Atheism

growwwww

growwwww

Well-Known Member
doc111 said:
I don't know if there is or isn't a god. I tend to believe in something greater than myself, call it what you want. This heated debate about whether god exists or not is seriously comical. A lot of you atheists are as militant in your views as some christians or muslims I know. It seems to me that both sides tend to be somewhat closed minded. One side says "There is a god and all those who don't believe are damned to an eternity of torment and anguish." The other side says "There is no god and anybody who believes in one must be a simple minded savage." I was raised into a secular family who believes in god and goes to church on occasion. They aren't fanatics or zealots by a long shot. I decided long ago that I would make up my own mind about what I believe. I think, like most of you atheists, that organized religion is full of hucksters and snake oil salesmen. I don't subscribe to one. But I feel like there is an intelligence that exists which we mere mortals cannot perceive. Not only can we perceive it we can't even imagine it. I don't think it judges or hates. I believe that it just "IS". Call me new age or an existentialist or what the hell ever. Our arrogance as a species is constantly getting us into trouble and I try to keep my ego in check by reminding myself that god may or may not exist. We just don't know. Faith is a very abstract concept for humans. Religion is the opiate of the masses, and if it gives an individual comfort I see no problem with it. When anything, be it government or religion, tries to impose it's will through force.......it's a bad thing. Religion is a mask which some people hide behind in order to further some sort of agenda. We all have agendas.:peace:
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I fucking well hope the athiests are as militant as the christians and whatever - dont really understand that, and if i do, i dont think its a problem.

Think about what you are actually saying though, about the closed/open minded thing. Think and look up the "militant" atheists. Tell me are they close minded...really :S
Dont just look at shit initially, but pick up a few books of Dan Dennett, Douglas Adams, Aldous Huxley, Richard Dawkins....Tell me they are as close minded at the Miliant Christians/Jews/Islamic people. Clearly represent this to me, i truly dont understand.

Peace
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
growwwww said:
I fucking well hope the athiests are as militant as the christians and whatever - dont really understand that, and if i do, i dont think its a problem.

Think about what you are actually saying though, about the closed/open minded thing. Think and look up the "militant" atheists. Tell me are they close minded...really :S
Dont just look at shit initially, but pick up a few books of Dan Dennett, Douglas Adams, Aldous Huxley, Richard Dawkins....Tell me they are as close minded at the Miliant Christians/Jews/Islamic people. Clearly represent this to me, i truly dont understand.

Peace
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.......and you probably never will.
 
morgentaler

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
The argument here, however much it bounces around, isn't "Is there a god?".

It's "Why do you continue to worship/believe/state-as-truth X religion/deity without no supporting evidence" which is countered by "Why do we need any evidence. As long as I believe it, it's true."

The continued insistence that god(s) are real is backed by a religious text and "the evidence is out there if you just look for it". If the evidence is there, why isn't anyone coming forward with it? The lack of comprehension of the word 'evidence' seems to be a stumbling block for some people. eg. "If you just open up your heart God shows himself to you." is not uncommon as 'proof' or 'evidence' for a deity.

If I tell you that flying cars are real, will you accept my claim that "If you just open up your heart they will show themselves to you?"

Didn't think so :P
 
growwwww

growwwww

Well-Known Member
doc111 said:
.......and you probably never will.
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I use to be in a faith school and use to admire the religious people. We use to go on trips to really cool places and whatever. Until, my fascination with science/drugs came along. My own personal research debunked and de-bullshitted most of what these people who i thought were really cool had to say. WHy would you say never? its more like unlikely...In probable...
You are shiftily quoting shit here...I think its the first chapter in Richard Dawkins book, God Delussion, Which talks about how quotes are used so sneakily and misleading. It aint no fun to be done to :(
 
morgentaler

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
It doesn't hurt to get faith-based opponents a little angry/worked-up too.
If they actually get mad enough to start looking for ammo to support their beliefs, they're thinking. When you're operating on the power of faith alone, you're no longer thinking. You're just absorbing what someone else has dictated to you.

Faith is why you end up with chain letters in your inbox from relatives who want you to make money off Bill Gates by forwarding email.

It's also why YouTube videos on how to make water or vegetables glow in the dark with common things like sugar and vinegar are popular.
People just see it and go "Wow! They told me it was real and now I have to show everyone!"
And then their 10 year old kid repeats the experiment and it doesn't work. Multiple times. Double checking the directions.
So, should they hold to their faith that the glow in the dark tomato was true and their kid is a moron? Or should they consider the fact that their child sought empirical knowledge of the claim that was presented and found it to be false?

Of course the slick religions add the caveat: "If you question us, we will make you suffer in this life or the next."

Wait till the guy who posted the tomato video finds that 10 year old and kicks his ass.
 
