Amendment 14 article 3

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member

'Appalling!': Historians torch Supreme Court's handling of Trump ballot case

MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell discusses the Supreme Court oral arguments on the case dealing with Donald Trump being removed from Colorado's presidential ballot by that state's Supreme Court with Harvard History Professor Drew Gilpin Faust and Yale History Professor David Blight.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Listening to Ari Melber go over what happened yesterday, I'm minded to listen to his description of the conundrum faced by SCOTUS over this. The vid begins at a time when he talks about the lack of process and clarity over legal standards for what to do and how to fairly decide when a person is disqualified.


The bit I'm referring to begins at 6:06 and goes to 7:17

So, no. I don't think this is over. Nor do am I convinced that SCOTUS is doing anything wrong by asking these questions or making a narrow ruling based upon the case it was presented yesterday.
The question about the evidentiary standard goes to the heart of the issue.

You know he spearheaded an insurrection.
I know he did it. On the face of it, the language of article 3 is simple.

But without an objective way, an articulated test or standard by which to answer y/n from a perspective in full accordance with precedent law (and above the turbulent politics that come with the question raised), the challenge is dead in the water.

My one cavil about the situation is what Kagan said about democracy. I don’t think voting on whether he did or didn’t run afoul of the insurrection clause is a correct application of democracy. The adults in the room need to figure out some way to filter the obvious insurrectionists out of the election process.

And there might not even be one. The Court might be grappling with the distinctly distasteful prospect that they and their successors might have to do the heavy lifting in each instance of possible invocation of the clause. From a historical perspective, this might be one of the toughest and most consequential cases the Court has ever faced. We live, alas, in interesting times.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member

Prof. Tribe on Trump ballot case: Colorado was doing its job applying the Constitution

MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell is joined by Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe to discuss the oral arguments at the Supreme Court in the case determining Donald Trump's eligibility to remain on the Colorado's presidential ballot.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
The question about the evidentiary standard goes to the heart of the issue.

You know he spearheaded an insurrection.
I know he did it. On the face of it, the language of article 3 is simple.

But without an objective way, an articulated test or standard by which to answer y/n from a perspective in full accordance with precedent law (and above the turbulent politics that come with the question raised), the challenge is dead in the water.

My one cavil about the situation is what Kagan said about democracy. I don’t think voting on whether he did or didn’t run afoul of the insurrection clause is a correct application of democracy. The adults in the room need to figure out some way to filter the obvious insurrectionists out of the election process.

And there might not even be one. The Court might be grappling with the distinctly distasteful prospect that they and their successors might have to do the heavy lifting in each instance of possible invocation of the clause. From a historical perspective, this might be one of the toughest and most consequential cases the Court has ever faced. We live, alas, in interesting times.
Addendum. Ideally, if a standard is put forth, it will deal with the fact that an insurrection isn’t a one-man show. Dozens of legislators and others* are called into the question as coconspirators. It would be salutary if they can be measured against the standard in a defined (and definitive) way.

*I am thinking specifically about Tony Ornato, who was in charge when the Secret Service lost about a day’s worth of internal communications at the critical time. That stinks of collusion.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Addendum. Ideally, if a standard is put forth, it will deal with the fact that an insurrection isn’t a one-man show. Dozens of legislators and others* are called into the question as coconspirators. It would be salutary if they can be measured against the standard in a defined (and definitive) way.

*I am thinking specifically about Tony Ornato, who was in charge when the Secret Service lost about a day’s worth of internal communications at the critical time. That stinks of collusion.
Once Jack convicts him of J6 crimes and indicts his cronies and others, he can then indict Trump for insurrection too after he gets a few convictions at his DC trial. If Trump were to win, it would increase the chances of him being refused the position, by congress and the courts and it would be one trial he would not be able to block. If he won, he would already be a convicted criminal under a life sentence for attacking the constitution and on trial as a criminal insurrectionist too. First get the fucker convicted ASAP and then worry about the rest.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Once Jack convicts him of J6 crimes and indicts his cronies and others, he can then indict Trump for insurrection too after he gets a few convictions at his DC trial. If Trump were to win, it would increase the chances of him being refused the position, by congress and the courts and it would be one trial he would not be able to block. If he won, he would already be a convicted criminal under a life sentence for attacking the constitution and on trial as a criminal insurrectionist too. First get the fucker convicted ASAP and then worry about the rest.
That would be nice, but it does nothing to address or advance putting an evidentiary standard in place for applying the salient bit of the Constitution to this case and concurrent or future suspected insurrectionists.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
That would be nice, but it does nothing to address or advance putting an evidentiary standard in place for applying the salient bit of the Constitution to this case and concurrent or future suspected insurrectionists.
It will deal with the current situation and congress can enact enabling legislation for the 14th, if the democrats win. If Trump is convicted, he can then be also charged with insurrection by the DOJ before the election. That would carry criminal sanctions as well as disqualification.
 

CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
My take on it, was they side stepped the issue and if they don't take his immunity case, they won't have to deal with it. If they don't take the immunity case, then Trump goes back to Chutkan for trial in May or June. He will be criminally convicted of J6 crimes before the election and maybe before the GOP convention. Once convicted, his chances of winning would be greatly diminished, and he might be broke by then too.

