Abortion, if you object does that mean you want to control women's uteri

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
No need to be an ass about this.

You really don't see the difference between deliberate third-party surgical extraction of a viable fetus and some woman walking on stairs?
all life is precious.

if we are going to impose our morality on women and strip them of their autonomy, we can't let them "accidentally" fall down the stairs and abort their child. these women can't be trusted. they throw away these fetuses like they were an old kleenex.

unless, of course, you are all for letting women backdoor abortion themselves on uneven sidewalks , in which case you are a monster who eats fetuses for recreation.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
The issue isn't autonomy over their bodies, but the rights of unborn humans.
no, i'm pretty sure this is about the autonomy of women being usurped by gaylord morality police.

do you think women are stupid or something? that they can't be trusted with these decisions?
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
that does seem to be one plank from what i've seen. they say the free market will fix it all. just like magic. no need to do anything, the free market will sort it all out.

but god forbid we extend too much liberty to murderous women, all chomping at the bit to kill their fetuses and whatnot.
You want murder to be legal. . .you're actually making this argument with a straight face?

Just because there is a market for something (eg contract killing) doesn't mean it should be legal or freely available. I have yet to meet any free market advocate who espouses ZERO regulation.

Of course there are nutters on the fringe, but even advocates of "free markets" still concede that the markets have to operate under fixed rules, and therefore SOME regulation is necessary. You just want the minimum necessary to ensure the smooth operation of the market in question.

Back on the issue of abortion, in fact "free market" DOES affect abortions and to a great extent.

As I mentioned earlier, even though the law in some jurisdictions permits abortions up to 25(+) weeks, doesn't mean abortion is actually available that late.

Also, just because abortion is legal, doesn't mean its available. There are plenty of places in the USA where nobody provides abortions because the doctors there don't want to do them.

If you're really "pro-choice", then you have to respect the "choice" of physicians who don't want to kill fetuses professionally.
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
no, i'm pretty sure this is about the autonomy of women being usurped by gaylord morality police.

do you think women are stupid or something? that they can't be trusted with these decisions?
Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

Answer my questions, and I'll answer yours.

a. Should infanticide be legal? Yes or no.
b. What is the maximum gestational age in weeks, you believe abortion should be legal?
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
First of all, I didn't propose this 12 week limit (nor do I agree with it, but that's a separate issue). The issue isn't autonomy over their bodies, but the rights of unborn humans.

Lets be specific here. Would you say its OK to kill a live baby right after birth? (IE infanticide)?

OK, if you think that should be illegal, how about abortion of a an eight pound pre-term fetus that is 39 weeks old? (IE one day before its expected to be born). Would you agree that this should be illegal too? If not, please state why not.

OK, how about 37 weeks? 36? 35? 34?

The point is, you have to draw the line somewhere. . .exactly where is subject to another debate, I won't get into in this post.

But whatever your limit is. . .be it 12 weeks or 32 weeks, you make it into law, and enforce it the same way the current 24 week law is enforced in most states.

It becomes illegal to perform an abortion after 12 weeks, and if you do so you're subject to criminal charges. Since doctors generally won't risk their livelihoods and freedom over this, the supply of post-12 week abortion providers dries up and post-12 week abortions become much harder to obtain, and much rarer. What exact charges? Not that it really matters, but practicing surgery without a medical license carries a criminal sanction ranging from 1-5 years in prison in most states. The criminal penalty associated with illegal abortion varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but it definitely can carry jail time.

Do you find this concept difficult to understand too?

Let me add that as a matter of practice most doctors who do perform abortions won't perform them as late as 24 weeks, except under extraordinary circumstances, even when they are legally permitted to do so.
I used to believe it was the moment of consciousness, although that limit is relatively vague as it stands. Could be 8 weeks, could be 12 weeks, could be 6 weeks... nobody really knows for sure..

But as a viable human being myself, having lived my life, I can't recall anything from age 5 or below, really. My viewpoint has shifted to full term, or nearly full term. 35 weeks, 36.. 37.. 40 weeks is full term, but I still believe the limit should be at 39. It's a viable fetus, no doubt, it will most likely survive outside the womb, but my reasons lie beyond a 'fetus' rights'. Myself included. Had I been a 39 week old fetus and my mom wanted to abort me, I don't think any government should tell her that's illegal, as, at that point, it is still a part of her body. She has every right to do so if she decides as much.