P

PadawanBater

Guest
doc111 said:
I don't know if there is or isn't a god. I tend to believe in something greater than myself, call it what you want. This heated debate about whether god exists or not is seriously comical. A lot of you atheists are as militant in your views as some christians or muslims I know. It seems to me that both sides tend to be somewhat closed minded. One side says "There is a god and all those who don't believe are damned to an eternity of torment and anguish." The other side says "There is no god and anybody who believes in one must be a simple minded savage." I was raised into a secular family who believes in god and goes to church on occasion. They aren't fanatics or zealots by a long shot. I decided long ago that I would make up my own mind about what I believe. I think, like most of you atheists, that organized religion is full of hucksters and snake oil salesmen. I don't subscribe to one. But I feel like there is an intelligence that exists which we mere mortals cannot perceive. Not only can't we perceive it we can't even imagine it. I don't think it judges or hates. I believe that it just "IS". Call me new age or an existentialist or what the hell ever. Our arrogance as a species is constantly getting us into trouble and I try to keep my ego in check by reminding myself that god may or may not exist. We just don't know. Faith is a very abstract concept for humans. Religion is the opiate of the masses, and if it gives an individual comfort I see no problem with it. When anything, be it government or religion, tries to impose it's will through force.......it's a bad thing. Religion is a mask which some people hide behind in order to further some sort of agenda. We all have agendas.:peace:
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"Militant Atheism" is the raction to all the "Militant Belief" the past 20 centuries. Except we're not going around killing people for believing in imaginary friends. If we've put up with believers shit for that long, what makes you think opposition to this totally non violent atheist revolution that's emerged at the beginning of the 21st century (consequently around the same time widespread networking sites, ie, INFORMATION SHARING sites were primarily established) is justified? Believe what you want, like I've always said, it's when those beliefs get into my life that I have an issue with. You personally understand this, as the way you've described your specific style of belief is totally fine with me for the most part (we might have an issue if we discussed it further into the scientific arena, but for now it's fine). But this passive form of atheism that's been alive throughout the centuries has failed, I for one am sick of it. And today we have the capability to take it to the national level, and let the masses know it's OK, you don't have to submit to this perverted bullshit anymore. Like I said, this truly is a revolution.

One thing I did want to point out... "But I feel like there is an intelligence that exists which we mere mortals cannot perceive. Not only can't we perceive it we can't even imagine it." - you admit you can't perceive it, imagine it, see it, measure it, understand it, feel it, smell it, nothing... so what is the value in believing it exists?
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
growwwww said:
I use to be in a faith school and use to admire the religious people. We use to go on trips to really cool places and whatever. Until, my fascination with science/drugs came along. My own personal research debunked and de-bullshitted most of what these people who i thought were really cool had to say. WHy would you say never? its more like unlikely...In probable...
You are shiftily quoting shit here...I think its the first chapter in Richard Dawkins book, God Delussion, Which talks about how quotes are used so sneakily and misleading. It aint no fun to be done to :(
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I qualified my statement with the word Probably. Religion or a lack thereof has to be a personal thing. No one can tell you what you should or shouldn't believe. They may try but in reality it has to come from within. If you don't believe in god that's cool with me. Remember, I said I am not religious. I absolutely understand the thinking behind atheism and it's definitely more solid to the rational person than religion is. We aren't rational creatures however. I believe what I believe because I've been around long enough to formulate my own opinion. And at the end of the day that's all it is. The thing I take issue with is the lack of respect for each others position. I have many atheist friends whom I respect and admire deeply. I personally believe they are wrong but it's all good. Maybe I'm wrong. I also have many religious friends whom I respect and admire deeply. They know where I stand and they don't try to push me. Faith is not rational. It doesn't adhere to any science or logic. It is a profound feeling that one has which can't be explained or quantified. But it should be respected. And the lack of faith (although I believe that even with a lack of faith there is faith, faith that one is correct in their opinion) should be respected as well. And badmouth religion all you want there are good things that come from it. It ain't all crusades and jihad. :hug:
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
PadawanBater said:
"Militant Atheism" is the raction to all the "Militant Belief" the past 20 centuries. Except we're not going around killing people for believing in imaginary friends. If we've put up with believers shit for that long, what makes you think opposition to this totally non violent atheist revolution that's emerged at the beginning of the 21st century (consequently around the same time widespread networking sites, ie, INFORMATION SHARING sites were primarily established) is justified? Believe what you want, like I've always said, it's when those beliefs get into my life that I have an issue with. You personally understand this, as the way you've described your specific style of belief is totally fine with me for the most part (we might have an issue if we discussed it further into the scientific arena, but for now it's fine). But this passive form of atheism that's been alive throughout the centuries has failed, I for one am sick of it. And today we have the capability to take it to the national level, and let the masses know it's OK, you don't have to submit to this perverted bullshit anymore. Like I said, this truly is a revolution.

