Aliens

Your Ideas and beliefs clearly indicate that there can't possibly be any other form of life out there that can figure out how to traverse the great expanse of space to visit other solar systems.

No, that's not what I've been saying at all. I pointed out the problem with traveling such distances using our current technology. Then the other problem with coming here in the first place. Finally the other problem with keeping it all a secret. None of which you've adequately answered. All you've given me so far are "maybe"'s or "what if"'s - which as I've been explaining the entire time is not science. We are talking about aliens from other planets, this is a scientific discussion, not a fantasy sci-fi one. You can sit here and speculate all day long and it won't get us anywhere, that's why I've been trying to steer the conversation away from doing that, won't you join me?

Dropastone said:

As for evidence in either case, yours or mine. I would have to say no one has any hard evidence to be tested that can be conclusive. All I have is the information I've posted in this thread that clearly goes unnoticed. The only other evidence I can see from your point of view or others on this thread is that we can't break the speed of light. To me that isn't hard evidence either because maybe you don't have to break the speed of light to travel from one solar system to the next.

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mindphuk said:

Assuming that there are beings within proximity to reach us, it seems to me very unlikely that any individual biologic organisms would come themselves. Sending out probes, perhaps millions of them, is a far more efficient, and reasonable way to explore. It is safer for them as well. They wouldn't have to worry about a toxic oxygen rich atmosphere like Earth has or the potential microorganisms that could be devastating to a species with a naive immune system. Remember, bacteria and viruses have been known to adapt very readily. We even have bacteria that can digest nylon, a synthetic. It makes me think that any form of life could be susceptible. Even if they aren't explorers but came here purposely because of our radio transmissions (much more unlikely as they would have to be within 200 light years), then probes are still the answer. The idea that a civilization as advanced as they are would come themselves I think stretches credibility. We are at a point where a possible future includes living completely in a virtual world, possibly uploading our consciousness to machines. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility some other civilization has already achieved similar ends.

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jrems said:

Oh yeah and if we do ever harness our own insecurities and stop destroying ourselves then I would guess that we would travel the stars seeking out new life and habitable planets to boldly go where someone undoubtedly already has!

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beardo said:

I would fuck a alien to

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mindphuk said:

You appear to be making a helluva lot of assumptions about me and what I know or believe. You appear to have taken my post as sarcasm. You would think people of the future would be able to get over themselves a bit more. Yes, that was sarcasm.

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mindphuk said:

wrt time travel. What is it that current scientists are missing? It seems to have been well-established that if backward time travel were possible, no one would be able to go back further than when the first time machine was built. It appears to be the only way to avoid paradoxes. Since it is obvious that we are wrong, what is the secret?

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tardis said:

Ok, i didn't know thats how you saw things. My host didn't see things that way and i'm limited to his mind (with mine of course of which I got no frame of refrence for reactions). Not true, wormholes plus expressions in both positive, negative, and dark energy (to use your words for the trinity) methods are possible. Wormholes can't be Created by any expression of dark energy (consciousness), but rather they exist in points where bent timespace crosses itself... you see timespace has direction and since the limits of the outerverse put the form like a flower into play the petals begin and start with eachother... think an oval circling into the shape of a flower then add a spiral up (its kinda a universal consistent I figured your time figured out already). Now the times when these spaces cross are set, they are a part of the development of the universe, like a skipping frame within a film. Its ingraned, can't be changed.

Time travel happens, but we got very very little options to where and when we can go. that last true solid crossing was both approx 6,000 years ago and approx 24,000 years from now.

There is no way to create a paradox anymore then you could re-write the shape of the rings within an already grown tree. What happens happend, those "what if" science equations were built by the current human need to find something that doesn't make sense to create this God that is both a manifestation of mankind and outside of mankinds time at the same time. A Loop for lack of a better english word. (loops are one of the many patterns that exist throughout all levels of all 3 realities).