They can probably avoid the issue entirely, if they don't take up his immunity case next week, he will be convicted and probably lose the election, problem solved. A clever way to weasel out, but you can't have states disqualifying candidates because you know what the red states would do. Lincoln's election caused the civil war, and he wasn't on the ballot in a lot of southern states.
That's the point CJ Roberts made,that all these states would alter ballots to their liking and what a pandoras box we'd have here then,I now look at this court w/disdain as at the least it should be a 5-3 w/Garland on it,and if Obama could have convinced Ruth to retire then it'd be 4-4,I omit Roberts cause he is basically a peacemaker who if we had a 4-4 split would make rational decisions.Thomas,Alito,and the three Trumpers want to take us back to the stone age,corporations run amuk,political influence w/$$$$$$ unregulated etc. Using precedent when it suits them or flushing it if not and interpreting the Cons. literally when it suits and subjectively when it doesn't,all the while accepting perks from arch conservative billionaires. My lowest opinion of SCOTUS ever,they are in pocket.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
That's the point CJ Roberts made,that all these states would alter ballots to their liking and what a pandoras box we'd have here then,I now look at this court w/disdain as at the least it should be a 5-3 w/Garland on it,and if Obama could have convinced Ruth to retire then it'd be 4-4,I omit Roberts cause he is basically a peacemaker who if we had a 4-4 split would make rational decisions.Thomas,Alito,and the three Trumpers want to take us back to the stone age,corporations run amuk,political influence w/$$$$$$ unregulated etc. Using precedent when it suits them or flushing it if not and interpreting the Cons. literally when it suits and subjectively when it doesn't,all the while accepting perks from arch conservative billionaires. My lowest opinion of SCOTUS ever,they are in pocket.
They read the briefs, had meetings and settled on a strategy before the hearing began. Hopefully it included not hearing Trump's appeal on immunity and that will get the ball rolling, downhill and over Donald. That call by the appeals court on immunity was airtight and covered all the bases, no need to take it up. They were probably reading that one too, since it's been out, and they have access to it.
 
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cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
It will deal with the current situation
No.
and congress can enact enabling legislation for the 14th, if the democrats win.
A day late and a dollar short.
If Trump is convicted, he can then be also charged with insurrection by the DOJ before the election. That would carry criminal sanctions as well as disqualification.
He is on trial for obstruction of an official proceeding. I doubt that is sufficient grounds for disqualification under article 3.

Scotus has yet to hear one convict’s challenge to the correctness of even that charge. The crystal ball is cloudier than you represent.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
That's the point CJ Roberts made,that all these states would alter ballots to their liking and what a pandoras box we'd have here then,I now look at this court w/disdain as at the least it should be a 5-3 w/Garland on it,and if Obama could have convinced Ruth to retire then it'd be 4-4,I omit Roberts cause he is basically a peacemaker who if we had a 4-4 split would make rational decisions.Thomas,Alito,and the three Trumpers want to take us back to the stone age,corporations run amuk,political influence w/$$$$$$ unregulated etc. Using precedent when it suits them or flushing it if not and interpreting the Cons. literally when it suits and subjectively when it doesn't,all the while accepting perks from arch conservative billionaires. My lowest opinion of SCOTUS ever,they are in pocket.
So, you don't see that there is an issue over unequal standards for what may be considered disqualification? Selecting candidates through the primary system is not a trivial matter. And then what if Trump is nominated by the GOP? Does Colorado not have him on the ballot while California does?
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
No.A day late and a dollar short.
He is on trial for obstruction of an official proceeding. I doubt that is sufficient grounds for disqualification under article 3.

Scotus has yet to hear one convict’s challenge to the correctness of even that charge. The crystal ball is cloudier than you represent.
It is a pragmatic view, once he is convicted, then he can be slam dunked for insurrection via criminal prosecution, the only mechanism to do it. Nobody can get out from under a criminal conviction for insurrection and the 14th. We will see about immunity this week perhaps.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
It is a pragmatic view, once he is convicted, then he can be slam dunked for insurrection via criminal prosecution, the only mechanism to do it. Nobody can get out from under a criminal conviction for insurrection and the 14th. We will see about immunity this week perhaps.
why do you say the bolded? It's not so obvious that Trump is "slam dunk" certain of a guilty verdict for insurrection. Nor is it reasonable to assume that Smith decided to leave charges off the current indictment "because he can always come back and charge him later".
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
It is a pragmatic view, once he is convicted, then he can be slam dunked for insurrection via criminal prosecution, the only mechanism to do it. Nobody can get out from under a criminal conviction for insurrection and the 14th. We will see about immunity this week perhaps.
I guess immunity will not be granted. To disqualify him for insurrection, serial objectives must be attained.

1) There must be an indictment, superseding or freestanding.
2) A grand jury must recommend criminal charges.
3) DOJ must prosecute a criminal trial.
4) A petit jury must convict him.
4a) The judge must accept the verdict and go to sentencing.
5) The verdict and sentence must survive appeal.

Not one of these is a sure thing. Even if all proceeds to the sentence being imposed, it’ll take a long time. We’ve had multiple indications that this is an extraordinary trial, requiring extraordinary care by both the prosecution and the courts.

So Smith’s team is going for the charges most likely to lead to conviction, and the obstruction charge faces a serious challenge in Scotus. We’re in for a long and occasionally bumpy ride.
 

CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
So, you don't see that there is an issue over unequal standards for what may be considered disqualification? Selecting candidates through the primary system is not a trivial matter. And then what if Trump is nominated by the GOP? Does Colorado not have him on the ballot while California does?
Sure it's unequal,and if Pres. candidates are omitted from ballots in an election(in this case Trump) then we all know it's more courts/appeals and all his patented allegations concerning a rigged election. I think that's the only choice that could be made by the court to keep him on the ballot. I don't know if my rant about the state of the court sounded like i disagreed w/the decision. I'm starting to get dizzy over all these legalities spread over multiple cases criminal/civil,federal/state and the flood the zone appeals tactics Agent Orange is famous for,not to mention my respect for you lntellectually.
 
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