Consider all the unwanted children that are born, at a certain point, we have to think about everyone else, not just ourselves. A drop in the ocean isn't much, but when it's a billion, several billion drops, the drops add up, unwanted children soak up resources, space, time, effort. I look at it from a logical perspective, not some made up biblical perspective. Life, I'm afraid to tell you, is not special, it's not sacred, it simply is. No need to treat it as such. Life will be here long after you're gone. Why demand ALL LIFE be permitted to exist, when some of it simply shouldn't? "Who am I to decide which life stays and goes?"?, I'm a rational human being not constricted by the modern day taboos of traditional religious dogmas. Concerned with the well being of existing life on this planet. Future life takes a second class seat to prosperity. Deal with it. 7 billion and counting demands favoritism. Until you figure out a way to feed, clothe, and house all of us, shut the fuck up with your imaginary, immoral, figurative justifications for creating all of us.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
You want murder to be legal. . .you're actually making this argument with a straight face?

Just because there is a market for something (eg contract killing) doesn't mean it should be legal or freely available. I have yet to meet any free market advocate who espouses ZERO regulation.

Of course there are nutters on the fringe, but even advocates of "free markets" still concede that the markets have to operate under fixed rules, and therefore SOME regulation is necessary. You just want the minimum necessary to ensure the smooth operation of the market in question.

Back on the issue of abortion, in fact "free market" DOES affect abortions and to a great extent.

As I mentioned earlier, even though the law in some jurisdictions permits abortions up to 25(+) weeks, doesn't mean abortion is actually available that late.

Also, just because abortion is legal, doesn't mean its available. There are plenty of places in the USA where nobody provides abortions because the doctors there don't want to do them.

If you're really "pro-choice", then you have to respect the "choice" of physicians who don't want to kill fetuses professionally.
should i also respect the choice of christians who murder abortion doctors?

how about the choice of similar christians who post the information, including names, addresses, phone numbers, and information about the doctor's family to militant anti-abortion websites, basically teasing and goading them into their righteous killings?
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

Answer my questions, and I'll answer yours.

a. Should infanticide be legal? Yes or no.
b. What is the maximum gestational age in weeks, you believe abortion should be legal?
a. do you mean killing babies that are already born? no, i oppose that. i believe the baby should be locked in a cage, veal style, and force fed a high fat diet so that its meat may plump up before i serve it for christmas dinner.

b. i think whoever is pregnant can make that choice, no need to impose my beliefs on someone else. i ain't carrying the thing.
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
all life is precious.
I'm not making that claim.

if we are going to impose our morality on women and strip them of their autonomy, we can't let them "accidentally" fall down the stairs and abort their child. these women can't be trusted. they throw away these fetuses like they were an old kleenex.
Putting term limits on abortion doesn't strip any woman of autonomy; it just forces them to make their decision within a fixed time period.

At what point do fetuses deserve legal protection? Is there one?
 

timbo123

Active Member
should i also respect the choice of christians who murder abortion doctors?

how about the choice of similar christians who post the information, including names, addresses, phone numbers, and information about the doctor's family to militant anti-abortion websites, basically teasing and goading them into their righteous killings?
Buck. Are you really saddened by the death of a murdered abortion Dr? Do you truly find life to be precious for everyone but the baby who has yet to emerge from the gestator? Death penalty for convicted murderers... are you for or against?
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
I'm not making that claim.


Putting term limits on abortion doesn't strip any woman of autonomy; it just forces them to make their decision within a fixed time period.

At what point do fetuses deserve legal protection? Is there one?
i'd rather reserve the legal protection for the person that is already alive, rather than the thing that is maybe alive and could take mommy out (without warning, sometimes) on their way to this mortal coil.

and yes, imposing your morality at some arbitrary week does strip women of their ability to exercise control over their own bodies after that arbitrary time frame has passed.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Buck. Are you really saddened by the death of a murdered abortion Dr? Do you truly find life to be precious for everyone but the baby who has yet to emerge from the gestator? Death penalty for convicted murderers... are you for or against?
of course i'm saddened by the murder of an abortion doctor.

i am against the death penalty in all cases.

a fetus is not a baby. a baby is a baby and a fetus is a fetus. let's restrain ourselves from using loaded language.
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
a. do you mean killing babies that are already born? no, i oppose that. i believe the baby should be locked in a cage, veal style, and force fed a high fat diet so that its meat may plump up before i serve it for christmas dinner.
Nice to see this is all a joke to you and you aren't even trying to make good faith arguments.

b. i think whoever is pregnant can make that choice, no need to impose my beliefs on someone else. i ain't carrying the thing.
I see. All your morality is relative.