Now dark energy, to help make this make sense, peeks into both positive and anti mater universes. As both consciousness and the battery that keeps it moving (it moves backwards so that we can move forward... think a jar with sand on top and water below airtight, the sand would displace the water upwards. As dark energy pushes time forward and also expresses itself in consciousness within both. This is very hard to translate as its something i've never had to say or was never taught to me. It is a given that we know this as it is a given that you are able to understand what language is without it being explained, you move on from it as you mind knows it.

oh yes, one friend of mine was known in history as Aristotle. He retired like I in his time and didn't know of himself before going. I watched him (angel like invisible), and he didn't drink the lead laden water that made the human he mused (plato) go mad and misunderstand many of his suggestions. He thought he would create a paradox so as to go home. He convinced a young prince to take over the world and destroy everything in its path making all light skinned so as to wipe out a reboot for his soul. of course it didn't always work. He knew better but we didn't know enough yet and he was young. He lost some of his spark going there, something we had not counted on but which explained what happend to us. Some might say that the unvierse changed history but our records from antimater show this is not true, nothing was ever changed.....

I do not know what exactly you want. My host for lack of a better word doesn't know enough of the words I need to explain this to you. Perhaps if you were him you would want things that benefited you like stock numbers...

How about this, what little we do truely know from your age (despite how much we thought we knew) I do know that the President was Rubio when the western world changed forever. I just retire here because this spot was protected. Don't worry about it, it doesn't change much and I can't change any future outcome nor do I have any desire to, i'm just saying I got a golden ticket because I took a one way trip so i got access most didn't. As for all the info I have I think i've used it all up to any benefit it could give my host. and if you are still reading this PSYCH, not true, all a troll to remind you not to beleive everything you read.

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Dropastone said:

@ pad. Your problem is that you can only think in the here and now within our own solar system. It's not wrong to think that there May be life out there that is way more advanced than us and Could have figured out how to travel to different solar systems or to different galaxies for that matter, other than obtaining the speed of light to do it. To think our civilization is the final word in space travel is just foolish in my opinion. I may not have the facts you you seek but it doesn't mean it can't be done.

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Dropastone said:

Do you think a race 1 billion years more advanced than us could possibly achieve interstellar space travel using worm holes or warp drive technology? Or even some other advanced technology our little feeble minds haven't even begun to consider?

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Dropastone said:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]wormhole[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

A hypothetical "tunnel" connecting two different points in spacetime in such a way that a trip through the wormhole could take much less time than a journey between the same starting and ending points in normal space. The ends of a wormhole could, in theory, be intra-universe (i.e. both exist in the same universe) or inter-universe (exist in different universes, and thus serve as a connecting passage between the two).

Wormholes arise as solutions to the equations of Einstein's general theory of relativity. In fact, they crop up so readily in this context that some theorists are encouraged to think that real counterparts may eventually be found or fabricated and, perhaps, used for high-speed space travel and/or time travel. However, a known property of wormholes is that they are highly unstable and would probably collapse instantly if even the tiniest amount of matter, such as a single photon, attempted to pass through them. A possible way around this problem is the use of exotic matter to prevent the wormhole from pinching off.

A brief history of wormholes

The theory of wormholes goes back to 1916, shortly after Einstein published his general theory, when Ludwig Flamm, an obscure Austrian physicist, looked at the simplest possible solution of Einstein's field equations, known as the Schwarzschild solution (or Schwarzschild metric). This describes the gravitational field around a spherically-symmetric non-rotating mass. If the mass is sufficiently compact, the solution describes a particular form of the phenomenon now called a black hole – the Schwarzschild black hole. Flamm realized that Einstein's equations allowed a second solution, now known as a white hole, and that the two solutions, describing two different regions of (flat) spacetime were connected (mathematically) by a spacetime conduit.1 Because the theory has nothing to say about where these regions of spacetime might be in the real world, the black hole "entrance" and white hole "exit" could be in different parts of the same universe or in entirely different universes.

In 1935, Einstein and Nathan Rosen further explored, it can be appreciated with hindsight, the theory of intra- or inter-universe connections in a paper2 whose actual purpose was to try to explain fundamental particles, such as electrons, in terms of spacetime tunnels threaded by electric lines of force. Their work gave rise to the formal name Einstein-Rosen bridge for what the physicist John Wheeler would later call a "wormhole." (Wheeler also coined the terms "black hole" and "quantum foam".) Wheeler's 1955 paper3 discusses wormholes in terms of topological entities called geons and, incidentally, provides the first (now familiar) diagram of a wormhole as a tunnel connecting two openings in different regions of spacetime.