One thing I did want to point out... "But I feel like there is an intelligence that exists which we mere mortals cannot perceive. Not only can't we perceive it we can't even imagine it." - you admit you can't perceive it, imagine it, see it, measure it, understand it, feel it, smell it, nothing... so what is the value in believing it exists?
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I explained in my previous post that there is no value, except the understanding of our place in the universe, which I believe we all strive to understand in one way or another. :weed:
 
growwwww

growwwww

Well-Known Member
doc111 said:
I explained in my previous post that there is no value, except the understanding of our place in the universe, which I believe we all strive to understand in one way or another. :weed:
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Aye yes sir, so could one not say - letting go of the shit with virtually no proof. Is just a tiny step to what we as you say, all strive to understand, placement in the "universe" ?
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
growwwww said:
Aye yes sir, so could one not say - letting go of the shit with virtually no proof. Is just a tiny step to what we as you say, all strive to understand, placement in the "universe" ?
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I believe that however you arrive at transcendece, a greater peace, and a greater understanding of your place in the universe is the correct way. I don't see it in black and white. I don't believe there is a wrong or right way. :leaf:
 
morgentaler

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
doc111 said:
I believe that however you arrive at transcendece, a greater peace, and a greater understanding of your place in the universe is the correct way. I don't see it in black and white. I don't believe there is a wrong or right way. :leaf:
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Well it's simple. If it gets you there it's the "right way".

If it doesn't...


Of course, you assume that people have a place in the universe to understand....
 
morgentaler

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
doc111 said:
It is a profound feeling that one has which can't be explained or quantified. But it should be respected.
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Have I ever welcomed you to the chaos? Not sure if I ever did. Welcome :) I'm the bastard.

People have faith that if you rape a 10 year old virgin it will cure AIDS.

Do I respect that faith?

Others have faith that Jesus will come to the world after it is sunk into a world wide conflict, up to and including nuclear war. Some of those people are politicians.

Should I respect that faith?

A woman starved her children because she had faith that god would magically provide food to feed them.

Can't say that I respect any of those.


Could you provide me with the guidelines for distinguishing faith based beliefs and mental illness?


edit: And it scares me that any of the above views could be held by people deciding environmental and foreign policy, or in any way influencing the way children in our schools treat gay people, immigrants, etc. At least if someone is a racist without faith you can rip their argument to shreds.
 
growwwww

growwwww

Well-Known Member
Morgen says it like it is.

And, Doc, i donno about you,
but i think sexism is pretty wrong, i think homophobia is pretty wrong and i also think conditioning kids into shit when they are young is also pretty fucking wrong.

And i tell you what, ive met people who have actually given talks about why its so important to preach religion and to target kids at a young age. Unfourtantely these people are in schools as it happens.

Sad times.
 
jfgordon1

jfgordon1

Well-Known Member
growwwww said:
Morgen says it like it is.

And, Doc, i donno about you,
but i think sexism is pretty wrong, i think homophobia is pretty wrong and i also think conditioning kids into shit when they are young is also pretty fucking wrong.

And i tell you what, ive met people who have actually given talks about why its so important to preach religion and to target kids at a young age. Unfourtantely these people are in schools as it happens.

Sad times.
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Watch the docmmentary "Jesus Camp". You can see the fear the childrens eyes ... its freaky as shit.
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
PadawanBater said:
Aww man, I wholeheartedly disagree with that.

Faith should never be respected.
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If that's what you believe then I guess that makes you better than christians, muslims, or jews???? You have a right to your own opinion and I respect it.........I just don't agree with it.;-)

morgentaler said:
Well it's simple. If it gets you there it's the "right way".

If it doesn't...


Of course, you assume that people have a place in the universe to understand....
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Maybe we do, maybe we don't, I can't tell you that with any certainty one way or the other. I freely admit this.:bigjoint:

morgentaler said:
Have I ever welcomed you to the chaos? Not sure if I ever did. Welcome :) I'm the bastard.

People have faith that if you rape a 10 year old virgin it will cure AIDS.

Do I respect that faith? I certainly hope not.

Others have faith that Jesus will come to the world after it is sunk into a world wide conflict, up to and including nuclear war. Some of those people are politicians.

Should I respect that faith?

A woman starved her children because she had faith that god would magically provide food to feed them.

Can't say that I respect any of those.


Could you provide me with the guidelines for distinguishing faith based beliefs and mental illness?


edit: And it scares me that any of the above views could be held by people deciding environmental and foreign policy, or in any way influencing the way children in our schools treat gay people, immigrants, etc. At least if someone is a racist without faith you can rip their argument to shreds.
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Let's be reasonable, nobody said to respect these idiots who do dumb shit in the name of religion or government or whatever.

growwwww said:
Morgen says it like it is.

