tried getting an answer to my question on your athiest thread but all of you just answer with some nonsense that has nothing to prove or do with the situation.Anyway my question is if god is not the creator of the heavens and the earth & you dont believe scientist big bang, ice asteroid theory then how in the hell did everything come about?Do you seriously think that the universe just accidently created everything & everyone for no reason? You cant just ignore reality your whole life & if you can I feel terribly sorry that your children must be raised upon lies. and Please id love to hear your bullshit explanations

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for some its easier to be ignorant than to actually try make sense of the foray however its not their time to understand they know not even the questions to be asked.. and this will only happen when they ready to understand so literally be thankfull that its your time u deserve everything that comes at you in life s they re encompasin emmanations of your state of grace and your reflections on life designed to feed the intrigue..
we undersand and our truths are ever changing as yur probable perspective gleams and gains more..but to doubt the mastery in the building blocks that make whats solid around us means first that your missing the over all mastery that even allowed these elements to come into being that orphic soup itself needed fertility and ideal conditions all theses building blocks where just that for what needed to come into being; surely intelligent design.!! however i belive the same predominating intelligence can be found in the smallest instances in everyday life u just need eyes to see it...And youl keep seeing it till you see it for what it is... God is a compassionate perspective instigating u in every way everyday.its whether you recognise it or not..

DobermanGuy said:

Hmm. of topic but i learned something as well. It always has erggged me to hear people to refer to pot as dope. I take dope to be something that enters through a needle. Thnaks for the clarification.

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Yah..his explanation was correct. I can still remember very clearly walking down 5th avenue in NYC during a YIPPIE rally (anyone remember them?) and everybody walking together smoking weed and yelling "THE POPE SMOKES DOPE" over and over again. It was one of the accepted terms of weed back in the 60's and 70's.... and I still consider it to be NOT negative.
I also say "wicked" a lot....wonder if I should run that by the stoner word committee?

MaxNarco said:

why is this post still going?

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good question....G*D question.

Padawanbater2 said:

You have gotta be fuckin' kidding me.



Ask ANY SCIENTIST, evolution is a fact. The layman doesn't understand what the fuck "theory" means in science, and apparently you don't either.

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The truth hurts eh? It is adaptation.Get it through your thick skull.

The day you show me a half ass ape human is the day evoution becomes fact.Do you see dogs evolving into birds?

No they simply adapt to their surroundings making very small changes along the way over huge periods of time.
Cats didnt wake up one day and say hey im gonna evolve into a dog.

420ezah420 said:

The truth hurts eh? It is adaptation.Get it through your thick skull.

The day you show me a half ass ape human is the day evoution becomes fact.Do you see dogs evolving into birds?

No they simply adapt to their surroundings making very small changes along the way over huge periods of time.
Cats didnt wake up one day and say hey im gonna evolve into a dog.

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Dude...

Have you ever studied evolution? Like in a high school or college class?

Be honest.

420... ur so wrong it isn't even funny anymore.... Paddy has not been rebuked at all and the scientific theory of evolution is indeed intact.

Religion has made no progress what so ever in answering ANY questions of our true origin and history. nay, they DENY it. And you are a sad example of just that.

Evoultion is a fact? HAHAHAHAHA ROFLMAO are you serious? You were just playing right? Cuz if you really think evolution is even remotely close to being a proven fact you have done lil research and are just another follower aka liberal clone...ah, to be a puppet....

Actually there is MORE SCIENTIFIC EVIDEVCE DISPROVING evolution than there is proof in it's favor. Even Darwin turned to Christ and said he was wrong but by then the people had their excuse and there was no way they were giving it up....

Like with the cells we "engineered", they were like PC's with no windows program, not to mention that which bonds in salt water disolves in salt water so it would have just fallen apart killing the prebiotic soup theorey....not to mention the cells didn't do anything. There is more proof of an intelligent designer that any other explaination. Like humans, we have over 100,000 simultaneous reactions that if they weren't perfect we would die, so to have that many perfect events happen randomly or even gradually is statistically and theoretically implausable, especially contradicting our theoreys of how old the sun is, when it would take several trillion times that for such a compplex randomality to even occour, though it is next to impossible.

Funny there has been no proof of evolution, only adaptation....like color changes in lizards, but that is insignificant.

I used to care a lot about the subject and I think there is something like 400,000 scientifically proven reasons why evolution couldn't have happened....though it keeps growing on a day by day basis...people just want to justify doing whatever their carnal flesh desire and they need justification whereas people used to at least admit they knew what they were doing was wrong, now everything is natural...what ever happened to doing the right thing just because? I know planting seeds works and everything you do plants a sed and all seeds grow grops over time, whether the fruit is good or bad is determined by you. Because I put God 1st in a short time He took me from broken and in despair to having everything I want (wife, house, 6 figure income,etc) So I have no doubt God is real...I bounced around to all the major religions and even was a fake Christian for a while but when I kept reading the Bible and I had a God experience and was healed I couldn't deny it so He got my attention. The more I applied what it said and set aside my eclectic beliefs in exchange for taking it at face value and everything promised would happen. God is about freedom through Christ, the rules are just to warn you of consequences but you can still do what you want without fear of hell if saved...do some serious research on evolution....you can find a lot of stuff...pathlights has quotes from 200+ scientists making fun of evolution as a big joke or a fairy tale for adults, etc...