Traversable wormholes

Interest in so-called traversable wormholes gathered pace following the publication of a 1987 paper by Michael Morris, Kip Thorne, and Uri Yertsever (MTY) at the California Institute of Technology.4, 5 This paper stemmed from an inquiry to Thorne by Carl Sagan who was mulling over a way of conveying the heroine in his novel Contact across interstellar distances at trans-light speed. Thorne gave the problem to his Ph.D. students, Michael Morris and Uri Yertsever, who realized that such a journey might be possible if a wormhole could be held open long enough for a spacecraft (or any other object) to pass through. MTY concluded that to keep a wormhole open would require matter with a negative energy density and a large negative pressure – larger in magnitude than the energy density. Such hypothetical matter is called exotic matter.

Although the existence of exotic matter is speculative, a way is known of producing negative energy density: the Casimir effect. As a source for their wormhole, MTY turned to the quantum vacuum. "Empty space" at the smallest scale, it turns out, is not empty at all but seething with violent fluctuations in the very geometry of spacetime. At this level of nature, ultra-small wormholes are believed to continuously wink into and out of existence. MTY suggested that a sufficiently advanced civilization could expand one of these tiny wormholes to macroscopic size by adding energy. Then the wormhole could be stabilized using the Casimir effect by placing two charged superconducting spheres in the wormhole mouths. Finally, the mouths could be transported to widely-separated regions of space to provide a means of FTL communication and travel. For example, a mouth placed aboard a spaceship might be carried to some location many light-years away. Because this initial trip would be through normal spacetime, it would have to take place at sublight speeds. But during the trip and afterwards instantaneous communication and transport through the wormhole would be possible. The ship could even be supplied with fuel and provisions through the mouth it was carrying. Also, thanks to relativistic time-dilation, the journey need not take long, even as measured by Earth-based observers. For example, if a fast starship carrying a wormhole mouth were to travel to Vega, 25 light-years away, at 99.995% of the speed of light (giving a time-dilation factor of 100), shipboard clocks would measure the journey as taking just three months. But the wormhole stretching from the ship to Earth directly links the space and time between both mouths – the one on the ship and the one left behind on (or near) Earth. Therefore, as measured by Earthbound clocks too, the trip would have taken only three months – three months to establish a more-or-less instantaneous transport and communications link between here and Vega.

Star Trek's Deep Space 9 is located alongside a natural wormhole that leads to the other side of the Galaxy Of course, the MTY scheme is not without technical difficulties, one of which is that the incredibly powerful forces needed to hold the wormhole mouths open might tear apart anything or anyone that tried to pass through. In an effort to design a more benign environment for travelers using a wormhole, Matt Visser of Washington University in St. Louis conceived an arrangement in which the spacetime region of a wormhole mouth is flat (and thus force-free) but framed by struts of exotic matter that contain a region of very sharp curvature.6 Visser envisages a cubic design, with flat-space wormhole connections on the square sides and cosmic strings as the edges. Each cube-face may connect to the face of another wormhole-mouth cube, or the six cube faces may connect to six different cube faces in six separated locations.

Given that our technology is not yet up to the task of building a wormhole subway, the question arises of whether they might already exist. One possibility is that advanced races elsewhere in the Galaxy or beyond have already set up a network of wormholes that we could learn to use. Another is that wormholes might occur naturally. David Hochberg and Thomas Kephart of Vandebilt University have discovered that, in the earliest moments of the Universe, gravity itself may have given rise to regions of negative energy in which natural, self-stabilizing wormholes may have formed. Such wormholes, created in the Big Bang, might be around today, spanning small or vast distances in space.[/FONT]

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Dropastone said:

Physicists outline how to manipulate the fabric of space to accelerate a craft faster than the speed of light -- in theory, anyway.

The Alcubierre drive, as it's known, involves expanding the fabric of space behind a ship into a bubble and shrinking space-time in front of the ship.
www.orbitalvector.com

It is possible to travel faster than light. You just wouldn't travel faster than light.
Seems strange, but by manipulating extra dimensions with astronomical amounts of energy, two Baylor University physicists have outlined how a faster-than-light engine, or warp drive, could be created that would bend but not break the laws of physics.
"We think we can create an effective warp drive, based on general relatively and string theory," said Gerald Cleaver, coauthor of the paper that recently appeared on the preprint server ArXiv.org

The warp engine is based on a design first proposed in1994 by Michael Alcubierre. The Alcubierre drive, as it's known, involves expanding the fabric of space behind a ship into a bubble and shrinking space-time in front of the ship. The ship would rest in between the expanding and shrinking space-time, essentially surfing down the side of the bubble.
The tricky part is that the ship wouldn't actually move; space itself would move underneath the stationary spacecraft. A beam of light next to the ship would still zoom away, same as it always does, but a beam of light far from the ship would be left behind.
That means that the ship would arrive at its destination faster than a beam of light traveling the same distance, but without violating Einstein's relativity, which says that it would take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate an object with mass to the speed of light, since the ship itself isn't actually moving.