And, Doc, i donno about you,
but i think sexism is pretty wrong, i think homophobia is pretty wrong and i also think conditioning kids into shit when they are young is also pretty fucking wrong.

And i tell you what, ive met people who have actually given talks about why its so important to preach religion and to target kids at a young age. Unfourtantely these people are in schools as it happens.

Sad times.
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I think those things are wrong too. Some religious people do and some don't. You assume that every religous person is some bible thumping zealot with a crucifix in one hand and their trusty bible in the other. They aren't. Why do you paint all religion with such a bleak brush? I think that if a person is above what it is they claim to be above, they need to act it. Don't go throwing stones at the other just because of some bad experiences or whatever. :weed:
 
growwwww

growwwww

Well-Known Member
doc111 said:
If that's what you believe then I guess that makes you better than christians, muslims, or jews???? You have a right to your own opinion and I respect it.........I just don't agree with it.;-)

Maybe we do, maybe we don't, I can't tell you that with any certainty one way or the other. I freely admit this.:bigjoint:

Let's be reasonable, nobody said to respect these idiots who do dumb shit in the name of religion or government or whatever.

I think those things are wrong too. Some religious people do and some don't. You assume that every religous person is some bible thumping zealot with a crucifix in one hand and their trusty bible in the other. They aren't. Why do you paint all religion with such a bleak brush? I think that if a person is above what it is they claim to be above, they need to act it. Don't go throwing stones at the other just because of some bad experiences or whatever. :weed:
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Ive got nothing against nice people, just dont like religious people...RELIGIOUS.

Also about the place in the universe,

Pat Condell, Internet comedian/ Athiest puts it so fucking right.

I quote...

I’d say the purpose of life is joy in the present moment, and anyone who tells you different is a lying conniving asshole.


Im out ladies and gentleman.

Peace :weed:
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
growwwww said:
Ive got nothing against nice people, just dont like religious people...RELIGIOUS.

Also about the place in the universe,

Pat Condell, Internet comedian/ Athiest puts it so fucking right.

I quote...

I’d say the purpose of life is joy in the present moment, and anyone who tells you different is a lying conniving asshole.


Im out ladies and gentleman.

Peace :weed:
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I don't believe it's that simple. Maybe it is but I just have a problem with the fact that a giant explosion happened a really, really long time ago and somehow we have this perfect little habitat where everything is in such delicate balance. It's probably my tiny brain but I believe in something far greater than us or what we can imagine. I kind of stopped trying a long time ago. It's an exercise in futility. I've been in a lot of really hairy situations too and I have prayed even though I don't really know if it goes unheard. It gave me great comfort and peace and perhaps is an analgesic to the harsh realities of death and it's finality. :weed:
 
morgentaler

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
doc111 said:
Let's be reasonable, nobody said to respect these idiots who do dumb shit in the name of religion or government or whatever.
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Reasonable. That's the key word.

Since it has been reported that 40% of US citizens believe in item number 2, and hundreds of thousands at least believe in item number 1, does that mean I should respect their beliefs? Because they have numbers?

Should we created a table and mark the threshold at which we start respecting beliefs which are based on nothing?

How about:
1 million is a religion.
100,000 is a cult.
100 is a mass hallucination.
1 is mental illness.
 
morgentaler

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
doc111 said:
I don't believe it's that simple. Maybe it is but I just have a problem with the fact that a giant explosion happened a really, really long time ago and somehow we have this perfect little habitat where everything is in such delicate balance.
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Perfect?
You mean this habitat that regularly snuffs out the inhabitants?
An evolutionary stable system will fall into equilibrium but when something pushes it out of equilibrium, whether it's a bad winter or a texas sized rock falling out of the sky, it's chaotic until it falls back into balance.
Earth didn't change for us, we changed for earth. And if something changes our environment too quickly for us to adapt, we'll be history too.


It's probably my tiny brain but I believe in something far greater than us or what we can imagine. I kind of stopped trying a long time ago. It's an exercise in futility. I've been in a lot of really hairy situations too and I have prayed even though I don't really know if it goes unheard. It gave me great comfort and peace and perhaps is an analgesic to the harsh realities of death and it's finality. :weed:
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Just start a list of things you pray for, and see how many actually come true.
And look at the list rationally. If you pray to pass a test and you spend two weeks studying for it, it's not a huge leap to figure out that if you knew the answers to the questions and passed that it was your doing.

If you wrote: "The monkey sniffed it's finger" for all your answers and still passed, you can probably attribute that to prayer, or a teacher under the influence of powerful drugs.
 
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