Would you agree that killing a baby, say, five minutes before its born is "imposing your beliefs on someone else"?


should i also respect the choice of christians who murder abortion doctors?
So let me get this straight.

You equate the murder of physicians with the refusal of physicians to perform abortions?

If you're asking my opinion, murder should be illegal. I'm also of the opinion, that it isn't particularly "Christian", but again, that's a different argument.


how about the choice of similar christians who post the information, including names, addresses, phone numbers, and information about the doctor's family to militant anti-abortion websites, basically teasing and goading them into their righteous killings?
Again, harrassment and incitement to murder are illegal, and should be.
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
a fetus is not a baby. a baby is a baby and a fetus is a fetus. let's restrain ourselves from using loaded language.
OK.

Do you have any issue with killing a full term "fetus" DURING routine labor and delivery? Do you think that's purely a matter of conscience between the mother and the physician?

This isn't a purely hypothetical question, because this sort of thing actually happens (though it is illegal in the USA).
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
Padawan,
Why not kill youself right now and save the rest if us from having to endure your bullshit posts? You're a waste who's using up resources from someone who'll actually benefit humanity. You're just one of billions. There's several billion on this planet with better skills. You won't be remembered like Einstein, Sagan, Pasteur or Watson, etc. Your life is shit. Please, practice what you preach. There's plenty of websites which tell you how to kill youself easily and painlessly. Even cleanly too so your family doesn't have a mess to clean up. It's your duty to humanity!
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
OK.

Do you have any issue with killing a full term "fetus" DURING routine labor and delivery? Do you think that's purely a matter of conscience between the mother and the physician?

This isn't a purely hypothetical question, because this sort of thing actually happens (though it is illegal in the USA).
doesn't involve me, so it doesn't matter what i think.
 

Carne Seca

Well-Known Member
Padawan,
Why not kill youself right now and save the rest if us from having to endure your bullshit posts? You're a waste who's using up resources from someone who'll actually benefit humanity. You're just one of billions. There's several billion on this planet with better skills. You won't be remembered like Einstein, Sagan, Pasteur or Watson, etc. Your life is shit. Please, practice what you preach. There's plenty of websites which tell you how to kill youself easily and painlessly. Even cleanly too so your family doesn't have a mess to clean up. It's your duty to humanity!
I thought all life was precious to you? Aren't you a Holy Vegan?
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
i'd rather reserve the legal protection for the person that is already alive, rather than the thing that is maybe alive and could take mommy out (without warning, sometimes) on their way to this mortal coil.
So a 39 week old fetus (that has a beating heart, sleep/wake cycles, opens and shuts its eyes, sucks its thumb, yawns, kicks, grabs things, responds to voices, and would be a "baby" immediately ex utero) isn't "alive" then? OK. .


and yes, imposing your morality at some arbitrary week does strip women of their ability to exercise control over their own bodies after that arbitrary time frame has passed.
This is absurd.

All law is consensual morality. Otherwise, as you say, what's wrong with killing abortion doctors or gays? Abortion law reflects a democratic consensus of adult voters.

Next, abortion term restriction isn't "arbitrary"; in most jurisdictions the law is specifically set at a gestational age believed to reflect the minimum possible age a fetus could survive outside the womb. How the procedure is actually done is dependent on gestational age too, and the older the fetus the harder it is to do the procedure AND the more risky to the mother. (Yes, while generally safer than childbirth, abortion isn't risk-free, either).

Lastly, setting the max gestational age at 25 weeks in practice isn't really the limiting factor. By that time the mother has had fully six months to come to terms with pregnancy and make a decision. That's not exactly a "rush" decision, depriving a woman of "control".

As a matter of practice, something like 90% of abortions are done before the end of 12 weeks, and only a little more than 1% after 20 weeks. In most cases, the really late term abortions are done when a serious defect comes to light, and those typically aren't detectable until after the end of the first trimester.
 
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