The fabric of space has moved faster than light before, says Cleaver, right after the Big Bang, when the universe expanded faster than the speed of light.

"We're recreating the inflationary period of the universe behind the ship," said Cleaver.
While the theory rests on relatively firm ground, the next question is how do you expand space behind the ship and contract it in front of the ship?

Cleaver and Richard Obousy, the other coauthor, propose manipulating the 11th dimension, a special theoretical construct of m-theory (the offspring of string theory), to create the bubble the ship would surf down.

If the 11th dimension could be shrunk behind the ship it would create a bubble of dark energy, the same dark energy that is causing the universe to speed up as time goes on. Expanding the 11th dimension in front of the ship would eventually cause it to decrease, although two separate steps are required.

Exactly how the 11th dimension would be expanded and shrunk is still unknown.
"These calculations are based on some arbitrary advance in technology or some alien technology that would let us manipulate the extra dimension," said Cleaver.

What the scientists were able to estimate was the amount of energy necessary, if the technology was available, to change these dimensions: about 10^45 joules.

"That's about the amount of energy you'd get if you converted the entire mass of Jupiter into pure energy via E = mc^2," said Cleaver, an energy far beyond anything humanity can currently envision creating.

While the challenges to creating a warp drive are quite formidable, the concept is intriguing, says Tufts University theoretical physicist Lawrence Ford.

"If there are extra dimensions and we could manipulate them, that would open up all sorts of exciting possibilities," said Ford.

"I don't see this leading immediately to a warp drive, but I could see it leading to other interesting possibilities in basic scientific research," said Ford.

Cleaver agrees that the creation of a real warp drive is still far away.

"Warp drive isn't doable now, and probably won't be for the next several millenia," said Cleaver.

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Dropastone said:

I'm glad I don't have to rely on a great mind such as yours to advance our civilization.

Enough said, I'm done and I won't reply to any more of your nonsense.

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RavenMochi said:

as logical as that all sounds, it ignores history. the first chance we got to put a man on the moon, we did. and it wasn't even really for practical reasons, we just wanted to be able to tell the world we did it first. Pure pride,and nothing else. Not knowing anything about any of the other "races" that exist we can't really understand their motives to say. maybe to them at this point in their development its no big thing. maybe to them we're like some twisted up nature reserve, the subject of a show on their discovery channel equivalent... I can tell you this we as a species aren't content with just sending probes to mars, and there is now an initiative to get men to mars in the next 20 years. so what I'm getting at, is if we right now had the technology to travel to another solar system to study a planet with developing intelligent life, we would do it. So why wouldn't they again? I don't think people will as a race upload themselves to a machine....don't get me wrong, we'll be able to, and some will do it, but you'll never get everyone to, who would watch the servers? now data loss could wipe out hundreds of lives....more dangerous then I think you realize.

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mindphuk said:

I am looking at history as my guide. We went to the moon, a relatively close place that had been studied from Earth for many years prior to going. We did so mostly because of the Cold War. Every other planet and moon we have visited has been with probes. You mention Mars, a place which we would never visit if our robots didn't go first to give us the detailed information we need. You also appear to attribute human characteristics to an alien species, something that cannot be done. We are a curious race and have what seems like an innate desire to explore. That doesn't mean aliens are going to want to explore, they may only want to visit to obtain resources or conquer inferior species.
I'm not saying that a species will never travel themselves, I'm saying that in order to determine suitability and give them a reason to go somewhere, a probe will be the one to visit first. Most people cannot really fathom the vastness of space, the distances between stars. There is a LOT of real estate to cover and if any aliens want to check out our solar system over the other million or so choices they have, they would most likely send robotic probes first. Even if they are explorers like us, they have no reason to explore our little outpost on the edge of the galaxy unless they found a particular reason to come here. How are they going to know there's intelligent life here to study from their home world? Like I said, unless they are within 200 light years, they won't have received any radio transmissions yet.

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Padawanbater2 said:

Fuck, and you still don't get it...

Thank you for wasting a good 3 or 4 hours of my life, buddy.

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