Nice alias.... einstein ur not.

AlterdImage777 said:

Evoultion is a fact? HAHAHAHAHA ROFLMAO are you serious? You were just playing right? Cuz if you really think evolution is even remotely close to being a proven fact you have done lil research and are just another follower aka liberal clone...ah, to be a puppet....

Actually there is MORE SCIENTIFIC EVIDEVCE DISPROVING evolution than there is proof in it's favor. Even Darwin turned to Christ and said he was wrong but by then the people had their excuse and there was no way they were giving it up....

Like with the cells we "engineered", they were like PC's with no windows program, not to mention that which bonds in salt water disolves in salt water so it would have just fallen apart killing the prebiotic soup theorey....not to mention the cells didn't do anything. There is more proof of an intelligent designer that any other explaination. Like humans, we have over 100,000 simultaneous reactions that if they weren't perfect we would die, so to have that many perfect events happen randomly or even gradually is statistically and theoretically implausable, especially contradicting our theoreys of how old the sun is, when it would take several trillion times that for such a compplex randomality to even occour, though it is next to impossible.

Funny there has been no proof of evolution, only adaptation....like color changes in lizards, but that is insignificant.

I used to care a lot about the subject and I think there is something like 400,000 scientifically proven reasons why evolution couldn't have happened....though it keeps growing on a day by day basis...people just want to justify doing whatever their carnal flesh desire and they need justification whereas people used to at least admit they knew what they were doing was wrong, now everything is natural...what ever happened to doing the right thing just because? I know planting seeds works and everything you do plants a sed and all seeds grow grops over time, whether the fruit is good or bad is determined by you. Because I put God 1st in a short time He took me from broken and in despair to having everything I want (wife, house, 6 figure income,etc) So I have no doubt God is real...I bounced around to all the major religions and even was a fake Christian for a while but when I kept reading the Bible and I had a God experience and was healed I couldn't deny it so He got my attention. The more I applied what it said and set aside my eclectic beliefs in exchange for taking it at face value and everything promised would happen. God is about freedom through Christ, the rules are just to warn you of consequences but you can still do what you want without fear of hell if saved...do some serious research on evolution....you can find a lot of stuff...pathlights has quotes from 200+ scientists making fun of evolution as a big joke or a fairy tale for adults, etc...

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...okay, let's get off of the topic of evolution for awhile....prove god exist. Or give me any evidence that god exist BESIDES SCRIPTURE. See, your brain is pretty much like the harddrive in your computer....it only knows what is pumped into it, and obviously....we see what has been pumped into your head. I wish everyone would just stop already with religion....come up with something else. I mean, there is NO EVIDENCE of your FAITH! ...bottom line. ...and btw, what makes any religion right? ...you could be wrong, and " the others " could be right. Your personal experience with "god", just as many others, are nonobservable by science.


...the next time your in the hospital, tell the doc that you don't believe in science....tell'em you want "god" to heal you.

CrackerJax said:

420... ur so wrong it isn't even funny anymore.... Paddy has not been rebuked at all and the scientific theory of evolution is indeed intact.

Religion has made no progress what so ever in answering ANY questions of our true origin and history. nay, they DENY it. And you are a sad example of just that.

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Hold on a second.Were you not just telling dirty pad that evolution is theory?

If your post made any sense whatsoever maybe id be able to reply.

Padawanbater2 said:

Dude...

Have you ever studied evolution? Like in a high school or college class?

Be honest.

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You probably wont believe me but I have read book after book after book.

Anyone in high school or college is just as narrow minded as you.All that they know for sure is that there is a theory.


When you read so much from both sides of the argument it is impossible not to seperate the bullshit from common sense.

A scientific theory is the strongest possible classification.

Try cracking a book sometime.

trichlone fiend said:

...okay, let's get off of the topic of evolution for awhile....prove god exist. Or give me any evidence that god exist BESIDES SCRIPTURE. See, your brain is pretty much like the harddrive in your computer....it only knows what is pumped into it, and obviously....we see what has been pumped into your head. I wish everyone would just stop already with religion....come up with something else. I mean, there is NO EVIDENCE of your FAITH! ...bottom line. ...and btw, what makes any religion right? ...you could be wrong, and " the others " could be right. Your personal experience with "god", just as many others, are nonobservable by science.


...the next time your in the hospital, tell the doc that you don't believe in science....tell'em you want "god" to heal you.

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Maybe some day you will realize that not everything needs a scientific explanation.

It blows my mind how day after day you believe in something that HAS NOT, AND NEVER WILL BE PROVEN.

EVOLUTION & THE BIG BANG THEORY WILL NEVER BE FACT.(Because as the smart ones know is a pile of bullshit excuses, and your too damn proud to acccept reality.)

WTF IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?